Japanese Morning Glory Conundrum

I was shopping on ebay and noticed Morning glory Japan is upset about the Japanese Morning glory being given American names. They don`t like the names because the varieties don`t exist in Japan. I`m wondering and puzzling over this. I`m aware that the Japanese growers are light years ahead of us as far as the knowledge and details of each variety and how they came about. I respect them and hold them in high esteem. I`d love it if the folks in Japan would provide an informative book on Japanese Morning Glories,what it means to be a Japanese Morning Glory and exactly what the varieties are and How to grow them and keep them pure and true to type. That would be awesome. I know hand pollination or growing inside a greenhouse is one way to keep varieties true. I also know they happen to grow certain varieties pure and do crosses in order to get certain varieties. I feel like Americans would benefit from shared knowledge from Japan because that would be the only way to keep the flowers true to type. I suspect they also want to keep the market cornered so maybe they don`t want to tell too many secrets?

Another thought I have is the fact that these imported seeds do not need to loose their value and become "trash" soon after sprouting in American soil. It truly concerns me.

Another idea I have is I would like to have the liberty of allowing some of the imported seeds from Japan to gain American citizenship and become "americanized" if you will. So then perhaps I shouldn`t refer to them as "Japanese" once I have over years of time selected and hand pollinated and continued to select according to my own needs in my American garden?

How should I refer to seeds of plants I have crossed and recrossed and selected over time for characteristics I like for myself and they no longer look just like a Japanese variety? Should I just call them Ipomoea Nils?I can`t call them a Japanese variety anymore because they are mixed and I can`t call them American because my parent plants came from Japan? I`m confused here.


So what should be done if you just want to sell some mixed open pollinated seeds? Should you just call them Ipomoea nils? or what???

gardener2005 - Good questions that deserve equally good answers...did you already read the thread I responded to that resulted from the same entities in japan claiming 'lordship' over the term 'imperialis'(?)...

What is a Japanese Morning Glory anyway(?)...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/581971/

I also noticed that the e-bay merchants recently offered the Ipomoea hederifolia yellow and guess what 'THEY' were calling it(?)

A Japanese(!) Morning Glory...(!?!?)...

How is this possible(?)...especially following on the heels of the 'feud' with the 'other' merchant of JMG's over suppossed 'correct' terminology...

I see that they very often mislist Ipomoea nil as I.purpurea and vice versa...how is it that such 'japanese experts' cannot properly tell the difference between species(!),but yet want to presume(!) to declare some accuracy(?!?) regarding some > e-bay motivated(!) makeshift 'international rules' (!)...they have a very long(!) way to go and learn(!) before any more equally innaccurate 'snooty'(!) presumptions are declared...

People in Japan make alot of mistakes/blunders >just like people anywhere(!) else(!) in this world...

I'm very aware of the 'perceptual' differences that are present in this situation,but I think these people need to put alot higher quality rationale into their replies,before they just 'spout out' statements which lack a concrete objective factual foundation...

I've noticed alot(!) of inconsistencies in the statements of these and other people from Japan...who >although they may be from 'japan' >this does not automatically make them 'experts' on Japanese Morning Glories or Morning Glories in general...the official asagao clubs in Japan disagree over names and will often use the name applied by a local club in preference to a name applied by a 'different' club...

I very often see very innaccurate taxanomic ID's applied by asagao growers on websites in japan...Hmmm(!)...you would think 'they' would know better...but guess what >they very often don't...despite the long history of asagao growing in japan...

I fervently agree that co-operation is best,but so far I've not seen evidence of the type of objectivity that is required from any(!) of the e-bay merchants...just because someone is 'japanese' does not 'ipso facto' make them any better than anyone else...they don't 'walk on water'...

Dr.Yoneda used to 'think',believe and publish that Ipomoea nil originated in Asia...thankfully after collaborating with Proff. Daniel F. Austin,they both co-authored in professional peer reviewed journals that in fact DNA analysis of all specimens studied showed that Ipomoea nil originated in South America...quite aways from Asia...Dr.Yoneda also stopped using the long outdated term Pharbitis nil to refer to Ipomoea nil...but many people in Japan and other places still cling to long antiquated 'notions'...this may be considered culturally 'cute',but it is not scientifically accurate...

