Morning glory v sweet potato!

Ok so i have ornamentals of both but they don't survive the winter here. So if i could cross them like simply heavenly blue with blackie i could have a perenial with great blue flowers and dark leaves.

Just i doubt its possible!

Anyone know if its been done or even possible? There in the same group so i can't see why not but i really dont know. How well do Ipomea's cross?

Thanks

Mike

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the Morning Glory Forum...

Check out this thread here

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/662870/

TTY,...

Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the link. That was some heavy reading! Lol

So from what i read its pretty much impossible (not completely but nearly) to cross I purp with a I bat
Unless i can fine some thing close to make a few jumps maybe I pur x I nil and cross it with a I bat x ? (does that exist?)

Am i understanding this correctly?

Where do i find the true names of varieties from? I have lots of Ipomea but not sure if there purp nils or just plain thingymebobs! Lol

Speak soon

Mike

Hi Mike,

This is(!) the MG forum...so be careful what you ask for...

What I shared in the thread linked to above is that most inter-specific hybrids are all with very closely related plants within the same series or section...

Take another look at the Series and Sections I listed on the Hybrid listings...

Inter-specific hybrids are more in the realm of possibility if the 2 different species are in the same Series or Section,but Ipomoea batatas has only been hybridized with other Ipomoea species in the Batatas series...so hybridizing Ipomoea nil or Ipomoea purpurea with something in the batatas series would be a large jump to attempt between plants that are not closely related enough...

The Youjiro hybrids work as an interbridge for Ipomoea nil and Ipomoea purpurea because the hybrid already has some of both species in it already...Dr.Yoneda did the hardest initial work by crossing the different closely related species...

Post photos of what plants you have and I will offer an ID as to the identity and point out what structures are the keys to look for...

Photos showing the sepals at the base of the flower and on the seedpod are usually the most helpful ...

Here are some excellent photo entries from the PlantFiles

Ipomoea purpurea sepals and reflexed seedpod redicels...short wide and not curling
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/22914/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/22916/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/31407/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/130654/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/52392/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/62980/

Ipomoea hederacea sepals...long curving outward and curving downward
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/89494/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/89496/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/125104/
Ipomoea hederacea showing lower secondary bracts at the base of the pedicel swelling which also curve outward like the upper sepals
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/91084/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/125102/

Ipomoea nil sepals thin elongated and only sometimes with very little curving downward
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1693754
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1693745
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/zemerson_1129836493_870.jpg
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/91303/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/84351/
w lower bracts showing at base of pedicel and these secondary bracts remain straight up,just like the sepals.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/91305/

Ipomoea nil sepal and leaf comparison of similar,but different cultivars
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1731386
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1681054

Ipomoea tricolor sepals at flowerbudbase,flowerbuds and seedpods
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/106781/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/89823/

Hopefully these photos on the sepals of the most common Ipomoea morning glories will provide you with a good reference...

TTY,...

Ron


This message was edited Oct 31, 2006 9:28 PM

Wow.
Ron i am in complete amazement of your knowledge. I owe you! I have learnt more here than i have reading books on plant breeding. (thats a hint that you should publish you knowledge)

I take it Ipomoea have to be MG's in this forum to be worth mentioning! Lol

The seed/plants i currently have are

GUESS LOOKED INTO A LITTLE DEEPER
Ipomoea alba (Not a clue to its group but i guess tricolour) ..... maybe its on its own????
Ipomoea cardinal climber (Hederafolia?) ....... as above? plant files say sloteri is that a group?
Ipomoea flying saucers (purpurea? ............. second guess Tricolour?
Ipomoea lobata (Mina lobata) (now this one has me) ............ on its own again? Surely not.
Ipomoea split personality (has to be purpurea?) ............ Still think i'm right, but tell me i'm wrong
Ipomoea tye dye (and again) ............ Now maybe Nil
Ipomoea purpurea heavenly blue (this one i know) ............ Plant files says tricolour. I was robbed Lol
Ipomoea split blue (Purpurea) ............ Now i'm thinking tricolour
Ipomoea tricolor blues band (Well sold as tricolour but i woudn't have guessed)

The only pictures i have are the Ipomea lobata ones that are on the plant files. The other have not had flowers of my own except lobata and heavenly blue.

