Need help spending my money!

I want to purchase five new shade trees for our new house. But do not know what to get? We currently have three silver maples, two pin oaks, two elms, and a northern red oak. I would like to plant two of the new trees within 15 ft of our house, but am concerned about damage the roots might cause to the basement.

Are all maples roots system as bad as the silver maples with regards to the surface roots?

These are the ones that caught my eye

http://www.soonerplantfarm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=62

http://www.soonerplantfarm.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/plants.plantDetail/plant_id/79/index.htm

http://www.soonerplantfarm.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/plants.plantDetail/plant_id/48/index.htm

Can any one give me an opinion about these trees, or any facts that might help? or any other suggestions?

Acer rubrum is every bit the equal of silver maple when it comes to surface roots. English oaks in IL, I'm not too sure. The best person in the world to answer that question should be along soon. Kentucky Coffee is a great choice.

Probably the best way to keep from spending your money is to send it to me. Out of sight, out of mind, you know. I'll keep it safe for you.

Scott

Have you thought about any of the evergreen trees like pines, etc.? Pine needles make good mulch to go around shrubs.

This message was edited Jul 28, 2006 9:38 AM

I would go for some evergreens.

They are not on my top 25. Don't get me wrong, I love weeping blue cedar. I also like the tall columnar types. I just don't know much about tree, I could be persuaded If I know more. Any information would be helpful!

Your in KS which is a totally different world cilmate wise so I cann't be much help on what would be a good match. Cedars have a nice smell to them, you might like a leyland crypress. http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/71330/index.html
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/2359/index.html

Those two are plant and forget trees.

You could grow dawn redwood, some cultivars are hardy to 5a. You could also try Ponderosa pine.

This message was edited Jul 29, 2006 9:30 PM

If you stay 15 feet from your house there should be no great concern about foundation damage regardless of species. At least, not in you or your childrens' lifetimes. If you might lose sleep over that, install a simple root barrier a few inches from the wall before you plant.

I've seen Quercus robur do pretty well on the Great Plains in Iowa and Nebraska, but it has a huge and diverse natural range so you might be careful about the source. Since it is impractical to import one from across the Puddle, at least find one that was raised from seed collected from a healthy specimen in your climate zone.

I would go with the oak, the coffeetree, and something else. Find trees that, once established, will resist drought, because we don't know where our climate is headed right now but we know it's not good. And maintain diversity so you won't be stuck without shade if some new insect or disease comes along. Look around your county and see what's doing well there but is underplanted.

Guy S.

Here's some ideas:
Acer griseum - Paperbark Maple
Metasequoia glyptostroboides - Dawn Redwood
Fagus sylvatica 'Purple Fountain' - 'Purple Fountain' European Beech
Thuja occidentalis 'Hetz Wintergreen' - Arborvitae/Eastern White Cedar
Quercus ‘Crimson Spire’ (hybrid of Q. robur and Q. alba)
Pinus strobus 'Stowe Pillar'
Picea engelmannii ‘Bush’s Lace’
Picea glauca 'Pendula'
Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst'
Larix kaempferi
Larix kaempferi 'Diane'
Larix kaempferi 'Blue Rabbit'
Ginkgo biloba 'Fastigiata'/'Princeton Sentry'/'Fairmont'
Pinus resinosa
Pinus strobus

Dax

WOW! Thank you.

I have a few more questions if any one is up for it.

1) Question regarding diversity. If I have different kinds of oaks is that diversity, or do they really need to be differ altogether? I guess what I'm asking, if I lost my Pin Oaks to bugs or disease, will it be likely I'll loose my Northern Red Oak.

2) Roots on other maples?
http://www.soonerplantfarm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=74
http://www.soonerplantfarm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=57
The reason I keep maples in mind, is that they are really pushed by our county extension office, because of the drought factor.

3) Two years ago we have a heavy ice storm. Our two elms suffered a lot of damage. We had to have them cleaned up. In the landscaper’s words, "we topped them". I know this can't be good. When this is done to a tree, can you reasonability believe that the tree will live it's life - long and healthy or should new slower growing tree be planted to replace them?

You'll have been a great help; I know lack of knowledge can be annoying sometimes.

Sudden oak death, oak wilt, and gypsy moths attack all oaks regardless of what kind. I'm cautious about having too many oaks because I don't know if gypsy moths will eventually make it to my area. Oak wilt can be prevented by having enough space between trees so the roots don't have contact. Much still needs to be learned about S.O.D.

I would say yes to question #1 ghia girl = Genus and species both could be effected by a pest. i.e. - Genus (Oak) is Quercus; species (type of Oak) pallustris ( 'pallustris' meaning - Pin Oak).