There are many of the Japanese type or style MG's that do not require any 'expert' from japan to remain true to type...just keeping the strain or cultivar 'pure' by controlled pollination is quite sufficient...

There are certain cultivars and types that do require familiarity with the traits and breeding techniques to continue to produce the type...

There are books in the japanese language about growing morning glories and although helpful as far as growing tips and regarding certain techniques they evidence the same outdated terminology and 'cultural bias'...I've often wondered 'just how' truly 'objectively accurate' the Japanese definition of a "Japanese Morning Glory" would be...would their definition hold up to serious critical objective analytical thought...(!!??)...

So,should we apply US human immigration law(?)...dog and/or other animal breeding standards(?)...something resembling the standards adopted by the official US Horticultural Societies and International plant cultivar registries for other plant groups(?)...

The strain specific alpha-numeric ID's applied by Kyushu University > who have analyzed and documented the main genes responsible for the particular type features > carry alot more credibility with me than any of the 'common names' applied by any other groups or growers...

My perspective is >get real or 'get lost'...as far as objective credibility(aka as 'saving face') goes...hopefully they won't have any problems with continuing to 'move their bowels' >no hari kari necessary...you are what you eat > so eat good(!) and > just keep it healthy(!) and real...


Begs the Question >How many Japanese experts does it take to tell a Real Japanese Morning Glory...(!?!)...or how many different 'real' colors(!) do they turn and show when presented with this 'type' > Question(!) >maybe we can get real good humor if we can't get real objectivity...

more on this entire situation later...

TTY,...

Ron



This message was edited Dec 16, 2006 5:03 PM

LOL Claps

I am so glad that this has been dragged into the sunlight. We have culture clash here and , there is no dignified way of rectofying it. LORDSHIP OVER A GERMPLASM THAT IS INSULAR?. I thought Hiro Hito surrenderred??? I have glimpsed the booklets they publish in JAPAN, but they do not publish it in any other language. Maybe we should boycott introduced seeds untill they publish in English. MAKE THEM TRANSLATE THEIR NAMES INTO ENGLISH ! HOW could they possibly be offended if we finally do what they themselves should have done before they offer on Ebay, seeds in a foreign name, and we translate in the native Ebay language. They don't ;t mind converting to our currency for Ebay, so why not translate the name of their mgs into english at the same time. I think the answer is that they have financial skills but not language skills. $15/seed, and no english name? This is an insult to Ebay. Frank

Thanks Emma for directing me to this thread.

Wow. This is something to think about! I appreciate the views on this subject.

I`m sorting seeds right now so these thoughts have been going through my mind and many of my seeds are open pollinated. I have some that I hand pollinated to grow out and see if I did my homework right. In fact I want to grow out a few generations of hand pollinated to be sure the sources I got my seed from were indeed pure. How would I know if a Japanese Variety was a cross between two other strains that will not breed true if I don`t hand pollinate and then test grow the seeds? With no knowledge of how it is done then I must find for myself what is what as far as breeding true from seeds. I think the Ukigumo breeds true so far the first hand pollinated batch has been true. Next year I`ll grow out more and become more confident with a "guarantee" on them being true seeds.

As far as these open pollinated ones I`ll do a test grow out of the batch of seeds and take pictures so the people can see results of what they are buying. I`ll put Open pollinated and provide a truly representational picture of a sample of the actual seeds I want to sell. That will take time but it will be more consumer friendly when they know exactly what they are getting. I think Japanese Morning Glories large flowered open pollinated should be ok.



This message was edited Dec 17, 2006 10:23 AM

I agree with Ron's POV, especially in light of the fact that some of the sellers overseas have hijacked my photos to sell "their" product, copyright and all! Unfortunately, I can't read Korean or Japanese, or I'd have had them taken off long ago.

I agree with Ron too.

I`m going to try putting a watermark that cannot be easily photo shopped out of the picture to protect them from being stolen. I`m going to take the time to grow out samples of each batch and then take pictures of the results to use in representing the open pollinated garden seeds. I truly believe there are no "junk" morning glory seeds. I feel sick to my stomach when it is implied home grown seeds are "junk". Not so.

I`m going to grow out the batches of hand pollinated ones too and put the seeds from Japan through the test. The hand pollinated ones will get tested as well. This actually gives a chance to tell if there is potential or anything worth saving in the flowers.

