What are the more shade tolerant viburnums?

Well, considering the expertise on this subject, I thought I would ask this question to try to get some specific answers drawing from people's personal experience, and not so much what the literature says. So I will phrase my question this way:

What general groups of viburnums will grow in bright (high deciduous all day) shade or in morning sun only, and still produce reasonable flower/fruit/fall color displays?

I have a fair amount of full sun on my property, but believe it or not it is filling up with plants fast. So I am trying to be selective in what gets put in full sun, mainly those plants that need it or want it for best growth and garden performance.

I know some of those that will grow in quite dense shade -- V. acerifolium, for example, which is already abundant on my property. And I know from past experience that the plicatums seem to flower and fruit quite well in a fair amount of shade. Some of the larger semievergreen types, like Willowwood and Allegheny, seem to do OK too.

After those, I am not really sure. The Fairweather catalog always seemed to say that the Linden viburnums, especially Michael Dodge, performed well in dense shade. But that was not my experience -- those plants seem to do much better in sun for me. Flowering seemed limited in shade, though perhaps an issue of maturity.

So any words from the wise to the un-wise?

Thanks, David

Hi David,

I can report the Viburnum nudum does fine in the shade. V. plicatum tomentosum does fine in shade too, but grows much differently. Predictably lanky and lean, but quite likeable still.

Scott

For me, Viburnum acerifolium also does fine in shade although it appears to prefer dappled shade. V, lentago definitely does well in shade for me as does V. dentatum. V. prunifolium would be another one that likes dappled shade here. Other Viburnum I have growing here have been planted in the last year or so and that's not quite enough time to comment other than that they're still alive. I do have about 5 Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum 'Shasta' that were planted three years ago that took off this year and they're in shade but they haven't fruited yet or if they did they were picked clean and I missed it. They were bare root when I first purchased them. I ordered V. rafinesquianum and V. rufidulum for delivery in spring of '07 and it had been my intent to plant three of each in shade and three of each in dappled shade as both are said to be able to adapt to shade or be able to tolerate shade. We'll see.

Viburnum x juddii does fine in the shade. This picture is from 11-18 and you can see that the oak is so low branched that the Judd can almost not physically grow up. I think fall color is better in shade, especially if the tree holds it's leaves late and protects the Viburnum foliage from frosts. Koreanspice does ok in heavy shade also. V. sargentii is a bit lanky but if you like wispy plants that throw out flowers in suprising places, it would be fine. Aww, heck; most viburnums are going to look pretty good in high shade. Probably won't be quite as nice as in sun but should be fine. Now VV can come set me in my place!

Regards,
Ernie

V. alnifolium--shade and moist--you should have that there
V. furcatum--the Japanese version of V. alnifolium--mine has blazing red fall color in full shade
V. dentatum/molle/deamii/rafinesquianum/recognitum--all growing in shade here, and plucked from native shady haunts in many cases
V. prunifolium--large unserstory plant
V. rufidulum--same as prunifolium......note that both of the above are suckering machines--plant and stand back
V. nudum--I have some in wet shade, and they love it
V. farreri nanum
As you said, V. acerifolium, V. plicatum
V. sargentii has fared better for me in the shade, with fine foliage vs. the tattered crap when it was in sun.

Well now we're cooking! Thanks to all for their suggestions from their own experience -- inevitably more valuble than what the books say. The wheels are already clicking about where to put what. I have a spot just like yours above Ernie that would be great for one of the fragrant types, along the entry path to the garden. Thanks Kevin for your list too. I do actually already have V. alnifolium starting to prosper in shade. I was going to look for several more, but now I think I will hold the spots for some of the others on the list above. V. furcatum?? Sounds wonderful. Where did you get yours?

I had the same 'quest' a few years ago, and after much research, settled on rhytidophyllum, cited in a number of sources as a good shade performer. Well it has NOT been. Moved one already and will probably do so with the other two as well.

Victor

Do any of you have V. trilobum? Specifically 'Compactum'. I would like to see pics if you have them too please.

