Moving a young Magnolia

We live in Zone 9 in Northern California and planted a Magnolia liliiflora ‘Lil Ann about 4 months ago. It's a multi-trunk and about 5 foot tall. Now I would like to move it about 10 feet away. It's doing quite well considering the triple digit temperatures we've been having. It has a lot of new growth and has grown about 2 feet in height. I could wait a few months until fall which I feel would be safer to do so. We also have a Magnolia soulangeana ‘Alexandria that is burning up in the same part of the garden. It's leaves look cooked although it is getting some new growth at the base. They both get about the same amount of water and sun a day.

How well does Magnolia liliiflora ‘Lil Ann take to being transplanted again?

I have the 'Jane' magnolia and held it in a container last year way past when I should have. They must be pretty hardy souls because it came back this year and bloomed beautifully. If I were moving it, I'd root prune it lightly to get it ready, keep it watered and then do it when its dormant. I don't think there's much else to it. It hasn't been in place long enough to really send out a lot of roots. You can also use a root stimulator on it when you transplant to help it get over the shock of being disturbed again.

I have used the Greenlight root stimulator many times, I can't say it has helped but it hasn't hurt either.

"Can't say it helped, but it hasn't hurt either," is exactly the conclusion of a couple of scientific tests regarding root stimulators that I have read. Usually, these things consist mainly of Vitamin B. Tests on Vitamin B I have seen reach the same conclusion.

Scott

Being fickle, I transplant quite a bit. Most plants get moved 1-4 times in my garden before I leave them be. A local nursery gave me a bottle (lots of P fertilizer and vitamin B) to try. I'm not convinced. Plus, we have an overdose of P in our soil anyhow. The last study I read said to never use fertilizers when planting trees/shrubs, especially not ones with any N in them when transplanting (for obvious reasons). "Voo-Doo."

I'd like to ask about those name-series deciduous Mag hybrids. You would not beleive the quantitiy of stories and times I have seen 'Jane,' 'Randy,' or someone failing miserably (locally in Western CO). Fault of the homeowners?: Soulangeana and Stellata are seen about town doing well. The only pulled-out-of-the-baby-name-book-cultivar one I have heard of doing well is 'Betty.'
Has anyone else had experiences with these cultivars or noticed any trends?
Kenton

I don't know if the root stimulator helps - or can be proved scientifically but sort of like doing an H202 feeding, I can say that anecdotally some plants seem to perk up and put out more leaves while in containers. I don't bother when they are planted out. Not all perennials respond though. Maybe its been better for perennials than woody plants - I can't say because I don't plant enough new woodies to compare. I bought a 50 flat of year old hellebores from Sunshine Gardens and he sent along a bottle of concentrated B-1 to help the roots. I would assume he knows what he's doing since he's one of the biggest US hellebore breeders. I use it for smaller plants that don't have big root systems yet.

On the other hand there was an article last May in The Journal of Arboriculture about using a dilute solution of sugar on birches to assist in establishment and I succeeded in killing a Magnolia Butterflies with it. But I blame that on myself for overdosing. It apparently doesn't take much.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4107/is_200503/ai_n12412506

..." Many trees suffer from transplant shock after being dug from the nursery and put into containers to be sold at the garden center. Often less than 5 percent of the original roots survive the move. The shoots can’t get enough water from the diminished root system and consequently a mortality rate of 30 to 50 percent is common the first year after transplanting.
In order to accelerate new root growth on transplanted trees (and hopefully reduce mortality), researchers at the Bartlett Tree Research Laboratory in England have tried adding sugar water to the tree root system. In trees that have a low survival rate, such as birch, watering with a sugar-water solution increased root growth and survival rates.
Researchers found the best root growth rates were achieved when they applied 10 ounces of sucrose (table sugar) per gallon of water and drenched the newly transplanted trees at a rate of 0.4 gallons per tree each week for 4 weeks, starting two weeks after bud break. The trees in the study were less than 2 inches in diameter. Further research is planned to see if sugar water also will increase survival rates of larger diameter trees as well.
For more information on this research go to: Journal of Arboriculture.

