Well just checked my first batch of scales, well they used to be scales now they are mulch :*(
Repeat after me, sterilize the soil, sterilize the soil, sterilize the soil, in scales and in seed it shalt be done...Bleaching helps too with the scales.
My second batch, that is 4 weeks old, I baked the soil and bleached the scales and they seem to be around yet. One had a tiny bulb growing. So I am hopeful.
Live and learn
This message was edited Nov 20, 2006 9:13 PM
Lessons learned...
Yes, live and learn intercessor. You really don't need soil for the scales as the bulblets live off the mother scale. And a brief soak in dilute bleach of the scales is a good idea. I use my soilless seed starting mix (usually finely ground peat and perlite) for scales and am next going to try plain vermiculite; that is what I saw the Lily Garden using. That way you avoid the soil pathogens altogether. Congrats on your bulblet!
I say soil, but am just using a catch all phrase for what I used. It is a potting soil with peat, perlite and something else. Unfortunately it was contaminated with fungus gnats and who knows what else. Per little gnats waking up in a bag with no place to fly :*).
Sounds like your medium was way too moist. Remember, since the bulblets live of the mother scale as Pard says, all they need is to not dry out. That will go a long way in thwarting disease, rotting and especially fungus gnats. Obviously, pasteurizing the soil is best, but I use uncooked barely moist peat, and (almost) never have a problem.
What I do is toss the scale in a snack baggie with a handful of potting soil. I then spritz two or three times with water, zip up the bag and give it a few gentle shakes for the soil to absorb the moisture. I then toss it in a cardboard box with a few cookbooks on top. The soil is hardly even damp.
I've had phenomenal success seeing as this is the first year I've tried doing this. I bet I have somewhere between 40 and 50 new bulblets and, like I said, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them all. Maybe trade them off next spring for other types of plants/seed or just give them away.
Unfortunately, many are mystery bulblets. The very first ones I did came from a half eaten bulb I found in the garden this spring. I'm hoping it is Oriana as that one disappeared this year. And then there was the mishap with my drill auger this fall. That generated several scales that are a mixture of Alcab and Champagne. But which are which, haven't a clue.
About pasteurizing the soil, how is this done; oven, microwave, temp, for how long? I've been using just regular Miracle Grow and am wondering if heat will affect whatever nutrients, in the form of fertilizer, are in the soil. I'm beginning to think the scales really like the MG mix.
I have never cooked anything....this year I have some in peat/perlite (about 50:50) and some in perlite/vermiculite (about 50:50)
i mix it up in a plastic grocery bag and spray some water in ......just barely enough to tell that there is some moisture beyond sahara dry....
so far they seem happy - just checked them a day or two ago. I have done some in straight vermiculite and that seemed to work well too. I probably lose a few scales as I am not as ruthless about them being perfect to start out with, but never more than a handful.
I was amazed to find that many of them are starting to put out little roots already, others are just nubbins and others haven't really done much of anything yet. I don't know if either of the mixes is better yet....haven't made up my mind.
In a few weeks, they will go into the fridge.
It must be my potting "soil". It seems to be full of little crawly things when it gets moisture. The first batch more than likely got to wet since it was my first try. I bake my "soil" at 190 to 200 for an hour. That has seemed to work for my second batch so far.
It sounds like straight peat doesn't have to many contaminates?
I found that even havign a bag of soil open on the patio overnight caused it to become contaminated with several kinds of insects. Fortunately I was able to get it under control quickly, and I didn't use that soil for anything except potting up rooted cuttings that were going outside soon. But still it was enlightening.
Potting soil that you buy should already be pasteurized. (What people call sterilized, but really only heated enough to kill the bad diseases and leave some or all of the good living stuff alone.) Contamination once the bag is open is inevitable. But the idea is that bad diseases will have a more difficult time getting a foothold in the soil when they have to compete with other organisms already there and established.
Beaker, two cook books for weight on your scales? I had know idea! Would anyone else share your estimated poundage for this purpose? Goodness, I really don't know . . . but if it works . . . Anyone ever see a written recommendation?
Com'on everyone: weigh in!