Gardeners need each other. You never know when a storm or life circumstances could wipe you out of seeds and having gardener friends can help.





This message was edited Dec 19, 2006 3:22 PM

Thank you all for this very enlightening thread. Does anyone have the wherewithal to scan text into their computer? There's a nifty website with a translation feature that will translate blocks of text of Japanese characters (as opposed to just one character at a time):

www.altavista.com

We should be able to scan a Japanese seed packet into the 'pooter, and then cut and paste that text into AltaVista's translation feature set to Japanese to English. I can't scan, but this translation feature has been a big help to me in other non-JMG pursuits.

Gardener2005, forgive me for being off-topic, but could you give me a brief description of what Ukigumo looks like? Do the flowers vary in pattern among themselves? I am so looking forward to experimenting with crosses between that one (trade from Pamsue) and Emma's I. youjiro's I grew for the first time last summer.

Okee..this is my Ukigumo. It varies from a few almost solid with light blizzard,to a wonderful very evenly striped blizzard to a pearly irridescent almost white. I has a nice picot or places where it goes in on the edges and a the leaves are yellow green variegated plus it seems to be more resistant to disease than some.

This picture represents the almost solid blizzard. They make little curlies in the centers of many of them. So perhaps it is a weak gene for doubling?

This one is the nice blizzard pattern it displays. It also blooms like crazy.

This is the pearly almost white ones on the same vine as the other kind...just ignore the trash cans in the background.

:( awww...why didn`t I see that??? The flower had me too focused on the subject and that is why this picture does it no justice because it truly was very pretty.

And this is the spritely youjiro or maisugata sp??? I chose this to experiment with because it too has expressed the gene for doubling. I have decided to maintain both of these strains pure and cross them again later if I see any more of the doubling going on. This actually came from some seeds that were Not what they were supposed to be but I liked what I was seeing and selected and grew until I could see more of the picot edge and the color was nice and dark I thought. Then I saw this amazing looking double flower in with them and used some pollen off of this same vine to use in my cross with ukigumo.



This message was edited Feb 28, 2007 10:19 PM

And the result was first of all amazing foilage followed by the typical blooming following the ukigumo blizzard pattern along with the yogiro spokes. I liked the way they seemed to be able to hold up when it was raining too. A little rain did not tear them completely apart.

Now my seed from these will probably turn out some different looks as well and hopefully maybe some of the less dominant yet desirable unique traits will show in some of the second generation seeds.

All of this has been fun and exiting to say the least. What fun to see the results!

Seeing the flowers from these seeds is like opening a gift, isn't it? Since Emma shared her seeds with me with their intricate genes, I feel like she started me on a walk down Oz's yellow brick road into the twilight zone. Well, thanks for getting back to me, gardener2005, and to all you enablers out there - you know who you are - a huge thank you to you, too.

We crossed in the cyberspace, gardener2005. Now, the pic you posted at 12:43 am is very much like two vines I grew out from Emma's Yagurama seeds - no two blossoms were alike. I harvested 2 seeds and sent 1 back to Emma. That was one of the most amazing wonders to occur in our garden last summer, and I so want that seed to do well next summer so I can cross it with some of her yojiro's.

So you get a hint from my results using the ukigumo but who knows what beauties You`ll wake up one morning to find!!!! It truly is joyful. :)

Yes, that it is

I haven`t done a whole lot of seed trading yet. I have done some seed trading and some very nice plant trades. I don`t think there is anything wow or amazing about mine that is better than anyone elses. They are special to me. I like healthy and make my choices based more on the vines vigor and do they respond to reasonable care?

You can plant some yogiros in the same garden as a blizzard patterned flower,let the bees do their jobs and presto you will turn out some different looking flowers particularly if one parent plant is scarce with pollen or has no pollen.

The only way to be sure about keeping one variety true is to tie off blooms,open them the next morning,pollinate them and tie them back up. Then wash hands and go to the next variety. Then when you plant it is important to ID each vine started from seed with a small tag attatched. Then you weed out volunteers every week or so and only allow your variety you are keeping pure by hand pollination to grow there using the tags to keep track of them and getting rid of volunteers when they are tiny to avoid disturbing the plants you are trying keep true to variety.

All the open pollinated flowers are suspect to possibly growing out different...if not now then eventually with nature allowed to take it course they will show changes. This could be great or it could be not so good depending on what your goals may be.

