lmro karen! hahaha
Becky,I must agree it is very disturbing cat behavior. We must get to the bottom of this mystery, opening this thread was no accident. It must be a captivity thing in the case of Monarchs. We will have to see what our fellow leps say about it.
Interesting butterfly behavior
Well Becky, that is definitely weird. I'm not sure what to believe about it tho. Like you, I know they will do that and try to separate them, but I don't always do it and I've only had it happen once with a Queen. I've never heard of this behavior with Swallowtails.
What I have always thought is that, again, they just aren't real smart. They don't have much room in there for any sort of a brain, you know? lol I've read that the cats see in black and white so sometimes I think they just can't tell what they are looking at. You've seen them crawl all over each other and bob up and down when they get too close to another large cat.
Where did you find your little Jeffrey Dahmer? Was he on a pod or a leaf?
I assume they taste somehow with their feet because they seem to know when you've put them on a fresh plant or the wrong plant. I've always thought that maybe the cats themselves actually taste like the milkweed to another cat. When Cat had that one cat that ate a chrysalis that has to show that even the chrysalis tastes like milkweed. Otherwise, why in the world would a cat eat something like that?
Not that they can't have some defense mechanisms, but I'm going to try to believe the best about them. After all, they are just worms. LOL
There are probably many 'schools' of thought and opinion on how smart cats/bf's are, however my take is the intelligence of any animal is subjective to the observer. Imho, caterpillars have a highly sophisticated form of intelligence. ie..> BST know when to overwinter...Monarchs know when to migrate, which direction, and how far. However basic that may seem, to me it is more than a lot of humans understand, let alone compare.
I don't call that "intelligence" but instinct. Those things are programmed in them and they do it when their instincts tell them to do it. I don't think that it's instinct to take a bite out of your neighbor because they taste like food. I think that just ain't real smart. LOL
Deb and Paige - In all honesty, I think that it is survival of the fittest! If a cat eliminates other cats, then more food (leaves) for it! I think that is exactly what happened. He did not even eat any of the leaves until about an hour or so after he killed the smaller cats. Something else occured to me .... if it was a male and the smaller cats were also male, maybe he was eliminating his competition? Or even a female might do that! I don't know. I kind of got worried that he might chew and kill the 5 chrysalis hanging in his cage. But he hasn't shown any interest in them. And he's been humble and calm ever since the massacre! Who knows? We live in a violent world and he's a product of his environment and Monarch butterfly genes! :-(
I personally would blame it on all the violence on TV and video games, you really should restrict his privileges ;+}
This was another article in our local newspaper today about the possible invasion of the Killer Bees:
The Africanized bees have been spreading since the 1950s from Brazil, where beekeepers had crossbred pure African bees with the more familiar European honeybees to boost pollination and honey production.
The hybrids are 10 times as aggressive as the honeybees, chasing people in larger masses for longer distances, with enough bees stinging at once to equal the venom of a rattlesnake bite, Kelly-Begazo said.
Since the hybrid bees and honeybees look alike, she said, there isn't much people can do except stay away from honeycombs in the wild.
Lovely, huh? NOT!
MQN - LOL! So true. His cage is near enough to the video games that my son and husband play, maybe that is what happened. Blame it on the game creators! LOL!
LOL MQN!! I think you could be right! Time out really won't bother it since it apparently wanted to be alone. Maybe feeding him older leaves would send a message to him.
Becky, don't worry. It would just be too freaky if you had killer cats and killer bees! ;) I'll ask some other butterfly experts their opinions.
Oh yeah, I just remember that my son plays his music VERY loud when no one is home. He likes rock, so maybe it was the music! Maybe the cat had a headache from all the loud music and took it out on the two innocent bystanding cats. He was definitely aggitated when all this happened. He climbed all over the cage when I was observing him after the attack. I've never seen one cover ground as he did that day. Maybe the leaves he was eating earlier were laced with something. It was such an odd occurence! I'll be much more careful from now on not to mix different size cats.
Becky, that may be a possibility....my cats are in the garage and they don't like when the doors go up. You know how loud and irritating that sound is? Sometimes they will bow their bodies out...away from the stem, when the door is moving. Maybe there is something to the noise level and their behavior.
