Ilex pedunculosa

I am down on both knees with head bent down and arms extended honoring the genius of any and all forum members who can stand behind my evaluation of the Ilex pedunculosa - long stalk holly as being a sickly yellow leaved teen with gangly limbs forming for all too many adolescent years one butt ugly looking tree. In my neck of the woods Arnold Arboretum does indeed have a wonderful specimen but I am thinking…no I am certain… that no other sane organization or individual can come to the same conclusion...Please share your thoughts/photos. kt

All I know is that they are a pain to grow from seed, tend to do poorly in a container, and absolutely demand sharp draining acidic soil in the garden. At least, on the latter two points, those are the two excuses I have pinned to my own failure to grow this Ilex. Truthfully, I have not seen a mature, or even an adolescent plant in person, but I am all too eager to accept your evaluation since seeing for myself remains elusive. I will say, however, that this holly is undeniably photogenic, particularly when the shots are zoomed in on those beautiful berries dangling from ridiculously long stalks.

Scott

Not that this plant ever showed up on any of my wish lists but I can tell you that after reading what you two wrote I sure don't want it. I have enough butt ugly plants around my place as it is.

kt, not familiar with this Ilex so had to look it up:

Thank you all for your input and I am considering your lack of familiarity with this tree true testament to it's undesirable (butt ugly) appearance in the landscape. Who is better to evaluate the aesthetic qualities of plant for the landscape the masses or the experts? I recently found myself in a quandary that all began very innocently a few short weeks ago when someone new to landscaping submitted his wish list of shrubs for a new border. I thought the list was well thought out with the exception of Ilex pedunculosa and told him so (no I did not use the adjective butt ugly) unfortunately a buddy (our friendship was formed by mutual admiration to the sarcasm gods) found an opportunity to have some fun. Keep in mind this buddy has been to my home and viewed first hand my butt ugly Ilex pedunculosa , I could tolerate her comments re my high standards…what’s not to love…beautiful berries… yada, yada, yada, but now after I mentioned the link to back issues of Arnoldia she has with way too much glee stumbled on an article that she considers a creditable reference to the beauty of this under used tree. If that wasn’t enough thanks to rcn48’s research the debate takes a twist to include a moral dilemma do I allude to my buddy that Dirr as well as Arnold Arboretum have a skewed vision of beauty?? How do I stand up to these giants?? Kt

rcn48 - I believe I have ideal conditions for this tree, sandy acidic soil, and own neither a snow shovel or an air conditioner.

I propose when there are few attributes to a plant the tendency is to focus on the berry.

Sometimes the truth can be skewed by the angle of the lens.

Sadly this photo does not even come close to representing how truly butt ugly this tree is.

Yep--that's ugly. Mine aren't nearly so ugly as that. They grow slowly up here in the frigid north, kind of piling on layer after layer, so the smaller ones I have are rather dense. I bought three 4 footers on sale for $25 ea. this fall, and they are much more dense than what you have there. Maybe worth pruning to try and get some branches growing?

Kevin,
You may want to sit down when I tell you that during this beauty's early years it was a dense nicely shaped tree that I considered one of my top ten. What you see before you is seven to eight years later....an adolescent with a bad case of acne would be a generous comparison. Last winter as a final effort prior to shovel pruning I pruned the overall tree to attempt fullness and although I will admit a small improvement...clearly not enough. kt

I want to make myself clear. I did not want to express that Ilex pedunculosa is ugly. I do not know. I have not seen a grown plant around here. What I was saying was that since I've had no luck in my efforts to grow Ilex pedunculosa, I am (let's say) receptive to the idea that it is "butt ugly." That way, when someone asks, "Hey, have you tried growing Longstalk Holly?" I can say, "Nah, why would I want to grow that butt ugly plant?" which is somehow better than saying, "Yes, but it died. And then I tried it again, and it died again. Thinking the third time would be a charm, I yet again swung and missed, and had to take that long shameful walk back to the dugout while being booed and heckled."

All that said, I have three seedlings in containers right now, growing achingly slowly. Can't seem to keep them dry enough. It's a pain keeping the media acidic enough. But I would love for them to become real plants someday. I like the foliage a lot. The berries are really cool.