Back to my original question ....... Its a no then... Lol Shame would have opened them up to a whole new auidience.

I've never seen the flower from a sweet potatoe so i might be pleasently surprised!

Speak soon

Mike


edited after i'd had some time to look into it better. Still think Ron should write a book.

This message was edited Nov 1, 2006 5:10 PM

Do any of the other members want to chirp in to provide the botanical names of the types he has just listed?

I will chirp in with I second his suggestion on you being an author. :o)

Hi Ron,

So is the Ipomoea in this thread any closer? http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/666298/

I will find my crossing subject one day Lol

Mike

I don't know how cold your winters are, but I. bolusiana is from warm africa and I have been told to bring it in for the winter. It also is difficult to get seeds produced and often is reproduced by cuttings. If you want an easy cross that will produce seeds, this one will not be it!

Grrrrrr.. One day Lol

mike_freck - I made mention of this
" This is(!) the MG forum...so be careful what you ask for..."

Sort of tongue in cheek...as some of us have been trying raise the quality of the information presented...all Convolvulaceae and closely related subjects are fair game for the majority of discussion and interesting divergences can also provide for some fertile stimulation...

The PlantFiles already has alot of information on the types that you asked about...consider using the search engine to pull up the entries for the botanical names and/or the cultivars...see what's in there and if something doesn't jive...share your investigations with the group...


PlantFile basic search engine page
http://davesgarden.com/pf/adv_search.php?Search=Click+here+to+search+for+plants

I think some of the other members who have learned about the following could have answered your questions,but...if questions remain unanswered...I'm currently 'elected' by default...I hope to see more members taking a little time to answer questions that they do know the answers to...just like someone took the time to share with them...

You asked about the following:

GUESS LOOKED INTO A LITTLE DEEPER...look a little bit deeper to the basic entries in the PlantFiles for each type by cultivar and/or by botanical names...

Ipomoea alba (Not a clue to its group but i guess tricolour) ..... maybe its on its own????
http://davesgarden.com/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=Ipomoea&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=alba&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=genus&images_prefs=both&Search=Search
The Subgenus,Section and Series are not currently part of the structure of the PlantFiles,but the binomial and cultivar are more often than not usually accurate...please check the comments added to the lower section of the main entry page and the comments posted to each individual photo for additional feedback on the image presented
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Quamoclit section: Calonyction

Here is their link for the comments that I have added
http://davesgarden.com/pf/commentsbyuser.php?user=RON_CONVOLVULACEAE

Ipomoea cardinal climber (Hederafolia?) ....... as above? plant files say sloteri is that a group?
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/662/index.html
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Quamoclit section: Mina

Ipomoea flying saucers (purpurea? ............. second guess Tricolour?
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/51630/index.html
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Quamoclit section: Tricolor

Ipomoea lobata (Mina lobata) (now this one has me) ............ on its own again? Surely not.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/1317/index.html
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Quamoclit section: Mina

Ipomoea split personality (has to be purpurea?) ............ Still think i'm right, but tell me i'm wrong
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/88339/
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Ipomoea section: Pharbitis series: Pharbitis

Ipomoea tye dye (and again) ............ Now maybe Nil
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/51636/index.html



Ipomoea purpurea heavenly blue (this one i know) ............ Plant files says tricolour. I was robbed Lol
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/21088/

Ipomoea split blue (Purpurea) ............ Now I'm thinking tricolour
I think the Blue Split Personality is closely bordering on the higes which usually show more tendril like shredding,,,especially on the outside of the corolla
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/127326/
Genus: Ipomoea subgenus: Ipomoea section: Pharbitis series: Pharbitis

Ipomoea tricolor blues band (Well sold as tricolour but i wouldn't have guessed)
This 'Blues Band' is apparently another one of the never ending series of new marketing names on old cultivars...everyone wants to put a special name of their own on the plants...this is fine as long as the person does not make false claims to new cultivars and keeps the botanical name correct...