Mostly I think it is survival instinct....but noise could influence them.
Loud noises do bother them. I discovered this a few years ago when I had my first Monarch cats. If I was talking loud when I walked up to them they would start bobbing, like they were dancing. Of course then I had to do it on purpose. lol
I gotta say, I'm a big fan of loud and louder rock music and it's always getting blamed for something. I can't let it get blamed for turning cats into cannibals! LOL...too funny. Hey! Maybe caterpillars really DO like it, and they are just "headbanging" to the loud noise!
I have a Monarch in a small clear plastic container sitting right here next to my computer monitor. (He was in my classroom and I brought him home today because his chrysalis was dark. I knew he was getting ready to emerge.) We are out of school until next Monday. He just emerged about 30 minutes ago. I have 4 more in the cage that also emerged today, all of them are to be released tomorrow. It is supposed to get down to 36-38 degrees tonight. Decided it was better to release them in the late morning vs. late this afternoon. Hopefully they will all survive. My husband thinks we may be in for an unusually cold winter this year. (I hope he's wrong.)
Interesting observation last night:
I was outside late last night collecting some milkweed leaves for the tiny cats that I have in a clear plastic container and found more little cats literally falling off the leaves because they got so cold that they couldn't hold on. I must have picked up 5-6 cats off the ground. When I put them in the cage and they warmed up they were all over the cage trying to figure out their new home! lol Anyone else ever noticed this happening? I kid you not, they FELL off the plants. I thought they were all dead or dying. But they were just so cold that their little bodies shut down and they became too weak to hold onto the leaves.
I lost some last year that I didn't bring in. I didn't know the temperature was dropping that night. I always bring them in at night now no matter what, because of what happened last year.
Poor babies!! that is so sad! They are lucky that you have your trusty flashlight! :) I usually bring in any cats that I see outside so I've never seen this. (I'll refrain from experimenting lol)
I haven't noticed that either, but when I go out in the morning...when it's in the high 30's, I don't see any cats. But, when I go out later, when it's warmer, I have found some on the plants. I don't know where they go and I didn't see them on the ground anywhere. So far I have 11 more, luckily Lowe's brought in some more milkweed. I am worried because by the time they eclose it will be December.
fly_girl - I know. That thought has been crossing my mind too. If this unusually cold evening temperatures keep up, it will be way too cold for them to survive as butterflies. Maybe this is just a fluke week of weird cold temps? Let's hope so! I never run the heater this early in the season! Disturbing, especially since I just planted lots of young plants this past summer and a few in the early Fall. :-/
As long as it warms up over 60 during the day, I'll release them and hope they will fly pronto to Mexico or at least get further south. If it's too cold they'll just have to stay in the pavilion. I have one in there, that has a deformed wing, going on 3 weeks.
Good thing you got them in Becky! Nice save there! The cold just might get them, though refrigerator temp (40s) will only make them sleepy/still until they warm up. hey would still be able to hold on to their branch. So if they are falling off it is too cold. I haven't experimented it but in the case of the mealworms I get for my birdies, they have to be kept in the refrigerator. They will survive up to 2 months without food, and there's no scat either because of that. When I dish them into the cup I use for the birds, they come very much alive!
Anything in the 30-39* might be too much for them though for sure. You done good!
LOL paige "headbanging rocker cats".. I'm off my chair here lmro..Let's call Pixar and make a deal with them for the movie! ooOO Hey, ya know the more we chat about their weird behavior, we might just have some interresting senerios here, seriously :-O. That would make such an excellent movie, one that teaches kids (and adults), a lot about butteflies, mingled with a lot of humor like 'rocker cats'. yeah!
This message was edited Nov 21, 2006 8:45 PM
Yeah, but we might have to omit the moonshine guzzling parts....lol
Hey they do like the rotten nanners and stout beer, lol.. We couldn't leave that out, could we? Your right fly, moonshine would be over the top.
hehe
That would make a very cute and educational movie! Funny and informative! I like it! Who do we get to produce and direct it? And how do we get the cats and butterflies to cooperate? lol
LOL Becky Pixar for sure.. they have a whole team of people. Which one of us should write the letter making the suggestion?