#2: give the plant enough room between its' neighbors. The roots will extend to the dripline of the tree, so, if the dripline (width of tree) is projected to be "30 feet" - allow for at least 20 feet of space to 'each side' of it's neighbor. That's just a generic example.

#3:
The entire time I thought I should pass along a list of smaller garden trees such as Asian Maples - "dwarfer trees" - now that isn't the answer to your question, but still you might want to add some cultivars from Maple Species like:
Acer shirasawanum
Acer japonicum
Acer pseudosieboldianum (Not many cultivars - but seed grown are just as good)
Acer sieboldianum
Acer palmatum (The hardiest are 'Bloodgood' / 'Atropurpureum' / and thee very hardiest of the bunch is 'Emperor I'. 'Seiryu' is another good one. Any low growing cultivars/varieties - 'Skeeter's Broom' is hardy because it's a witches broom of 'Bloodgood') - plus I'd try others as well.

Regarding your Elms - well yep, you did what you had to do but you've weakened them. From now on consider them as a costly investment to keep them hazard free/disease free/, "pest free", etc.

Good luck,

Dax

This message was edited Jul 30, 2006 12:43 PM

Well, it's actually a little more complicated, and I'm not sure how far to go on this basic thread:

Oak wilt generally does not become systemic in any of the white oak group in your area (except escarpment live oaks, if you have them), so it should not be able to spread from them via root grafts. Pin oak and northern red oak both are in the red oak group, and thus highly susceptible to OW systemic infection -- that is, if you even have oak wilt in Wichita -- ?

Oak wilt moves into new areas via small beetles that feed on sap, and it does so rather inefficiently. But once it arrives, it will spread through all of your red oaks via root grafts. Oaks don't root graft between taxonomic sections (red/white), but will graft between species within a section. And root growth FAR exceeds the crown spread, so the dripline should not be considered a safety zone.

English oak is a white oak and will not be subject to many of the same pests as your red oaks. But it will be subject to some of them (like Gypsy moths, if you have them there -- ?). English oak should not be bothered by gouty galls or bacterial leaf scorch, both of which can be fatal on pin oaks, but it may be subject to mildew and will yield no autumn color. Sudden oak death has been lethal on red oaks in California too, but not white, and you may never see that in Wichita either.

Regarding your elms, it's too late now to change what you've done. If this ever happens to you again, hire a qualified (certified) arborist, not some ignorant schmuck who tops trees. But elms are tough and, depending upon the species, they might come out of it OK with some follow-up pruning by someone who knows what to do. However, if they're Siberian elms, use this opportunity to replace them.

What year is your yellow Ghia?

Guy S.

Guy - We were both born in 1973! I have lusted after that car, the exact car for fifteen years. I got her in 2003 with 15k miles. The lady that sold it to me, "just wanted to sell it to someone that would love it the same way she did” So she picked me. Thank you for asking.

Thanks again with the trees informaiton.

Dax, I'm not done researching your list. When I done I know I'll have more questions.

interesting! I once dated a girl with a yellow Ghia, I believe that same year. (But I couldn't fit in it!)

The original introductions of Metasequoia and I were "born" in the same year, 1947. Maybe that's why I lust after trees . . .

Guy S.

I think just about all 3 trees that caught your eye would do well for you. The Red Maple does have shallow agressive roots, just like Silver Maple, but in your area it will be a smaller growing tree than Silver Maple. There are many large Quercus robur growing in Wichita as well as out in Western Kansas which is even hotter and drier than Wichita gets. So, I would expect it should do well for you. You might also consider Bur Oak(Q. macrocarpa), Chinquapin Oak (Q. muehlenbergii) or possibly Shumard Oak(Q. shumardii), all of which do well in Wichita. There are also some nice Kentucky Coffee Trees growing in Wichita. You might also consider Chinese Pistacio(Pistachia chinensis) which does well in Wichita and has great fall colors, but doesn't grow as large as most of the other suggested trees. Western Soapberry (Sapindus saponaria var. drummondii) is native in the Wichita area and is way underplanted. It's also somewhat smaller than most of the other trees suggested, but is very tough and has nice yellow fall colors. Another Wichita area native that is also underplanted is Little walnut (Juglans microcarpa). It too is a smaller growing shade tree, but it has nice ferny looking foliage which is disease free and stays nice throughout the growing season, unlike Black Walnut(J. nigra). It also has nice yellow fall color and it's nuts are quite small and much less messy than Black Walnut. A Gingko Tree (Gingko biloba) would also be a good choice. Very unique leaves which turn a very nice yellow in the fall after which the leaves all fall in 1 or 2 days. There are many nice ones growing in Wichita also. If you wanted a broad leafed evergreen tree with large white fragrant flowers, then you could plant a Southern Magnolia(Magnolia grandiflora). There are many throughout Wichita, but some nice larger specimens along Eastern and Central Kellogg Avenue in some of the older ritzy neighborhoods. Several cultivars are commonly sold in Wichita at many different nurseries also. If you really want a mini project, you could go downtown to the Centruy II Convention Center and collect some acorns from the Turkish Oaks(Quercus cerris) planted all around the immediate perimeter of the Convention Center(in little islands amongst the sidewalks) in mid to late September and plant them either in pots or in the ground where you wanted a tree. These are relatively fast growing Oaks and seem to be very disease resistant and have grown well in Wichita for more than 20 years now.

