Question, please...

A friend of mine has told me, "The MG's will all cross - you probably will not end up with any Japanese ones... I think the Moonflowers will stay true and I am hoping the Red Cypress VInes will come true, but the seeds for all others will all revert to basic purple color. I don't think you can keep them far enough apart - they must be netted off & manually pollinated to keep the colors true."

Is this really the case? And if so, isn't it fruitless to trade MG seeds? While I'm sure there must be some validity to this statement, (the gal has been my mentor in many gardening undertakings), I have received "collected" seeds in the past, and they have grown to be the colors I was expecting. How can this be? Is there a time-line for them growing true. (ie, the collected seeds will come true, but subsequent plantings will revert?)

Please help a very confused JMG lover!

Hey, Ron - have you no answer for me???

I certainly did not forget you...Did you really think I would let this one 'get by'... ...be careful what you ask for...


This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 6:31 AM

You're a doll, thank you! i was afraid it was such a stupid question no one wanted to answer me!

Thank you!

Sequee, I`m one of the people here waiting with you to see the answer. :)



This message was edited Sep 1, 2006 5:34 PM

Your question(s) are far from being 'stupid'>in fact the questions you have asked are extremely relevant...

Okay...first things first..and I'm going to try to keep this simple...but>... (!)..

Ipomoea quamoclit will only cross fertilize another Ipomoea quamoclit and the same is true for the Ipomoea alba.


You mentioned;
"...but the seeds for all others will all revert to basic purple color. I don't think you can keep them far enough apart - they must be netted off & manually pollinated to keep the colors true."
"Is this really the case?"
" And if so, isn't it fruitless to trade MG seeds?"
"I have received "collected" seeds in the past, and they have grown to be the colors I was expecting. How can this be?"
" Is there a time-line for them growing true. (ie, the collected seeds will come true, but subsequent plantings will revert?)"

The only way to be certain(!) that whatever you have stays as close to the original type as possible> is to
a)do hand pollination with strict controls or
b)allow fertilization to occur only within sufficient isolation...

The strains that are particularly rare should preferably be hand pollinated to insure both fertilization and integrity of the type...

The degree to which the proceedures to insure true types are in fact > implemented(!),> will directly correlate with the degree to which the types will remain true. >usually...but,open pollinated cultivars that show various degrees of resistance(!) to dilution of the particular cultivar traits are certainly possible to achieve >sometimes...

The first steps are to isolate the variation and to sufficiently reproduce the selection to insure preservation of the selected type >as not all types will turn out to be relatively open pollinated stable...

There are a number of factors that would variously predispose/dispose/weigh in favor of a flower outcrossing(!) to a different(!) (geno)-type within the same species> which is counterbalanced by a number of factors that weigh in favor of the occurence of an >intra-cultivar fertilization either as a self fertilization and/or with another plant of the same cultivar.

Morning Glory plants of a particular cultivar that are allowed to freely/openly cross pollinate with different cultivars or non-cultivars within the same species > will have a much higher degree of actual intra-specific(!) cross fertilizations and deviations from the particular cultivar or type that you are interested to preserve,..
> but there are a number of counterbalancing factors that weigh against total (!) cross fertilization between cultivars and non-cultivars within the same species
>including> flowers that naturally self-fertilize/have a higher selfing rate, general pollen dispersal factors, pollen structure specifics, and genetic factors that predispose towards intra-cultivar fertilization, etc...so,
>depending on the sum total of all factors involved in any particular situation
>the actual percentage of intra-cultivar fertilizations will vary and occur with a certain percentage of unwanted cross fertilizations.

First multiplying your selection by restricting fertilizations to hand pollination or various degrees of isolated pollination is a very good idea to safeguard and preserve the variation you have,
>then progressively exposing the variation to the full force of open-pollination to see if any seeds and plants of the variation will withstand open pollination and remain relatively true...
if any should withstand open-pollination whilst still retaining enough of the features that you hope to preserve > then you just might have a relatively open pollinated stable type >that might remain open pollinated stable for a long time...
but, >if the variation loses it features when exposed to open pollination >then you may have to resort back to more restricted fertilization environments and/or procedures in order to maintain the desired features...some loss of features is usually part of creating an open-pollinated stable type and is to be expected...that's the way it is...