Can we email Pixar and direct them to this forum and thread? lol
Here's another funny incident that happened earlier this evening:
I noticed the skin drop off one of the cat changing to chrysalis. Well, the darn thing fell down as it was morphing. Luckily, it didn't fall far and it fell onto a soft tissue lining the cage.
When it fell, it was still twisting and wiggling around on the floor of the cage. Of course, I quickly open the cage to better see what was going on! Realized what happened, ran to the bathroom to get dental floss, and came back. The morphing chrysalis is just wiggling and thrashing back and forth like crazy. I've got this little knot loop trying to wrap it around the cremaster (silken thread) that somehow broke away from the top of the cage. Everytime I get the loop almost on it, the darn thing wiggles again in another direction. I'm getting frustrated and then realize that there is a tiny cat underneath this big ole' chrysalis. He's trying to get out from underneath, but the weight of the chrysalis it too heavy for him to crawl away.
So now I'm thinking I'm gonna lose 2 of them if I don't do something. So I reached in and picked up the forming chrysalis. (I was thinking it would turn to goo when I picked it up.) But low and behold, I was able to pick up the chrysalis off the little tiny cat and laid in on a paper towel outside the cage. I could almost see the sigh of relief from the little cat as he high-tailed it away from that area! lol The chrysalis was very soft, almost rubbery. I was trying so hard not to squeeze when I picked it up. I could just picture the green blood oozing out if I squeezed just a little too hard picking it up.....
The chrysalis seemed to stop squirming, so I was able to get the floss loop around the cremaster. Hung that baby back up from the top of the cage. (The cage lid had slotted holes.) After which, the cat continued it's transformation until it finally became a normal formed chrysalis. Whew!!!
Am I the only one here with such WEIRD stories?????? Ack!
Maybe I'm just over-the-top raising all these cats into butterflies! =:-o
This message was edited Nov 22, 2006 12:16 AM
It's time for everyone to pull out (or rent if you don't have a 7yr old) "A Bug's Life"! That movie is so hilarous when you really know a few things about the bugs and gardening.
No Becky, you aren't alone. I'm sure that many things happen outside but we don't see them. I have had all kinds of strange things happen like that but it's just become sort of normal around here now. When I've got cats in the house it never fails that at some point I'm frantically running around for some "odd" reason. A pupating problem, a lost cat, an eclosed butterfly loose in the house.
..."I'm a beeeauuuutiful butterfly!" :) (Heimlich the caterpillar)
Oh that's good heimlich! How funny paige, lol..I can't tell you how many times that movie was played here. My mind is just whirling with ideas for this animated adventure. It should be centered around Monarchs, their migration and all that. Starting out in sunny Mexico with voices by Rosie Perez and Cheech Marin, etc.. Moving up through Texas, and all states to Canada... even flashing over to Florida and Cali with the year-rounders there. When they get to Canada the offspring have an entirely different accent.. all the incidents along the way in vairous peoples gardens....
I was thinking to write the 'book' first, and then pitch it to our friends at Pixar. DH works for the company that designed the pixar technology (Sun) ... Who better to consult than we who have the magnifying glass on cat behavior? Any gain would be rightfully shared with all contributors of what's used..fair and square. Ultimatly it would be great to have major centers in every state born out of all this. That's what I would like to see, anyhow.
Gee whiz ((Becky)) your quite the helper there~ Ya think the lil fella was looking for a warm place to curl up and stay warm? Turns out he was trespassing, Yikes, that could have been fatal for both of them! So the both of them probably think your're an angel girl!
Paige - I love "Bug's Life". It ocassionally gets shown to our class!
Deb - I think you are on to something with the movie character's voices! LOL! Wouldn't it make a great movie?!!! There are so many educators now raising and releasing butterflies with their classroom students. It'd be a BIG hit I am sure! I'd go see it and I'd even buy the dvd! You gotta write a book and push it to pixar! It would be the cutest movie if they included all the neat educational stuff we know about cats and butterflies!