I'm planning a major change for my backyard in spring. I'm going to tear out the narrow borders along the house and fence and plant wide shrub borders, with perennial understories. They'll curve around from one gate to another and incorporate the lower deck . There will be a bench for contemplation and other surprises (to me too! LOL).

I was planning to use V. dentatum 'Blue Muffin' in the corner where my hosta garden is now located, with the bench in front of it. Is 5' x 5' a true estimate of it's H x W? It's shady there, but a little dry and gets morning sun.

As a joke I was going to go outside and take photos of my little teeny tiny 8" V. trilobum 'Compactum' for you but decided I liked being warm and snowed in and wasn't in the mood to photograph snowdrifts of lumps. Say PG, did you get hammered too? My kid went out and measured and we've got areas where it's 11" and many areas where it's 15" deep. Really beautiful outside right now.

Why don't you want to try the 'Blue Muffin' any more? Are you concerned it might outgrow the site? I know you're planning on moving soon so why don't you go with what ever you can pick up that's the most affordable. I sure hope the people who inherit your goodies appreciate them.

I'm not planning on moving soon, I only want to LOL. We're staying put, DH thinks the planned railroad stop will be good for property values. So, I intend to plant both, the 'Blue Muffin' in the corner behind the bench and the smaller (?) 'Compactum' in a mixed border. I'm going to use lots of winterberries and spireas, potentillas and grasses, nothing much too fancy. 'Course, wishing is free! And dogwoods and a witchhazel, some junipers and a shrub rose LOL. I need to get a job at a nursery next spring! We didn't get much snow. I'm in the south suburban/NW Indiana area, so we were least affected. DH has been out since early am shoveling, his new job since being laid off for the winter. I don't blame you for not going out, I want summer and heat and bugs! LOL

Hmmm, I think we should all get jobs at nurseries next spring.

I went out to take a photo of the snow plow that got stuck in our cul de sac so on the way back into the house, I took a photo of the area where I am pretty sure I planted three 'Compactum'. I know one is definitely down in that 18" tube I circled in blue and the other two I think are in the areas I circled with the ? marks. I figured I better circle the 'Compactum' for you lest you miss them in all their glory. The other tube poking out of the snow I think is a Vaccinium angustifolium and there should be two more of those somewhere in the general area.

You're not that far away from me. How much snow did you get? I think we're definitely in the 12"-14" range. I know we get lake effect snow but I thought this whole area got nailed.

You got nailed! We only got 3 inches or so. Going out now for some necessities. Just when you thought you had everything you could need. Grrr.

Sheesh, only 3"? How did that happen? You know who else is out there who probably got hammered- Kevin_5. He would have been right in the path of some of the most snow. Lots of people with power outages around here and I bet his area had problems too.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you've got lots of provisions for keeping warm and dry. Heading out now. BBL.

PGZ5:

Of all the Viburnum dentatum you could pick to grace your property, I would suggest BM last. It is not going to be a small plant (you can find five footers in 5G pots), and it doesn't particularly do anything else above average as an arrowwood.

For highest quality fruiting you'll need two different clones with overlapping bloom times anyway, so consider:

•Little Joe™ arrowwood (brought to you by Beaver Creek Nursery) which acts compactly.
•Red Feather™ arrowwood (brought to you by Johnson's Nursery, Milwaukee) which has bright red new growth and fine red fall color
•any of the other Beaver Creek selections, including Indian Summer™, Crimson Tide™, and Red Regal™.

Kevin has grown some other arrowwoods longer than me; Raspberry Tart™ is supposed to be compact (selected by Lake County Nursery, OH), as is Papoose™ from the same source.

Ditto to consider on the cranberrybush viburnum. All your other choices sound grand.

Nose no in central KY, just lots of gusts.

Hey PG, We're fine. We've got a generator to run the refrigerators and freezers here in the summer when power goes out and I'm sure it could be hooked up if we needed it but we're rarely out of power for very long in the winter. We've got one neighbor who has a huge tractor who comes and plows us out worse case scenario. Snow has phenomenal insulating properties so better to have it than not. A winter drought can be tougher on plants than a summer drought.