If you really want a Maple, you could try and find some 'Caddo' Maples (Acer barbatum var. caddo or Acer saccharum var. caddo) These Maples are perfectly adapted to most of Kansas and especially do well in Wichita. They have outstanding red-orange fall colors and their roots will be somewhat less shallow and aggressive than the other Maples mentioned. Two cultivars were actually selected right in Wichita at the former USDA station(now a K-State horticulture research station) off of 95th street(just South of Wichita proper)These 2 are 'Autumn Splendor' and 'John Pair' and I've seen both for sale in Wichita before, but they still aren't too common. I know of a few tree farms in Oklahoma that grow one or both, so I think you should be able to find some locally. Another smaller growing Maple that seems to be doing very well in most of Kansas is Shantung Maple (Acer truncatum). It does very well in the hot dry summers of Wichita and has very nice fall colors also. This Maple has been becoming more popular with nurseries so it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Also, SOD(Sudden Oak Death) has only been documented on the West Coast and then mostly, if not completely, in an area of Northern California. So, I wouldn't worry too much about that in Wichita, at least it appears this disease isn't spreading very well. Oak wilt has been found in very small isolated parts of Eastern KS, but like Guy said, it appears not to spread very well and mostly after the small group of root grafted Oaks die, no other trees in the area are affected. So, it's very rare and I personally have never seen any Oaks in KS with Oak Wilt. Gypsy Moths have never made it to anywhere in Kansas, along with Japanese Beetles. I'm very skeptical if Gypsy Moths ever will, but I don't know about the Japanese Beetles, so again I wouldn't worry too much about those. If either one does ever make it to Wichita, it will be many years from now I think.

Good luck!

I also forgot to make a brief comment on cold hardiness zones. Seeing that you are in Wichita, I doubt very much that your zone is zone 5. Any place where you see Desert Willows(Chilopsis linearis), some arboreal yuccas(Yucca sps.), lots of Southern Magnolias(Magnolia grandiflora), and such sure isn't zone 5. My bet is anywhere in town is zone 7a, while some of the outlying suburbs and rural areas are zone 6. Albeit a very windy(does the wind ever stop blowing in Wichita? he he) zone 6. I know 2 or 3 record lows fall into the zone 5 range, but the norms definitely don't.

You might could try Acer barbatum, a smaller version of the sugar maple. It has been drought tolerant for me and has great fall color.

Acer micranthum does well here:)

Dax (born in 73 also but drove a 73 Porsche 911 [convertible] as the first car)

Ghia -

If you need help locating a photo/information, just let me know -

Dax

Okay, I'm not confirmed on the order, but I think this is my shopping list

Ginkgo biloba
Quercus robur - English oak
Pistacia Chinese - Chinese Pistache Tree
Gymnocladus dioicus - Kentucky Coffeetree
Quercus bicolor - Swamp White Oak
Sapindus drummondii - Western Soapberry
Cercis canadensis - Lavender Twist Redbud

Plan on pruning into small trees:
Lagerstroemia indica - RASPBERRY SUNDAE
Lagerstroemia indica - RED ROCKET


Do you have any of these trees? What do you hate about them? and like?

Dax - as your first car? Sound a little stoiled to me! got pictures?

ghia_girl. You listed a good group of trees. I have K.Coffee tree, it is three years now and growing nicely in my woodland garden area.

One tree that no one has mentioned is one of my favorites. Silver Linden, Tilia tomentosa, Has very fragrant blooms the month of July. Mine is 12 years now and quite large.

Donna

Chinese Pistache has been reported to be invasive in some states, I think Texas is one of them. However with your shorter growing season it may not be a problem. They fell out of being planted here just when they were starting to get popular.

Make sure you research the cultivars of the crape myrtles and look for sooty mold resistance. Red Rocket is new and should be good, but I'm not familiar with raspberry sundae. There are so many different cultivars, some are good and some are not so good.