As for kicking in the door and pointing directly at Dirr and calling him a yellow-bellied lier? Or standing outside the gates of the Arnold and hollering taunts challenging Sargent's or Spongebergs tastes? I don't think I'll be too likely to do that. Do I feel compelled to follow them around and agree with everything they say like a puppet on a string?" No I don't. But I do feel compelled to have all my arguments together and some good first hand experience with a plant before I take an opposing view.

I like Kevin's point of perhaps a slower rate of growth tightens the plant up and tidies its appearance. I'm wondering if, gulp, a good annual shearing (or slightly lesser method of pruning) wouldn't cause it to fill out. I'd like to hear David's views on this, being first of all up north and secondly a man not at all afraid to approach his garden with Felcos in hand. I'm also hoping Vernonia Alley chimes in, or Malice, as if anyone has seen a good-growing Ohio River Valley specimen of IP, it is them.

Scott

Runk,

The only plant that I can honestly say that I have seen is a 15 footer out at Longwood Gardens. While not a showstopper, it was not ugly. My pride wants me to say that I have seen others but my mind cannot dredge up the memories of these ummm, these...............Have you ever tried Viburnum molle? :P They say the mind is second thing to go.

Regards,
Ernie

I don't know, I must say that mine aren't that ugly. Although they did take a while to start filling in and looking somewhat full. Not as thick and full as many other Hollies, but still not too bad. I only had to trim back the occasssional vigorous branch and they seemed to have filled out nicely, but like I said it took several years. Mine are about 14 years old now and 15' tall. Also, maybe since mine are in a good protected spot they don't ever get that sickly yellow-green color. Lastly, mine are planted in average moderately acidic clay soil and seem to be thriving. I thought I had read that this Hollie was one of the least fussy about acidic soil, prefering an almost neutral soil. Sorry to against the tide here runktrun.

My only experience with this plant was a complete bust. I have never seen it in a nursery or any garden anywhere around here, even the good ones with a huge array of woody plants. I bought a couple from Fairweather gardens and plunked them at the very back of my old way-overcrowded garden -- in shade, inadequate water, good soil but the native clay subsoil was alkaline. They never even grew I think, got somewhat chlorotic, eventually just died. But I would attribute that to me and the growing conditions and not blame the plants. As far as pruning hollies is concerned, I actually have not had especially good luck, but NONE of the hollies in my old garden thrived. They were all poorly sited and just didn't have the right conditions. I used to have lots of dieback on China Boy and China Girl, and pruning just seemed to make them worse.

I have really only seen this holly one time that I recall, somewhere at the National Arboretum, and I do remember it being very attractive.

My new garden is much more favorable to growing hollies -- much better sandy acid soil, more protection, lots of favorable niches. I bought some larger blue hollies and hybrids from Wavecrest, and they have all thrived. So I will have to give this one a real try for the first time. If I can manage to find some. Wavecrest, Kevin? Do they have them?

Hearing this discussion doesn't mainly make me lust after longstalk hollies -- it makes me want to move to Edgartown MA -- sandy soil, no AC, no snowshovel!!! I could definitely deal with gardening in that climate.....

Concession Speech

It is with great humility that I stand before you this evening to announce that based on the informative, hilarious, and brutally frank, responses in this thread I have come to the conclusion that perhaps it is I and I alone who own the ugly duckling of the Ilex pedunculosa world. Whether my butt ugly Long Stalk Holly is spared the fate of shovel pruning remains to be determined…quite frankly I don’t know if I have the landscape confidence it would take to allow this tree be a presence in my shrub border without feeling compelled to offer excuses for its existence. Alas a winter to ponder.

Kt Mother of the ugliest duckling.

Here in New England we are having an exceptional year for berries (cones as well) and below is a photo taken a few days ago at Polly Hill Arboretum of Ilex opaca ‘Barnard Luce’ (a Polly Hill introduction). I have just added this one to my must have list. While writing this I have been doing a mental tally of a long list of ilex that I would be happy to share seed/cutting.
Ilex x Mondo ‘Little Rascal’ – male
Ilex crenata ‘Lemon Gem’
Ilex crenata ‘Dwarf Pagoda’
Ilex AQ. Hastata –male
Ilex glabra – ‘Shamrock’
Ilex glabra – dwarf form – puts on about 3-4” a year not sure of ultimate height but is expected under 5’
Ilex crenata ‘Jersey Pinnacle’
Ilex x Conin ‘Robin Red’
Ilex x meserve ‘Blue Pincess’
Ilex koehneana ‘Wirt L Winn’
Ilex pernyi
Ilex ‘Nellie R Stevens’
Can’t remember more it must be from the emotional stress of concession speech.