Companies cannot be relied upon to provide accurate botanical information...their main sustaining energy is sales(!)...any botanical consultants are most usually have a general range of botanical knowledge and as such do not posses the knowledge to render fully accurate ID's in specialized categories of plants...

Sometimes Ipomoea hederacea will produce flowers that split at the upper portion of the corolla...Thomson & Moragan offered these mistakenly labeled as Ipomoea hirsuta...


The only pictures i have are the Ipomea lobata ones that are on the plant files. The other have not had flowers of my own except lobata and heavenly blue.

Back to my original question ....... Its a no then... Lol Shame would have opened them up to a whole new audience.

Actually,I see the audience increasingly every single day as more and more people realize the vast diversity that is already present in the family of plants...

"I've never seen the flower from a sweet potatoe so i might be pleasently surprised!

Here are some entries in the PlantFiles of Ipomoea batatas flowering...so far all of the flowers entered are of 3 cultivars
'Blackie',
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/61505/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/117105/
'Carolina Purple'
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/80716/
'Margarita'
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/30183/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/87861/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/30179/

Some PlantFile entries that I personally view as incorrect entries based on reference sources other than those used by the PlantFiles here

Ipomoea hederacea entered as Ipomoea hirsuta
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/344261/

Ipomoea hirsuta was the species epithet first applied by Thompson & Morgan suppliers and subsequently mimicked by other suppliers.
There does not seem to be any substantiation in the taxonomic literature that this I.'hirsuta' is a legitimate species epithet

Ipomoea purpurea entered as Ipomoea nil...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/653331/
the link to the MG thread discussion I believe to be very relevant

Ipomoea tricolor previously entered in Ipomoea violacea with some added notations and links for reference
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/663565/

Convolvulaceae is a very large family and the exacting ID's have often stumped the World's experts for many years...relying on the ID supplied by a merchant or even well-intentioned traders can be folly...

Horticultural organizations provide excellent growing information in addition to details on the 'look' of a cultivar being marketed...the main actual area of focus of horticultural based organizations is understandably different than those scientists who are taxonomic specialists...
Horticultural organizations depend upon and reference the scientists who are experts in specific areas of taxonomy for taxonomic information...taxonomic specialists do not depend on horticultural organizations for accurate up to date taxonomics...this is a very significant aspect to keep in mind when accurate up to date taxonomic info such as binomials and in particular species epithets are called into question...

I prefer references of serious taxonomic specialists in the Convolvulaceae family for detailed taxonomic information over any horticultaral organizational references...as there is often an understandable lag in the updating of taxonomic information...


Here is a link to B&T World seeds for Convolvulaceae...many of their binomials for the most commonly grown MG's are grossly inaccurate
http://www.b-and-t-world-seeds.com/a1.asp?title=Convolvulaceae&list=322
They like many other large merchants supply alot of smaller merchants and the ID's simply get mimicked...it is most likely not possible for large merchants to verify the botanical ID of all of their plants,let alone the seeds(!)...
I am glad that B&T world seeds exists and I have placed many orders with them over the years...the seeds received are often not as described and sometimes turn out to be an interesting surprise,but I think most people would prefer that whatever they order actually be accurately described...this is an ideal to strived for,but again most often not realistic to expect...

I've seen plenty of various databases all over the entire web full of chaos...often due to a combination of naivety of the posters,viewers not willing to be critical and people taking criticism of material posted as a 'personal attack'...all of the aforementioned can be lethal to the objective credibility of any serious reference database...there is a place for being frivolous,but regarding the accuracy of the entries in the any reference database 'fuzzy' entries are in the long run >detrimental and perpetuate misleading information that gets rapidly multiplied all over the entire web like a virus...