Various strategies involving crossings between different filial lines and generations may be necessary to achieve the desired result > i.e.,playing around with the genetic pool in different ways to see what you get(!)...

So,regarding plants that are open-pollinated >there may be a percentage of seeds that will remain true to type even if open pollinated,
>but the percentage of those seeds and plants that remain true to the original type will often steadily decrease >in direct proportion to the degree that strict controls are not implemented...
>and with each successive generation the incidence of observeable and/or hidden variables will be increased > and directly related to what other pollen/genetics the plants are exposed to...the result can often stabilize after a number of generations,but the plants can continue to cycle in terms of stability or unstability...this is part of the process of adaptation and is actually a continuing ongoing process with most forms of life...

Genetic alterations that do occur may increasingly manifest as crossings, mutations of different types and some reversions to the more ancestral types...
>although,true reversions within intra-cultivars to darker ancestral colors will not always occur,because some of the lighter color pigmentational changes are the result of irreversable enzymatic mutations that never (or almost never) regain the previous enzymatic structures >so the original darker color cannot re-occur unless genes carrying the lost enzyme sequences are re-introduced into the genome through various types of outcrossings...

This can be reduced to the following 3 statements:

1) The closer you stay within strict controls during intra-cultivar fertilization,the greater the likelihood the resultant seeds will be true to type.

2) The farther the fertilizational environment strays from strict intra-cultivar controls,the less likely the resultant seeds will be true to the original cultivar type.

3) Even open pollinated plants can potentially (eventually) develop various types of intra- and inter- fertilizational compatibility or incompatibilty on the self,cultivar,species or generic levels.

What does all of this boil down to when it comes to trading and selling seeds(?!?)

Mutations of different types are always possible even with implementation of strict controls and some of these mutational variations may be something that a seed recipient will very much enjoy...
>then again the seed recipient may not like to see any variations, but(!),
>there is always a degree of mutation and variation in any type...
>with the actual degree of any mutation(s) and/or variation(s) differing as per the specific different type(s)
>and this relative degree of variation should ideally be accurately (as possible) reported to any seed recipients...

I would simply state as to whether the seeds offered were open pollinated
>or if strict controls were implemented...
>this way the person receiving the seeds is informed
> and has a better idea of what they should expect...
any descriptions of the main type
>supplemented with any observed variations should be presented accurately and perhaps visually if at all possible...
the more accurately informed a person is regarding what to expect,the less likely they are to be disappointed...


A few links of somewhat related matter

mutations et al related...scroll down to about the middle of the thread to where I mentioned some of the reasons for mutations...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/630478/

some methods of protecting from unintended cross fertilizations>...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/574395/

some discussion of inter-specific hybrid fertilization in MG's...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/541363/

Thread with some related info on 'exactly' >what is a Japanese Morning Glory(?)
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/581971/

Gerris2-Joseph states the following:

"Here is a variant of Shiborazaki, I am finding 3 forms from seeds I took directly out of the commercial foil package."
"There is this one, which is ghost-like, pale corolla with a thin purple line pattern."
Shiborazaki/Shiborizaki variations posted by Gerris2
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=2593367
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=2663337
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=2663282

The following link isn't on mutations,but if you haven't read it before,you might find it interesting...
Effects of lighting on induction of flowering...some shared experience
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/575043/


Hope that helps...

TTY,...

Ron


P.S. - To spare yourself any potential brain 'torture',just go to statement #1, #2 and #3 >and read down from there...gosh(!)>should I have mentioned this at the beginning (?!?)...(hehehe)


This message was edited Sep 3, 2006 10:26 AM

I am "brain tortured" LOL...I think I only understood about a tenth of what you were saying...wow you are very learned in this area! Thanks for sharing, and I will reread so I can absorb more...very interesting indeed!
JanetS

That is fascinating!!! I will bookmark this so I can reread it until it sinks in! Nature truly IS awesome!