I hope this isn`t TMI but I`m enthusiastic and could go on and on.

The enthusiasm; generosity with knowledge, seed, and experience; inspiration and opportunity to exercise one's brain beyond what one may either be inclined to do or think one might be capable of (LOL - thank you Ron); the sharing of pure joy over this many-faceted flower; tolerance of my sometimes-off-the-wall curisioty and tangents - are a few reasons why I feel at home in this forum. So, nope - no way can you or anyone else be too enthusiastic or sharing of knowledge and experience around me.

Last summer (Summer 1 after receiving incredible MG seed from this forum and elsewhere on DG), I did pretty well keeping track of which vine and seed was which with my notebook and labels. Next summer, instead of baggies though, I'll try your method of tying off about-to-open blooms the night before they open with something like whatever fishermen use for "string" (wutizzit called?) and attach labels to pedicels marked with parents and date of tying off bloom. Out of what type of material do you make your labels? Type of pen to mark the label with? Source of these supplies? Which comes first on the label - pod or pollen parent? I guess I wouldn't want the labels to overpower the beauty of the vines and flowers, but then - on the other hand - I would want to be able to find them more easily than it takes to find my glasses in the morning. (I will let some flowers be open pollinated, because I like for some to open so we can admire them) So, any advice you can share about the nuts and bolts of keeping track of one's crosses would be immensely appreciated.

This summer, I'm hoping to try growing as many different kinds of seed as possible - I'm probably going to wind up with a horticultural junk yard a la pack rat, but I plan to postpone being sensible until Autumn 2007. Being sensible has kept me out of the garden for too many years in the past, so this year, I intend to make up for lost time. Would you like for me to dmail you my trade list? I like dependable, well-behaved plants, too, especially like what my New England grandmother grew in her garden; but I suspect there's a Frankenstein streak in me that also likes to experiment LOL.

I like to use little relatively thin plastic plant tags cut in small squares and make a hole with a hole puncher. I write the ID with a black permanent marker. I like to assign a number then pod parent x pollen parent and the date. A yarn to tie it is more secure but I have made a slit to the hole and simply snapped the tag around the base that way and most of them held well unless the weather was really horrible. I`d suggest the yarn for more security of the tags. You cut the tags loose with the scissors and keep the tag together with the seeds in a paper envelope for storage and you can then use them plus more copies to ID the resulting seedlings.

One way to do simple hand pollination with like flowers on the same for keeping a variety true(or selfing a hybrid cross) is the evening before bring out two pieces of yarn just like what you use to crochet or knit. You tie one around the base not too snug but enough to stay put. Then you tie another on the bloom just enough to hold it closed about 3/4 way up so you do not damage the reproductive parts. The next morning you untie it and open and rub the powdery pollen on the little round white pistil in the center of the flower and tie it back. I do not have the time or patience to put paper bags on 50 flowers in one morning not to mention...it looks hideous. I believe for all practical hobby purposes tying and removing the scraps of yarn later works fine. You may go around cleaning up the yarns off the dried flowers later but leave the yarn tied around the base for ID later on to collect your pods. Wash hands between varieties.

I hope everyone is having a great new year!!! :)

Thank you. I'm getting better at indexing information from this site as I cut & paste. Am up to the "P's".

Happy New Year, all - May compassion and wisdom in the inclusive sense predominate in the coming year.

In response to the original (question/issue) posted by gardnener2005 I wouldn't show too much cause for concern. Morning Glory Japan aka Komeri aka Derek is not Japanese if what I understood from prior correspondence (with him) is correct. To the newbies here...if you purchase from him, proceed with caution and choose your words wisely if you choose to contact him. He will banish you from buying from him if you question anything he sells or says. Just wanted to post a word of caution.

Sandy

That little tidbit of info explains a few things for me...I'm familiar with 'Derek'...I haven't been banned from buying, but he sure doesn't make it easy most of the time. The name change is interesting, but then I guess I shouldn't be surprised at all...

Derek must have a few women working with him, because I've gotten items from him before that had a woman's handwriting on it, or else that's the way he writes...

I have bought and grown with satisfactory results so far. So this is a seed purchaser like all the other sellers but it looks like his sources must be good. So far so good. As far as learning about the flowers I guess experience will teach. The Japanese can do this so I think Americans can figure some things out too. :)