identification

There was some discussion on the Flickr Morning Glory group whether this is a shot of i. cristulata or i. coccinea.
Any opinions?

here is the original link
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=280492199&context=pool-68219522@N00&size=l

Looks like it to me regards PS but Ron will know

I can't ID but that color is really HOT!!

It was taken in south carolina, where BOTH i. cristulata and i. coccinea habitate.

Isn't it this one???

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORANGE-NOAH-MORNING-GLORY-SEEDS-SEED-4-H_W0QQitemZ150051166476QQihZ005QQcategoryZ75624QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Of course no proper name given but the seller might know and just not bother to post it

It is not for sale on ebay. It is a photo someone took in an empty lot in south carolina, and we are trying to identify. The previous link did not work for me, so I can't check. I think Ipomoea cristulata is also called transpecos.

This message was edited Oct 30, 2006 11:47 AM

This message was edited Oct 30, 2006 12:01 PM

where in south carolina? If its not too far, I'll go um borrow some.

X

LOL wigles Ears

Ha! I'll have to ask the photographer! He did say it was in Anderson County.

This message was edited Oct 30, 2006 1:47 PM

Rats .. its on the other side of South Carolina. Too far.

X

My ID of the plant that I can see in the photo would be Ipomoea coccinea based upon the shape of the leaf and the partially reflexed seedpod pedicel visible in the center of the photo...to my mind the leaf shape is important,otherwise there is nothing to differentiate Ipomoea cristulata from the most common structural variations that occur in Ipomoea coccinea...

My question would be to those who think it is Ipomoea cristulata >what feature(s) are you looking at and are visible in the photo that leads you think that it is Ipomoea cristulata as opposed to Ipomoera coccinea(?)...I'm all eyes and ears...


The Id features involve a number of aspects to be viewed individually and ultimately in the conglomerate

The behaviour of the seedpod pedicel as to whether it remains fully erect,reflexes completely and swells(!) after fertilization similar to the way an Ipomoea purpurea seedpod pedicel both swells and reflexes...and sometimes the seedpod pedicel seems to only partially reflex and may or may not swell...the length of the sepals is longer in Ipomoea coccinea and shorter in Ipomoea hederifolia,but alas(!)...the literature is still skewed because some botanists only measured the sepal length up to the point that it begins to arch away from the capsule and others take into consdideration the entire(!) sepal adding in the additional length of the part that forms the awning...

The length of the tube(!) before the limb starts to flare away,the length of the stamens and pistil and the degree to which they extend out past the tube...the width of the sepals and the degree to wgich it forms a very tapered point...
The depth of the 'cut' on the leaf...and the degree to which the indentation makes the lobes,especially the most central lobes appear as almost(!) separate(!) leaves...

I have looked at alot(!) of photos of what is variously called Ipomoea hederifolia,Ipomoea coccinea and Ipomoea cristulata and there is definitely still alot of confusion over the Identity keys of these species...add in that some specimens of Ipomoea cristulata was formerly called Ipomoea coccinea var.hederifolia...until it was more generally officialy agreed that there was indeed a specie distinction...



Ipomoea hederifolia supossedly...but the seedpod pedicels are definitely partially reflexing...I have my doubts...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/82357/


Here is what is in the PlantFiles

I thought I would mention about the seedpod behaviour because most of the ID's on the web,including those in the PlantFiles here regarding Ipomoea hederifolia and the closely related species like Ipomoea coccinea,Ipomoea cristulata and a few others are notoriously misidentified because the plant flowers and leaves can all show very similar colors and variations...

This entry for Ipomoea hederifolia yellow is definitely correct...notice how the seedpod stem is definitely fully erect,the pedicel is short,relatively thin and unswollen and deifinitely very pointy below the level of the almost mature seedcapsule.....
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/81986/

This photo for Ipomoea hederifolia also shows seedpods that are clearly correct for Ipomoea hederifolia and are horizontally pointy without covering any of the mature but still green seedpod
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/89583/


This is Ipomoea hederifolia incorrectly placed in Ipomoea coccinea...look at the seedpod stems
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/58950/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/58951/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/52431/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/56545/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/57940/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/115427/


This ostensible Ipomoea 'hederifolia' has seedpods that are definitely at least partially reflexed but not swollen...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/98596/


All other photos for Ipomoea hederifolia and Ipomoea coccinea entered in the PlantFiles do not show enough seedpod aspects to enable an accurate species ID...


So,what does it all mean...(?)...

I personally am not completely convinced that the current defintions are always very clear cut and the combination of key features may still need to be reviewed and further revised...

I am still trying to get different species that I've collected from different parts of the country and different parts of the world grown out so that I can do more of my own comparisons >including the seed characteristics...

If the seedpods remain fully erect(and this always seems to be accompanied by a thin unswollen pedicel)...the species is Ipomoea hederifolia to the best of my current knowledge and perspective...


If the seedpod pedicels swell and reflex it is not Ipomoea hederifolia and is probably Ipomoea coccinea or Ipomoea cristulata...

Here is an entry from the PlantFiles that was retracted due to the ambiguous Identity...scroll down to read my original comments...at this point I'd say that it is Ipomoea coccinea,due to degree of reflexure of the pedicels along with the width of the sepals and that they are covering about half of the almost mature seedcapsule...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/112320/index.html
here is the 'trick' url for the full sized photo
http://davesgarden.com/pics/RON_CONVOLVULACEAE_1127627712_966.jpg

If the leaves appear to be very indented to look like or almost like separate leaves...it is probably Ipomoea cristulata...

Ipomoea hederifolia and cristulata should both have repro parts that are more excised>sticking out beyond the top of the tube than Ipomoea coccinea...

There will be plants that show features that are more typical of a species and be easier to ID and there are definitely plants that display variations in the usual key features and these plants seem resistant to a very definitive ID...and in those cases you should state what you think it most closely resembles,but that you think it prudent to refrain from a definitive ID due to inconsistent or overlapping features...and that is traditionally the best that can be done...
the overlapping variations in this group of species can make definitive ID's very elusive even to the Best taxonomists...
depending on the school of thought,some taxonomists will place more of an emphasis on different parts...and even DNA testing can sometimes upset the 'apple cart' of the physically observable feature key(s)...so,swhere overlap exists it is best to state it...

Do you all really want to take a 'dip in the fire' of the 'mindgames' that taxonomist's are presented with..(?!?)...

I am more than interested in any ID keys that someone can bring attention upon that would present a more definitive differential identity key to apply to the afiorementioned species...


Just thought I'd share my ID information and perspectives on this 'challenging' little group of plants...


Thanks for the oppurtunity to share(!)...

TTY,...

Ron

The photographer himself thought it was I. cristulata, but only because he couldn't find an entry on I. coccinea. I will give him a link to this page so he can read the differences.

A few additional notatations

Ipomoea coccinea...notice the reflexed seedpod pedicels...
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/Images/PCD2522/D/54.jpg

Ipomoea coccinea Calyx 6-8 mm long; fruit reflexed
Ipomoea hederifolia Calyx 4-4.5 mm long; fruits erect

TTY,...

Ron