(And so are you! Thanks!!!)

Anybody/Everybody -

Well,...I want to answer the questions in a way that readers will understand...so>I need your help to do that...

Please make suggestions on how to most easily convey what I am trying to share...

Does anyone want to ask simple questions with 3 possible answers(?)

1) yes

2) no

3)perhaps,sometimes,possibly

Do you want to dissect one sentence or phrase at a time(?)

Do you need to know what certain terms mean(?)

I'm open to suggestions or anyone who thinks they can translate or paraphrase...

I need >your help to help me >help you...

TTY,...

Ron

Boy Ron your Great Regards Paul

I think what you are saying about the hand pollinating helping but not being a guarantee for true flowers is because there could be hidden genes that crop up. That is where selection comes in. If you see the expression of a gene in "pure" flowers kept in a greenhouse and carefully kept away from insects and other critters and hand pollinated then you know the genes to express the traits are "there" in some or all the flowers(whether expressed or not) so all you can do is keep selecting over many generations to reduce the occurance of the unwanted traits and bring out the desired traits. You get rid of the vines showing full expression of the undesired trait and keep going with the ones that show true to type.

The only way to know for sure if a vine is "pure" is if you could have it tested in a laboratory kind of like the way you can have your dog`s coat color tested with a swab out of the cheek.

Is that possible with flowers? I`m curious.

I sent my black lab`s cells to a laboratory by rubbing a swab in her cheek and mailing it in to be DNA tested and found out she carried for chocolate. Then she threw a large litter of 7 chocolate and 6 black pups. In the litter there were very dark chocolates and some lighter chocolates which indicated to me there were other factors involved in the intensity of color expressed in their coats.

Maybe in flowers there are similarities(not exact comparisons) and perhaps they can be related in a way to help most people understand a little more about the inheritance of color and traits in flowers.

Recessive traits when kept in the same gene pool will breed true but when they are mixed with dominant traits then you get a mix of dominant and recessive that can be expressed in different ways. I find very light colors come true if you keep them pure but you can get unexpected surprises out of flowers showing dominant traits like ray white if they carry recessive traits.

I planted a seed out of a(hand pollinated to self ray white yogiro to grow it out to check and see if it was pure and while most of the vines were ray white one vine produced a solid flower...telling me these yogiros I bought carried for solid. (So this whole batch of flowers is therefore labeled "mixed" since I know some or all the flowers carry for solid) This indicated to me that solid color is recessive to ray white...in this case anyway.

Correct me if I am wrong since I`m practicing hands on growing my flowers.






This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 12:22 PM

gardener2005 - Glad to hear from you...you mentioned
"I think what you are saying about the hand pollinating helping but not being a guarantee for true flowers is because there could be hidden genes that crop up..."

Yes,hidden genes of 2 main different categories

1) hidden recessive or dominant genes...and that these genes that are called either recessive or dominant are often not really completely(!) dominant or completely recessive...the dominance or recessiveness is relative(!) and termed incomplete because a gene is only relatively(!) 'dominant' or 'recessive' to other genes to which that particular gene may be 'dominant' or 'recessive...e.g.,>a 'recessive' gene may be 'dominant' to a more 'recessive' gene...(!)...and the degree of relative dominance or recessiveness is modified by the prescence of a large number of modifier genes...(!)


2) allelemorphic mutations...you may or may not like what these type of genes produce,but you often can't get rid of them...they may be 'hardwired' into the genetic structure permanently and these type of mutational genes are designed by nature to mutate >often in cyclic patterns> through a series of different changes...and the changes that they bring about are part of the nature of that >genotype...the cyclic changes are built-in >permanently(!)...
The timing of the changeing cycles can vary considerably over different periods of time...>some may cycle faster(e.g.,every other generation) and others may cycle alot slower(e.g.,every 15th generation)..some are triggered by unknown factors to cycle faster or slower ....