Didn't inanda bring up the technique of putting weight on the scales? I think she said something about magazines or books or something. It helps the soil keep contact with the scales. So what the heck, I say to myself. Sooooo........ I have a couple of Encyclopedia Britannica "Annals of America" on top of my scales. I don't know what they weigh, a few pounds at least. I thought that was a patriotic choice and they fit nicely in the box. I'm recycling scales from the Lily Garden. It will be an interesting experiment to see if I get more bulblets from them...
Yup, got the idea from Inanda. She said she noticed that the scales in the bottom of her scale box seemed to set bulblets sooner than the ones on top. I reasoned that the weight caused better contact with the soil. The majority of my scales have put out multiple bulblets and I can say with some certainty that the martagon scale I started had two visable bulblets in less than 3 weeks. Next year I should experiment with a different growing medium to see if the Miracle Grow is having a positive effect or not. I think it might be, but seeing as this is my first year doing anything with scales, I don't know if what I'm experiencing is normal or not.
I don't think you need to go too heavy. Just enough pressure to cause good soil contact. When I started this spring, I was just tossing the baggies under a small pile of plant catalogs. I added the cookbooks when I decided I should get more organized and moved them to a cardboard box that I could close up.
My first successful experience with scaling was using the soilless seed starting mix also. I used a stack of folded clothes as my weight. :)
Mine are in boxes, and are pretty tight....for the one not completely full, I used crumpled newspaper to take up the slack
Right. I remember inanda's thread too. If I recall correctly, Inanda's scales lower in the box didn't have near that amount pressing down on them, only the weight of the scales' baggies above. Magazines were mentioned later, but not how many. What is a "small pile of catalogs" ? Two cookbooks, I'm guessing the weight of a 4 lb small sack of sugar(or more) - seems like a lot. But maybe not. I was only hoping for some clarification of what exactly everyone is doing. (Thanks everyone!) No criticism here. Just observations.
This message was edited Nov 22, 2006 10:34 PM
I think 4 lbs would be overkill. The catalog pile grew to about 3 inches before I remembered they were under there. The box I'm using is about 18 inches long, so I put in 2 cookbooks to cover the length, each about an inch thick. I'm guessing a pound or less. Nothing too scientific going on here.
I've been avidly reading plant propagation books for the past several weeks. Something I picked up on reading about cuttings is the importance of firmly tamping the growing medium to ensure good soil contact. One of the blurbs said to use a flat bottomed glass or pot to firmly tamp the soil down. Scales probably aren't all that different from cuttings. Since this discussion started, I've been thinking about the leaf cuttings I'm going to try next season and wondering if applied pressure might improve the process. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of experimenting.
I haven't tried growing from scales yet, I am attempting it now for the first time. Well, a few years ago I think I put a couple in a bag in a dark cupboard in some peat which I had read was how to do it, but I'm not counting that, it didn't work either but I wasn't doing it seriously then.
I feel sure at some time I have heard/read about the good contact theory, and I think it not only involves a good tamp down but also some gritty soil in the mixture. This may have the effect of an abrasive, causing small wounds where the stems on a cutting will root better because of the hormones released. That is perhaps best for tender cuttings, on harder woody cuttings it is normal to scrape a thin outer layer off the bottom half inch or so to bare the cambrium layer. This should encourage it to root. Some reasons give in this article on air layering
http://www.gardens.co.nz/Articles.cfm?NLID=124
I think the gritty presence in growing from scales might have a similar effect of making it reproduce through the abrasive contact as well as some pressure and darkness, which is what they would get if in the ground. Lilies will often be growing amongst leaf litter too, so I will be putting mine in a mix of gritty soil and leaf litter, in a closed box with something on top. They are still in their original as bought fine peat, which may do the job, but I need to change that, another one of those jobs....which I can do if I put my mind to it!
Interesting thoughts on the gritty additions, Wallaby. I have rooted woody plant cuttings for 25 years, although with pretty basic and simple methods. I do still wound my cuttings now and then, depending on what it is. But in my experience, the process seems only helpful in certain instances, like if the bark is so thick it becomes somewhat impervious to added hormones. But even those "micro wounds" on scales would also be entry points for pathogens (a problem rarely encountered with woody cuttings). I would think again before introducing an unpasteurized medium of gitty soil and leaf litter that would, or should, be teaming with micro organisms.