On the magnolias - for whatever its worth, I bought a Jane on sale last year that had been in container for 2 years, and then didn't plant it till the middle of summer. It's in a moderately exposed location at the top of a bluff. I used the killer sugar solution on it, B1 root stim and it didn't miss a beat - bloomed beautifully this spring and put on about 6" of growth all around. But we didn't have a harsh winter last year and I bet that is a critical issue. You have dry cold winter in CO - maybe thats the difference. Ours are almost always damp with a lot of freeze and thaw. It makes sense to me that magnolia wouldn't like a dessicating cold.

On the sugar solution - I used it on a pair of 15 ft River Birches that were delivered last spring last year and they look pretty happy.

Two great topics: Candy, Little Girls?

JamesCo, et al:

I have planted and grown all of the Little Girl series of magnolias (Ann, Betty, Jane, Judy, Pinkie, Randy, Ricki, and Susan). They all perform about the same here in central KY as big broad spreading late spring flowering multistemmed bushes, with sporadic reblooming midsummer to fall (July-Sept). They all get some mildew in the summer. What can vary is quality of plant purchased. Container grown magnolias will invariably have screwed up roots; I'd be aware of that circumstance by removing all container media and performing reconstructive surgery before planting. Field grown B&B may fare much better, especially if the soil grown in originally matches up fairly well with the soil planted into.

Magnolia x soulangiana, from parents M. (denudata x liliiflora), is a quite similar plant but attains much larger size. Magnolia stellata is one of the parents (along with M. liliiflora) of the Little Girl series. I would expect to have somewhat similar results from each of these groups in each locale they are grown. Maybe kman, magnoliaphile extraordinaire, will weigh in with more evaluative commentary on these choices for more arid climates.

Magnolias all generally have big broader leaves, fat fleshy roots, and are gross feeders. Exposure to drying winds (summer or winter) will have consequences if there is neglect of adequate moisture to keep up with evapotranspiration.

As far as "feeding" transplanted plants with N or other nutrition: you'd never have a new plant from a container grower without it. The admonition is against high N concentrations. Use a low/mid N level slow release granular fertilizer (or an occasional low N drench with liquid fertilizer) and see if that doesn't aid in establishment.

alyrics, et al:

Please don't consider this a personal affront. I am commenting quite generally on the topic at hand, because it is a recurring theme. I wish I had access to the entire J of A article on the sugar shack solution. I am having a bit of a chuckle right now. Jerry Baker is beaming.

I might believe that addition of sugar water advances positive behaviors on the part of soil flora/fauna/mycorrhizal activity, but I don't think plants take up complex molecules as big as sugars (though they do take up the component parts and make their own). Someone more chemistry or biology-oriented might clarify/correct this position. Therefore, starting with normal healthy soil is a logical choice and one should not have to hope that the mortality of a tree is balanced on whether you've got the right sweetness in your tea.

Nothing was said in the abstract about the condition/quality of the plants that suffer 30-50% mortality. Every plant that has its roots cut when being moved suffers some transplant shock. The duration of the shock is relative to:

•the amount of roots left behind
•the quality/quantity of roots conserved
•the quality/quantity of care given after re-planting
•the quality of conditions in which the plant finds itself anew

There are probably some things that can be thrown in the hole with the new plant which are beneficial (usually water conserving in nature, or aeration-advancing), but somehow new trees grow all the time in this world without Domino (or some other great sugar producer) having a hand in it.

Two other items left out of the abstract are : the soil condition provided and method of planting. Plant into compacted and poorly aerated soils, or improperly plant too deeply, and that is a prescription for death (especially if you start with decent root systems). Start with poor root systems, and you can do everything else right and still "mysteriously" lose the plant, blaming it on a sugar overdose. Would it 'twer that easy! We'd be able to wipe out invasives in a most non-toxic manner.