The genes that are being carried can often be identified by botanical labs specializing in these types of genetics,but many genes remain uncataloged and with sporadic and/or unknown functions...

Ron


P.S.- polymorphic loci...another variable...

It sounds like all you can do is work with what you have and apply basic understanding,hard work and hope for the best. It is impossible for the average gardener to have all the answers but I think an educated guess when you are practicing a fun hobby is better than nothing to go on at all.

I think it is OK to "try" for the best and keep the fingers crossed.


I know with cats Albino white is recessive.

Yet,the white spotting factor is an incomplete dominant, which is affected by modifiers and usually results in a cat that is only partially white or in a completely white coat.

Dominant white is a mutation that overrides all other genes for pigmentation, and produces a white coat and blue eyes. As its name implies, this is the effect of a dominant gene (W).

This is how 2 blue eyed white cats(if they both carry for another color) can have white and colored kittens in the same litter. The only way to know if a dominant white cat does or does not carry for color is through checking the pedigree,test breeding and or laboratory genetic testing.

Another interesting thing is if you breed a chocolate dog to a yellow dog you get Black pups(unless the yellow dog has a brown nose indicating it carries for chocolate) This is because the chocolate is a modifier making the black a lighter color that is chocolate. The yellow dog has no gene for black so the Black will take over making the pups black and the only way chocolate pups will result is if both dogs carry for chocolate.

I`m sure there are some interesting genetic complications such as this in morning glories. While everyone can`t grasp every technical detail most can have some level of understanding that will add to the enjoyment and mystery of the gardening hobby.

P.S. On a lighter note,I wish my cypress vines would crossbreed with a bird and fly away. I`m still pulling them out of JMGs and Rose of Sharons.

This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 1:46 PM

Wonders if gardener has any seeds for Chocolate Lab pups....(grin) I want to buy one for my hubby in the future.

On a more relative topic to the thread...thanks to you both for making a more layman friendly posting regarding a rather intellectually intensive topic; so much more digestible to the newbie reader. I haven't studied alleles since college, when I discovered I actually like science ;)

Ron, your knowledge continues to astound me! Do you do this for a living, or is this just a labor of love?

~Sunny

No,I don`t have seeds for pups. Wouldn`t that be a miracle? LOL :)

gardener2005 - Thanks for your contributions...yes,home garden experiments can be lot's of fun and many new things have been discovered and created by people experimenting at home...

The plastic used on the outer tiles on the space shuttle was created by a farmer in Kentucky(?) experimenting around with common kitchen materials...but,by all means >be careful(!)

Certainly ,some helpful analogies can be used in comparing animal genetics to plant genetics,although since there are a number of significant differences in plant and animal genetics >sometimes there are no 'real' life accurate analogies...each Kingdom has it's own special differing features and applicable mechanisms...e.g., the type of bridging that can occur when the chromosomes are lining up...e.g.,most people are actually not accurately 50% from the mother and 50% from the father...the bridging that occurs can actually cause more genes from either parent to be present in something like e.g., a 53% to 47% mixture...

The Ipomoea yojiros are a true inter-specific hybrid,so they're not going to react exactly like an Ipomoea nil or an Ipomoea purpurea...the yojiros are something new(!) which display features from both of the parent species,but will have some aspects not(!) found in either parent >because new hybridized plant species will have metabolic enzymes that are not present in either of the parents...

The genetic 'permutations' will be different and somewhat analogous to someone doing mutiple level generational crosses between tions and ligers...

Hineni - I'm not so atounding,but Nature is...Knowledge being a reverse pyramid>the more you know >the more you find out what you don't know...each progressive answer provokes twice as many new questions...so long as you live,so long as you learn...

So far,I haven't gotten paid any monies for my interaction(s) with the MG plants...I do it 'just for the head'...but I might change my mind at some point...

After you're aquainted with enough technical aspects,>you eventually think in the same terms...and it becomes difficult not to use terminology that is in fact a sort of conceptual shortcut...