I agree with Rick. I think you would have success without the grit. Of course, a lot of my scales became available as a result of damage to the bulb, such as from my auger incident. I haven't noticed any problems with disease, so I think lily scales are fairly forgiving.
This is a great thread to learn from you guys.
I bought Bravura from the Lily Garden and took two scales (I couldn't help just two, part of me was still scared to do anything to the bulb). I looked at it the other days and there, on one of them was a bulblet. I was shocked. I used soiless mix and about a 3 lb. book on top and on bottom. Is this book method for scales and seeds or just scales?
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!
Just scales, magnolia. For seeds just tamp down the mix.
That's what I thought, but then I thought I better re-check. Hey, Pard, it worked.....so far...
to be continued....
Dont use soil, dont use soil, dont use potting soil or any other kind of soil. Repeat after me, dont use soil.
Use peat moss, vermiculite, any kind of SOILLESS medium. For instance, I've some bulblets growing happily in Buggycrazys wood packing heavy sawdust type medium. Am truly amazed about this because think it is cedar chip material. I wouldn't reccommend this but it was an experiment as this was all I had at the time.
Just a little bit of weight. Poor rootlets. They don't want to fight their way through heavily packed material.
inanda - SO Happy to be back in computerland after more than a month without.
Glad to have you back!
What exactly is "soil"anyway?
Interesting question.
I would think soil is a mixture of organic and mineral elements but I would be interested to know what the experts think.
I think soil is sand, silt, and clay (basically just 3 different size rock particles) and organic matter, our naturally occuring growing medium.
Inanda, are you saying you should only use a soiless mix for scales? I've been using MG potting mix and have had very good luck. In fact, I've got way too many. Do you think they rot more easily in a potting mix? I've been keeping mine very dry.
BTW, would you please look for the product info on Damp Off?
I've had my nose glued to my work computer for the past two months and not enough energy left for DG at night.
Not enough fun in my life! I need to scale a few lilies and watch something grow instead of watch my yard die for the winter.
This message was edited Dec 12, 2006 2:12 PM
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Miracle-Gro potting mix is soiless. It will say on the bag if it is. Still, you need to be mindful of water content, especially with smaller particles, like MG mix or peat. Remember, barely moist.
Well then, maybe that's why it is working so good.
Ingredients on my bag of MG potting mix: 50-60% forest products compost, Canadian sphagnum peat moss, perlite, a wetting agent, and fertilizer (0.21% N and some P and K). It is quite "twiggy". I started using it this year for potting lilies that I have to hold over. I haven't formed an opinion yet, I'll see how things are growing come spring. I think MG makes a soiless seed starting mix but don't know if my memory is right. I've tried so many of them!
It seems to me that composted material would be considered "soil".
From wikipedia: "Soil consists of mineral and organic matter, including living organisms." & "Soil formation, or pedogenesis, is the combined effect of physical, chemical, biological, and anthropogenic processes on soil parent material..."
Another interesting statement, "While the general concept of soil is well established, the definition of soil varies, according to the perspective of the discipline or occupation using soil as a resource."
I have come to the conclusion that the term "soil less", in reference to growing seedlings, would mean the absence of any decaying plant matter, i.e. compost. Since composted material is usually teaming with all sorts of creatures, bacteria, mold, e.t.c. As with all things, your mileage may very :*)
On a different note, Concerning the wetness of the seedling planting material. I keep track of the weight of my containers. I weigh them when at the appropriate wetness, and then I can keep track of how much water evaporates by weighing periodically. So 1 oz. of water = 1 oz. of weight. Works on a small scale anyway. So if someone is having trouble with not knowing when to water, this method may work.
Except soiless mixes are typically peat based. But then, peat behaves differently than other organic materials. I think those mixes are free of sand/silt/clay to keep the dry weight down. I have noticed cheap potting soil has sand, I assume as a weighty filler since they're often sold by weight rather than volume.