Anyone live in Western garden zones 14-17?

If so, do you feel lucky?

It's absolutely amazing how many plants are listed in the WGB as zones X-9,14-17. Literally hundreds. I mean you may have figured this out to some extent just by the offerings at the nurseries but I highly recommend "the book".

If you went by the USDA zone system you would see that virtually all of the plants that are listed as WGB X-9, 14-17 would fall into USDA 7 or 8 and you might not consider it.

I've tried to figure out why this is - I think it's partially due to the heat moderating effect of the humidity in the summer combined with winters just cold enough to meet dormancy requirements but this does not seem like an adequate explanation.

I think it's really that we don't (usually at least) have extended periods of extreme heat in the summer or extreme cold in the winter. Extended periods of either heat or cold will bring about the demise of many different types of plants, but since we don't have either of those, it opens up a huge range of plants that can be grown here. Since we don't have the extreme summer heat, we can grow a lot of things that can't be grown in other warm areas of the country like Texas or much of the South, and since we don't have extreme winter cold we can also grow some of the less hardy tropical stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with being cold enough to meet dormancy requirements--many of the plants that have dormancy/winter chilling requirements don't tend to do as well here because in general we don't get cold enough for long enough (lilacs for example).

I will pay some attention to the USDA zones as a lower limit since the zones are based only on coldest winter temps, and something that won't in zone 9b somewhere else in the country likely won't survive in zone 9b here either, but when they list the upper end of the hardiness range as being zone 7 or 8 I will always ignore that--those ratings are based on the assumption that if you're warmish in the winter you're also blazing hot all summer long (which is the case in most other areas of the country that are zone 9 but is absolutely not the case here). Personally I don't believe USDA zones should be used for anything but winter hardiness. The American Horticultural Society has developed the AHS heat zones (measures avg # of days per year over 86 degrees), which if you use those together with the USDA zones can provide a better guess for what plants will do well where. Sunset zones are the best because they account for summer highs and rainfall as well as winter lows but unfortunately they aren't widely used except on the west coast.

Thanks ecrane,

Makes perfect sense. I always wondered what meaning the upper limit on the USDA had if it was all based on coldest winter temps!

Let me ask a slightly more specific question - my wife bought a herbaceous peony. They sell quite a bit of them around here. Although sunset lists them for 14-20, elsewhere in the book it says they are not recommended for zone 16 (this is splitting hairs to some extent of course). In this case I think it's because of insufficient winter chill but I'm not sure. In general will peonies thrive in the bay area with the possible exception of areas very close to the coast?

I think you're probably right about the winter chill--zone 16 doesn't get much frost at all whereas 14 & 15 definitely do get some (I've lived in both so I know!). I'm not sure where zones 17-20 are so don't know if they would get frost or not. Peonies are one of the plants that I've heard don't do as well here, but maybe someone else from around here who's grown them will chime in with some actual experience! Only time I've had them was when I lived in Ohio. And of course if you already have the plant then it's definitely worth trying!

zone 17 where I live is definitely not peony country. Not enough winter chill. Tree peonies do a little better, but are so slow growing it's painful to pay all that money and have to wait a decade before it reaches any size.

Several years ago, I uprooted several parts of peony plants from my father's garden who lived in western N.Y. They all bloom. I'm in Berkeley.

dun1kirk,

You're saying you moved them from New York to Berkeley? Wow, now that's dedication.

I did some more research on the web and I found out that there is quite a bit of variation in the chill requirements of herbacious peonies.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1216/is_n4_v201/ai_21248589

http://www.plantdel.com/Catalog/Fall/page78.html

and check this out - want some ice with that peony?

http://www.beniciagarden.com/article_files/121897a.htm

I did read somewhere that you'll have better luck with the early flowering varieities in areas that do not get enough chill for them.
Sherry

I live in zone 16, San Anselmo. I would say their zoning is quite precise, although the microclimates RULE! My neighbours, who live down the street, and I mean down, it's a climb up here, have a lot more frost damage than me.
I feel very lucky with our growing season of about 250 days!
I grew up in cold Belgium, where the growing season is around 100 days, if you can live with the rain!

Wow, nice yard Mrs Colla!

I thought I had too many plants. So far I have not had any frost damage but I'm bringing in some potted plants today because it's predicted to get down to 25 deg which would be a record for me so far. My hybrid tea roses finally gave up blooming but I planted a couple of potted floribundas 3 months ago and they are still blooming!
I also planted a purple candles astilbe a few months ago and it just emerged. Hopefully it will be OK.

The only other newly planted border perennials which are showing growth are various salvia, twinspur, dianthus and Belladonna lilies which have a few inches of growth at best. Should I do anything with these?

First we get a few 115 deg days now this. Guess I shouldn't complain.

I am holding my heart in my hands for the coming nights.... I will be out of town for 3 days, so there is not much I can do about the frost.
But, my local nursery man told me to put CLOUDCOVER on the plants, it's said that that spray makes a difference of about 15 degrees. Let's hope it's true!

I googled it, and here is a link to a forum about the product, and other frost protection products out there.
http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/38935.html
Christie

Stuff like Cloud Cover can help, not sure if it really gets you 15 degrees, my guess is more like 5 or maybe 10 but it definitely can help. Just make sure to read the instructions, I have CC and it says not to use on fuzzy-leaved plants, I would imagine the other sprays would have a similar warning. And a lot of the stuff in my garden has fuzzy leaves!

I was gone two weeks on vacation and was so surprised at how bad my brugs and bananas looked, I didn't realize it had gotten that cold. I plan to get some Cloud Cover and sheets to try to protect a few other things I can't bring in.
Here's my huge double white brug, it's been in the ground about 3-4 years and the first year died completely down from the cold but this frost may be as bad as '98.

Calif_Sue, your Brug may not be as bad as you think. In Spring, when the frostdanger is gone, you can prune your plant (cut ABOVE the Y),
and you'll probabely be surprised how she comes back. Mine get frostbitten too, but they are very forgiving.

Goodluck, and wish me some too; I have about 10 baby citrus trees, especially at risk...

Here is my pride and joy red banana after I repotted it. The leaves were up over the house in Dec.

And tonight



Oh, I am not worried about the brug at all, I have several large ones in the ground and have for years. This one even was mush down to the ground but it always comes back. Just sets them back size wise. Besides, if I do totally loose them, I always have a good source for cuttings. Thats why I love DG.

Hey Calif_Sue, could we talk you into going on another one of your spontaneous house tours of your neighborhood and bring back some pictures and great commentary on the pros and cons of each. We love them!

LOL, Samedis I always travel with a camera and will be doing some more house and garden tours soon, come spring most likely. Stay tuned!

Calif_Sue, Looking forward to it! Where do you normally post?

For the house tour one, I will post in the Garden Design of course but I post garden images based on the plant, either tropicals, brugmansia or daylilies. I don't know if I will be getting any garden tours this year, if so, probably in the Garden Design again like I did with deviant_deziner's garden.

I guess I'm in 15. Yeah, it's a lucky place to be. I'm south of Santa Rosa, and thanks to our local hero Luther Burbank, everyone knows that just about everything grows here.

I saw this post a few months ago and wasn't sure exactly which zone I was in. Since I got my new Western Garden Book it's been easier for me to determine. I think I'm smack dab on the border of zones 16 and 17. Close to the ocean but high enough that I don't get as much of the fog and salt air as those down lower. I can say it's all round perfect weather here and, except for the gophers, the gardening experience is superb. Yes, I feel very lucky.