A few terms that I used above and 'clarifications'...

intra-cultivar - occuring within the same cultivar
intra-specific - occuring within the same species

inter-cultivar - occuring between different cultivars
inter-specific - occuring between different species

self incompatibility - a situation where a particular plant is not capable of fertilizing itself and requires the pollen of a compatible plant to form fertile seeds...this incompatibility can be complete(!) or partial to varying degrees

intra-specific incompatibility - a situation where a group of plants within a species becomes completely or partially incompatible

inter-specific incompatibility - a situation where plants that are members of different species are completely or partially incompatible

Hope that helps...

TTY,...

Ron

This message was edited Sep 3, 2006 1:00 PM

Thanks Ron.

Yes, I didn`t mean the comparisons between animals and plants were exact but sort of food for thought to prepare for the longer journey into the complexities of morning glory and plant genetics. It is sort of like the salad before dinner...food for thought if you will. :)

Thanks again for your more in depth explanations and definitions!

This thread has been wonderfully enlightening and will be even more enlightening after nightfall when I have more time to read it - thank you Ron and all.

I just made a discovery in my garden - there's a vine of Hatsu Arashi that keeps throwing strange flowers. Most are gorgeous, large, velvety dark blue-purple with no marks and the edges of the flower are usually smooth and "entire". The other day, there was a fascinating shredded one that I thought might have been shredded by breezes or moths, etc. However, this morning, there is one where the "limb" starts a spiral in the center and then wraps around itself so that it looks like a funnel within a funnel. I didn't "bag" it last night, so it could have crossed with its MG neighbors by now.

My question to you is: at this point, what would you do to try to perpetuate this funnel within a funnel? I'm going to tie a string around it for the time being and try to root some cuttings (A large, venerable-looking woodchuck has appeared within the last 10 days, so this is "insurance"). I hope, when I re-read the above I'll know how to make crosses from this seedlings of this seed in the future. Is there anything else I can do? Perhaps I could trade for seed of an MG more likely to have the funnel within funnel effect for future crosses? Could someone tell me how to save pollen from this flower before it fades?

Thanking anyone for assistance in advance, and apologizing for getting behind in other things. I'll check back every 30 - 60 minutes this afternoon.

bluespiral - I'm wondering if the effect that you are calling a 'spiral within a spiral' is possibly the result of the flower not expanding completely and the spirals that you are seeing are simply the primary and/or secondary folds not unfurling completely(?)...

a link to a thread where I shared on pollinating techniques
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/533754/

To save the pollen,remove the stamens or just the anthers with a cuticle scissors or tweezers...removing some of the filament along with the anthers makes it easier to handle the pollen loaded anthers...hopefully the anthers are looking fluffy with pollen,if they're not fluffy looking,most of the pollen may have already been shed,but there is usually some pollen grains that will still be in the pouch...

Place the stamen part(s) on a non-absorbent/non-absorptive surface >like plastic or glass > and allow it to dry in the sun for a couple hours...(do not microwave!)...you can dry it in a window sill >so the parts don't go flying...keep the pollen filled anthers in a cool,dry place until you are ready to use them...

Some people like to freeze the pollen for long term storage,but I personally prefer to work with unfrozen pollen...

Good Luck with your pollen gathering,storage,fertilization and spirals...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks Ron - will scamper out there with tweezers and ceramic coffee saucer right now.

This flower looks to me like it is completely unfurled. The first inner edge of the spiral emerges from the center and then, with the limb continuous and unbroken, makes the effect of a funnel within a funnel until it ends at the second edge of the spiral on the outside.. The form of funnel within funnel between the two ends of the spiral is distinct and could not be construed as a partially opened flower. Well, my heart feels like its going pitty-pat over this - growing MGs are not for the weak of heart.

I wonder where rh3708 (right #s?) got her Hatsu Arashi seed - same as me? The Fragrant Path? The owner has been doing some interesting things with his MG seed - wish we could involve him here - am growing some seed on for him, too, Ron.