I have (here and elsewhere) been a serious proponent of learning to autopsy your confounding losses when plants die. When you dig the deceased sucker out, take a look at what is/was below ground. For those comments above about plants from containers, some likely culprits in the death department are massively corkscrewed roots hidden within the container media matrix, and then compounded by too deep planting. For B&B (field grown with a transplanted ball of soil), wash the soil off and see how many roots actually came with the plant originally, and their arrangement. Also observe where the root/trunk interface is/was respective to your planting depth. You may be amazed.

And take lots of pictures and post them here. If enough interested folks do so, this could even merit its own forum. I'm going to have to hunt up some of the fun photos I've compiled at work, and maybe even go to the lengths of scanning parts of the old slide collection to demonstrate these points. If enough consumers understand this very common problem, it may begin to force positive changes in production techniques by growers and sellers so that it diminishes as a concern. Now, there's some wishful thinking.

I'm never against using/learning new techniques to advance more success in growing plants; success breeds more of the positive behavior. I'm NOT for diversions of attention from resolving what the real recurring problems are, though, with placebos.

Here in SC you can't move a Magnolia, if it was grown in a contianer you can plant that but once it's been growing in the ground it's there for good. Good luck but it just can't be done around here. Many different kinds of magnolias so my blanket statement might not be 100%

I have moved mine and so far so good - 6 weeks in the new spot and new leaves are on the way.

I'm not sure if I can live up to the label VV has given me, but here's my 2¢ worth! I've planted and observed Saucer Magnolia, Star Magnolia, and the most of the "Little Girl" hybrids in arid California. They all seem to do quite well on drip irrigation in areas with humidities running between 5-20% most of the time. So, I would say they don't mind the arid conditions, as long as they are kept well watered! In my experience the "Little Girl" (they were named after wives and daughters of staff at the National Arboretum where they were developed btw) hybrids are just as tough and adaptable as Saucer and Star Magnolias. Also, most all Magnolias prefer slightly acidic soil, but can grow in neutral to slightly alkaline soils if happy otherwise.

Jerry Baker? Isn't that the guy who is always drinking 1/2 a beer, then pouring the other 1/2 in a blender, then adding dish washing detergent, coke, maybe sugar and some other stuff and to top it all off he whips out a jug of his own urine(the only other guy I've seen do that is Damon Wayans when performing as that homeless guy on "In Living Color" back in the early 90's, oh but he usually had a pickle in the jar too he he) to add to the mix? Then he sprays/pours this mix on everything in sight? he he I always imagine him getting drunk on all that beer, and ending a show with him in the background drunk as a skunk urinating on his freshly planted trees and spilling beer on them too. LOL

OK, I have a vivid imagination! he he

I said "...sweetness in your tea." Tea!

Though that could sprout a cottage industry amongst the organic gardeners.....kind of like home delivery by the milkman, except in reverse.

Yo yo playazzzz!

Lots of Magnolia nuts out there, that is true.

I think the 55 acres I just looked at might have room for some of these:) - I certainly know the lake will have Taxodium and others planted in the water, that I concluded this morning. Man I hope we get this property.

Lata Fools.

Dax

Go get'em, Dax.

Here is 'Elizabeth' at the Missouri Botanical.

VV -
No affront taken. I am merely the hand of the reporter. I am always interested in trying things so I did. Its my research background, I can't help myself. Do you know how many rice plants I killed at Miami U in the Botanical Genetics Dept? A paddy wack full. I was really looking forward to the Magnolia Butterflies before I tapped it - but you are right about one thing, I did a post on it and the roots were not in good shape so it was probably stressed already and I gave it an OD. Hmm I wonder if organic sugar would have worked better? Anyway, it didn't hurt the other M. Jane nor the 2 River Birches.

The field conditions you commented on aren't universally controlled by growers. I took it that they were trying to find some gross methods to improve viability for a market product. If it works it would be great - cheap and easy to apply.

Have you tried Messenger? Interesting product. I wish I'd held back on some plants so I'd have controls.