David5311 - It is with mixed emotions that I tell you Forest farm is selling Ilex pedunculosa.

Oh boy does that photo make me jealous. There is probably only one place in Michigan where hollies can be grown remotely like those you show, in the Saugatuck area and south, along the extreme southeastern Lake Michigan shore. There the soil is acid, sandy, and the lake moderates temps so much that it is officially zone 6b, some limited areas maybe even 7.

Time to move to holly country (azaleas, rhodies, so many perennials.....). So how high is the real estate market in Edgartown (sky high I bet....). Sigh....

David,
Isn't it funny how the tree is always greener on the other side of the fence? I would give my eye teeth to be able to grow Michigan cherries. As a matter of fact I have to say I have never picked cherries from a cherry tree!! Actually even the ornamental cherry's here are pretty susceptible to disease. Dh and I have been living here for twenty seven years, raised three beautiful daughters and now are ready to move on to our next great adventure. I have done a bit of travelling over the last few years both nationally and internationally in search of that new place to call home and what I discovered is the real estate market is high all over the globe! Iam thinking that my New England garden buddies that are zone 5 (New England is zone 3-7) are pretty successful with I. glabra, I.meserve? Well if propagation is your thing I would be happy ship you off some goodies. kt

Hi kt, actually I think with the conditions at my new place I am going to do fine with I. meservae at least. The plants I bought from Wavecrest nursery in Saugatuck are thriving, including 2 big 8 footers with gorgeous pyramidal shape, one yellow and one red berried (and yes with a pollinator too).. We'll see how they do through their first winter, but they have been in the ground since late spring, and they told me that the plants should do fine even here in z 5b. My smaller blue hollies that were planted a year and a half ago have thrived. And we are expecting a very mild winter here this year according to the NOAA long range weather map so I have high hopes of them really getting established well. I have not yet grown I. glabra but it will be on the list.

Yes, the grass is always greener elsewhere -- PNW, Nantucket, the southwest, the southeast, England ..... loads of places I feel like I would rather live......

David:

I grew a Wavecrest cross(I think meservae x opaca???) over the last winter. It had about 6" of dieback all around. However, it may have been in too much sun. I moved it for this winter where it will get little if any winter sun. I have a row of I. opaca and some hybrids that are all in the same conditions. My fingers are crossed as I would LOVE a holly like those pictured above(but I'm not moving to get them--I'm happy--my grass is the greenest!)

David and Kevin,
As much as Ilex (with one butt ugly exception) seem to thrive in my world under almost any conditions I will say all of mine respond dramatically to being sprayed twice through out the winter with an anti-desiccant. The browning you have been experiencing could possibly be from damaging winter and early spring wind rather or in addition to too much sun. I will admit this treatment is not inexpensive but you can buy small quantities so you might consider using it on a test tree. I use Wilt Pruf and have often emailed them with questions that they have been quick to answer. kt

I actually have wilt-prufed most of my broadleaf evergreens, especially those not yet fully established, and I did these two hollies too. I buy wiltpruf in 5 gal concentrate form which makes it much more affordable (I am still on my first jug of concentrate after 2 years....) The hollies are planted in wind-sheltered, east facing exposures with only morning sun in summer and filtered winter sun, so I think they are about as ideally sited as one can possibly in my zone. And I am a half zone warmer than Kevin here too, so here's hoping for the best.

No, I can't honestly say I am perfectly happy where I am, or that the grass is greenest here. Mostly, I resent the winters -- too long, too dark, too few opportunities to have a real winter garden, where winter blooming shrubs really bloom in WINTER not in mid April. I think if I could have that I would be happy. But the grass might be greener here than some places -- why I could be living through a twin-cities winter, and never even dream of a holly.......

David,
My holiday gift to you is to share with you that I paid two weeks ago $53.95 for ONE gallon of Wilt Pruf concentrate (I use one and a half gallons a year)!!! I bet your own grass is looking a whole lot greener now. kt