Trying to maintain accuracy on the botanical names and the cultivars can be very(!) challenging...but somebody has to do it and I try my best...(!)...

My attempts to maintain reliable accuracy are often subject to being interpreted as being 'unfriendly'...I believe that a database full of misinformation is realistically much more unfriendly than the people who strive to maintain healthy high degrees of quality control...

Please be aware that my comments regarding potential and sometimes actual pitfalls that can undermine the objective integrity on databases are my views on any databases and not specifically targeting the database here...


Thanks for your questions and hope my offerings will prove to be of dependable value in both the short and long term ...

TTY,...

Ron


This message was edited Oct 31, 2007 1:54 AM

Ron,
We all value your attemps to keep the Plantfiles accurate since some of us newbies are using them as our MG bible!
Beth

Ron,
Thanks loads. I will look at those links and re-read in a while. (not enough time to give it the time it deserves right this minute)

And Ron don't worry about coming across as rude to me i have very thick skin and often write what i'm thinking. Which sometimes sounds rude.
I have made enemies allready on here, when i was only having fun.

Write that book Ron!

Mike

I found an interesting article published by ISHS that might help you on your quest, Mike. Here is the abstract:

REVEALING GENETIC DIVERSITY OF THREE SECTIONS (PHARBITIS, QUAMOCLIT AND BATATAS) OF IPOMOEA GENUS BY MEANS OF RAPD ANALYSIS
Authors: M. Ardelean, M. Cordea, D. Pamfil, N.W. Blackhall, S.C. Andras, M.R. Davey, J.B. Power
Keywords: DNA markers, genetic polymorphism, species, phylogenetic proximity
Abstract:
RAPD markers have been used to develop genetic fingerprints for 12 Ipomoea species and eight lines of I. rubro-coerulea. Out of the 18 primers initially acquired, only 15 were of real use producing fingerprints suitable for analysis. 114 distinct bands were produced by the remaining 15 primers, resulting in a rather high mean of 7.6 bands/primer. Out of the 15 primers used, only three revealed an obvious polymorphism of the eight I. rubro-coerulea lines indicating that some of the I. rubro-coerulea lines show the same high level of polymorphism at the molecular level, as the tested Ipomoea species do. All 15 primers revealed significant polymorphism when only the species of Ipomoea genus were taken into consideration. The dendrogram constructed on the basis of computed genetic distances confirmed the affiliation of the tested Ipomoea species to the morphologically classified sections Pharbitis, Quamoclit and Batatas. The greatest genetic distance seems to be between section Batatas and the other two ornamental sections (Pharbitis and Quamoclit). Considering each section separately, the most homogeneous species structure was found in section Quamoclit while the other two sections showed a rather high heterogeneity of the comprised species. There can be concluded that RAPD analysis proved to be a valuable tool in identifying phylogenetic relationships among Ipomoea species. This kind of information could be of real help in identifying the most interfertil genitors for interspecific crosses required by breeding programs both of I. batatas and of ornamental Ipomoea species.

You have to purchase the entire paper but I don't think the cost is very much.

I will chirp in and say I attempted to cross a purpurea with a ipomea nil and the bud fell off resulting in zero seeds. Ron filled me in on the fact that these were related but not closely enough for it to be a common occurance in nature. In other words it was extremely unlikely. I got tired of wasting time watching buds fall off the plants too. :)

It isn`t "wrong" to try things because that is part of learning.

One thing is for sure if you want to save time then studying what the different varieties are and which ones have been studied as far as crossing them together is much like using a road map rather than winging it on your own.

Found a crack in my plan....... I need a sweet potato with flowers before i even worry about crossing them!

i have plenty of different Ipomoea seeds of different kind for this coming year and i'll be experimenting like crazy!

Mike