I've seen a 'Raspberry Tart', nice deep red foliage on that.

Here's a picture of Little Joe™, planted bare root this spring.

Here's some Red Feather™, also from bare root plants this spring.

I agree about Blue Muffin. I am disappointed with it. Got it almost exclusively for the fruits but they disappear instantly. Birds love them. Not really into throwing nets over them. And the flowers stink to high heaven. Kept looking for a rotting animal last year before I realized it was the BM blooms. It was the first year they bloomed in a big way. I might even pull them out and replace them with something else. I am not blessed with acres and acres so every resident has to pull his / her weight. There are many other choices that offer multi-season interest, in the viburnum and non-v world.

Victor

Glad I mentioned it, but I do want a bigger sized shrub, 5' H x 5' W is about right. Love that yellow color on Little Joe! Joe is my husband's name so that may be a keeper. Are you saying that I need two different kinds for fruit? What's wrong with V. trilobum 'Compactum'? Don't their bloom times overlap?

Send PGZ5 to the "time out" room. Call me out, but I don't think you'll achieve what you want with only one arrowwood and one cranberrybush viburnum.

You'll need a couple clones of Viburnum dentatum to get the fruit you want on arrowwood; ditto with the Viburnum trilobum. Thus: Viburnum dentatum with Viburnum dentatum, and Viburnum trilobum with Viburnum trilobum.

You'll do best with intraspecific opportunities; however, similarity among the species will get you some cross-species pollination. Here's a short list; fuller treatment deserves a separate thread or a site search for past posts.

Section Opulus of the genus Viburnum contains:
•Viburnum edule
•Viburnum opulus
•Viburnum sargentii
•Viburnum trilobum
Plant partners with overlapping bloom times among these choices.

Section Odontotinus of the genus Viburnum includes:
•Viburnum acerifolium
•Viburnum bracteatum
•Viburnum dentatum
•Viburnum indianense
•Viburnum molle
•Viburnum rafinesquianum
•Viburnum recognitum
Plant partners with overlapping bloom times among these choices.

Clear as mud!

You are right Equil--at least a foot of snow and three foot drifts in places here. It's beautiful. The 5 degrees this morning was not quite as beautiful, but it's all part of the package.

David--V. furcatum was from Heronswood. Not sure if they will still be selling it or not.

Victor--agreed--leatherleafs in shade=leggy gawky unattractive

PGZ--VV is right on. Skip the Blue Muffin--it's destined for greatness(in size). Little Joe stays small, but gets wide, and throws out some red fall color every so often. Raspberry Tart has been a nice plant for me too, and is staying in bounds size-wise. Perhaps you could use V. carlesii 'Compactum' in that spot? It's got killer blooms and fragrance, nice foliage, and great fall color. You don't have to worry about cross pollination as the fruit is not such a big deal. As an alternative to the V. trilobum compactum, try V. farreri 'Nana'--it flowers oftentimes when snow is still on the ground, but it's best selling point is great colored foliage throughout the growing season. It stays small as well. V. plicatum 'Newport' or 'Igloo' (and I think 'Triumph" as well) would be excellent flowering compact plants that would thrive in that spot you describe. All of the above have points of interest other than fruit so you don't have to worry about multiple plantings for cross-pollination. I am testing out some dwarf V. rufidulum--I hope they stay small as that would be an awesome addition to the compact Viburnum list.

"Time out" room? for?? Thanks for the suggestions VV and Kevin. I was looking for bushes with fruits for the birds, as well as fragrant flowers. I had read that V. trilobum 'Compactum' was smaller than the species, but I wasn't expecting a small shrub. The hollyberries are heavy fruiters, so maybe something like a snowberry would offer a nice contrast.

You get the "time out" room for either wanting just two viburnums or most likely thinking the trilobum will pollinate the dentatum. I'll see if I have pics of my 2 trilobum compactum on Monday.

Bill

Oh right Bill, sorry. How big are your trilobum 'Compactum' and how old are they? I guess the dentatum I saw may not be Blue Muffin, it could be the straight species as it's got lots of berries and great fall color. Maybe I should just propagate that one, any advice on how to do that?