Oh, oh! Couldn't ya just see the different cats meeting each other. Sulphur cats and Monarch cats and Swallowtail cats and so on ..... I could see the Sulphur being "prissy". And the Monarchs being your typical cat in personality! And the BST being the BIG lumbering cats. (Little heads, BIG body!) And the butterfly could tell the little cat not to be afraid to morph and go to sleep in the chrysalis stage. We have a story line! LOL
And when they finish that movie, they can make one about hummingbirds! I can think of a cute story line about a little ruby throat who gets stuck in a storm and is befriended by a little girl or an old lady who saves it's life. Isn't there a book written about a hand-raised hummer? Seems I remember something about a true story of a family that had a hummer live in their house.
You have to include those scary, ugly hornworms that everyone thinks are mean, but are actually like Shrek, sweet and tender. And the gypsy moths are high society because they look like they have jewels on. I'm liking this.
lol
Just logging on for a moment, my haven't we got active imaginations!!! I will have to read again when I can absorb some of the ideas floating around. ROFLOL!!
Oh and, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL OF YOU!!!
This message was edited Nov 23, 2006 10:50 AM
Of course fly~
The hummie moths take the night shift, lol.
I think the Zebra Longwing Butterflies should belong to the "hood" because they gather together at night and they all have their black and white striped "colors" on! LOL
Gulf Fritillaries are a little wacky by their flight. Perhaps they should be the slightly crazy butterflies. You know - "Thrill seekers" or ADHD butterflies! Maybe rock stars because they have that "spikey" hair thing going on as cats! Maybe Red Hot Chili Peppers clones because they are so "colorful" and "wild" flying as butterflies. They don't stand still for long! (Definitely ADHD!)
Eastern Black Swallowtails should be "goths" because of their dark attire and meandering ways. The cats are normal but as they morph they are trying to "find themselves" and see the darker side of life.
Luna Moth are definitely Movie Starlets! Only seen at night in public and always dressed to the hilt! Glamorous!
Queens are posers. Monarch wanna-bees! They have no identity, but pick friends like the Monarch because they want to be like them! They copy everything the Monarchs do!
Malachites are the wealthy! You can tell that just by the way they look .... always impressive and "fine". They have power and wealth! Noone messes with them! LOL
Common Buckeye are the intelligent butterflies! Those eye spot on the wings make them look all-knowing! And nerdy! Perhaps a librarian or computer geek! LOL
And the Cassius Blue is the real hero of the story. A short, stocky little cat who has his own odd style going on. (He looks like he's wearing plaid or stripes as a cat.) Being short he is timid and avoids conflict, but always tries to be helpful. And in the end he saves the day for the Monarch!
LOL! I have been thinking of cat and butterfly personalities by their behavior and appearance! Anyone else have any character ideas?
Those are GREAT Becky! You know more about music than your teens think you do. I love the "Queens are posers"! LOL!! I wish I was creative but I'll have to work behind-the-scenes.
Sure do Becky,
We are working with some special characters here.. Spicebush is a must! All these ideas are great everybody! Queens are posers, good! We need main conflict for the story now. Something fiesable, but dangerous...yet not too grim.
Why not battle the fire ants? or that invisible marching army of milkweed aphids?
And the assassin bugs dressed in warfare with the dreaded soldier bugs. The Coppers could be the lep police lol.
Conflict: I was thinking a Spicebush ST finding no more of thier host plant. Monarchs relate to this... Herbicides causing less host plants for all butterflies, even when they find them they are treated with pesticides, ack!. Some human character like polyanna steps in and grows the host plant all over her town, and word spreads with the butterflies and other peope begin to grow host plants without using poisons. still needs polish, lots of it lol That part of the plot will involve a part of the happy ending with all the cute lil SBST cats, along with cats of all kind, waving to the Monarchs going back to Mexico...wheels turning.
Awww .... yes! Perfect plot! Plus funny and likable characters!
I just saw that Charlotte's Web has been remade with Dakota Fanning. I want to go see that! I wish it was on video/dvd so that my students could see it! We study spiders and farm animals in class, too!
Make sure that the movie is released at Christmas time, Deb! Everyone sends their kids to the G movies so the parents can go Santa shopping! ;-D
And Polyanna might run into trouble with the neighborhood HOA.