PG, I can tell you because VV told me! This was in a Dmail, but I think it's OK to copy and paste because then he doesn't need to type it again:

" For hardwood dormant cuttings, bigger and longer are better. Success often accompanies stems that are 24-36" long, and an inch or more thick. You may not have that size wood available, and I understand that. Take a few pieces of whatever size that you can reasonably part with. If there were smaller plants/seedlings that could just be lifted entirely, then you could just wash the soil from them and send the whole thing...

... Number of leaf nodes isn't an issue; as long as there is one pair that sticks out above ground, you're good to go. One note: when cuttings stems, the "down" end (lowest on the plant originally) should be left with an angled cut so that it is easy to drive into the soil. The "up" end should be cut flat so that it can be struck with a hammer or some other object to help drive it into the ground easier. The buds will then always be pointed in the right (original) direction that they were growing before being rudely sent out of town."

I am still confused. Here is a link I found calling V. trilobum a "related species" to V. dentatum. But they do not cross pollinate for purpose of fruit set?

Where can I find more information on this subject so I can quit pestering everyone?

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/trees/handbook/th-3-61.pdf

Is this how to "stick" cuttings? I haven't propagated anything yet, so find this very informative. Obviously, since it's on campus, I can't do layering. LOL thanks grnjean, sorry to ask so many questions.

PG

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/568744/

VV cites threads within this thread that may help you
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/663136/

VV, do have any experience with V.rufidulum (Rusty Blackhaw)? I just ordered two of them and I am trying to decide if I should put them in full sun or partial shade. And how close together do they need to be to pollinate each other? The only Viburnum I have is a V.plicatum var tomentosa, which doesn't seem too happy here.

THanks notgreenbeans - Two hours late-tier, I have finally concluded that Viburnums are a real headache pain. LOL I think I will try to root a cutting of the one I like on campus, with the blue berries, which I guess may or may not be Blue Muffin and while I'm at it, whatever else I can find fruiting nearby. Tune in next spring...

PGZ5:

Despite your viburnumlessness, I'm still jealous. Notgreenbeans is a classic.

Don't give up on my pseudonymous species. Despite my succinctness in 'splainin', planting and growing these wonderful shrubs is pretty straightforward. You just need the raw materials to run with.

E-Guy:

Viburnum rufidulum is an exceptional plant; glad you are going to give them a go. Sun will provide the greatest flowering and densest plants, but partial shade won't prohibit you from having pretty plants. Closer together is always better, but as long as you have bugs a-buzzin' when these are in flower, you should get the pollination you're after. Keep it at a couple hundred feet apart or nearer, and see how it goes.

Worst thing? Plant more.

VV - I haven't given up, but I am wagering that in the end, I'll have more than a couple of viburnums. And I just read that 'Jim Dandy' my "dwarf" male pollinator for the hollyberries gets 8 feet tall! Where do you "hide" an 8 foot tall shrub? Yikes! I need to haul myself off the couch and out to Lincoln Park again, it was on De Paul's campus last year that I fell in love with their copious red berries gracing practically every other entrance. So there's got to be some pollinators lurking nearby?? Can you cheat and trim them up? Maybe into standards, LOL.

How well do you know your neighbors...

That's one way to "hide" that which you don't have room for (or care to look right at).

Winterberries can be recycled like any other shrub too, if the height is the issue. Just drop out some of the tallest stems to manage at the elevation you like.

And you can never have too many viburnums...

My neighbors are nice, but. Well, on one side, they have a lawn service, and yews that are shaped like lollipops and a huge cottonwood in the backyard (shudder)...I can't explain what goes on on the other side, I give him my extra perennials and it's an improvement...LOL They're very nice people, so I can't complain, just not gardeners.

After careful review of some of my better options, I have concluded that I need an Onondaga viburnum, and possibly a V. trilobum Compactum, since they may overlap in bloom and then I would get fruit. And an oak-leaved hydrangea! LOL