I want to grow a small forest...

In case you don't know me, I like to bash my head against brick walls. I married a Marine and I am also trying to turn a piece of high desert sand into just about anything but high desert sand. So, obviously, the stuttering start of a Cottage Garden went poof when the temps hit 103 and the humidity hit 9. The tomatoes are growing like weeds but no one is setting fruit. But our 3 sweet gums (sorry, I didn't know! I didn't know!) seem to be taking the desert in stride - they've made it to their 1st anaversary and are thriving - but no, I don't want a small sweet gum forest. What I want is a pine forest. (So, yes, being over 40, I realize that what I really want is a pine forest for 2 generations down the road...) 15 four ft tall black austrian pines later, our nearly 5 acres of sand looks like nearly 5 acres of sand with 15 puny trees on it. Next spring they will have drip irrigation and I'll no longer be watering with a 100 ft hose and/or an ATV with a 15 gal water tank. My DH snuck in 3 blue spruces that look out of place, but are cute. My question is, what other kinds of pines might survive out here? And what type of companions might I plant with them that like 100 degree summers and 8 degree winters? The fall planting season is around the corner, and I've been saving up my over time. I want to hit the nursery well armed with a ATM card in the next few months.

KMom-
I have no suggestions-sorry I am still a very novice gardener. But I just had to reply because I was so happy to see this message! I too enjoy banging my head against the wall. I dream of a shady woodland type of garden overflowing with hostas and other shade loving flowers. But as I ask advise at the local nurseries, I am constantly advised to go Xeric. Apparently a few hours of sun in Colorado usually equals full sun to most plants and the only thing possibly not getting enough sun in my yard is the compost bin! Now don't get me wrong, I have seen some beautiful Xeric gardens, but that is not MY dream. Just wanted to let you know that you have gardening buddy in CO fighting the good fight with you.
KD

Please excuse me while I compose myself and fight the envy. That sounds like pure heaven. Would you like some of our humidity?

OK, the Austrian pines might not be all that long lived. If you have pinewood nematode out there you'd better come up with some replacement trees. Look in the forests nearest to you at similar elevations for a clue as to what you might plant. Not knowing your exact location or elevation or habitat type I'm thinking ponderosa pines or one of their close relatives, or maybe bristlecone pines (yeah, I know, they are SOOOO slow) or lodgepoles, but check around to see what else is happy nearby. Other (non-pine) conifers might work too.

Guy S.

I live in Montana and we have the same low humidity in July Aug and Sept. We grow lots of Ponderosa pines and they after a couple of years of babying will handle the droughts pretty well. Though we have clay and rock not sand. I know in Michigan in the sand all pines did well. but they had moisture from the air. I have planted bristle cone pine and it likes the dry but it only grows 3 " a year. So 10 gererations before shade. I have planted white pines and they are 3 yrs in the ground and are beginning to take off. They will be good shade in 8 to 10 years. The hearties of Michigan were the plain scotch pine and not being a beautiful tree grew quite well in very poor soil. You might look into Gamble Oak. I know they like to grow in dry and mine are doing well and growing very fast. I have started a group of Swedish Aspen on a dry exposed hill I just bought that needs shade and expect them to do well there.

Bananas~You just bought a hill? What are attributes of Swedish Aspen?

The Ponderosa Pine is native into BC to California and tolerates quite a bit of heat and drought. Take a look at this site and see if you could get bareroot bundles for cheap: http://www.lawyernursery.com/
Keep the planting diverse incase something happens to 1 species. You may also want to look at Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca, the interior form of Douglas Fir. Amending the soil while planting makes a significant difference. Get a dumptruck of organic compost to work with.
My 2 cents.

We are 60 miles E of Reno, NV, 4300 ft elevation, in an ancient lake bed near the current Lake Lahontan (sp?). We are surrounded by hills about 15-25 miles all around us in a ciricle. We are known as The High Desert and part of the Great Basin. Days in the 100's right now, but nights cooling down to the low 70's and an occational high 60's. We get about 7-12 inches of percipitaion a year. Yesterday was a tipical thunderstorm - all the hills around us got about 1/4" rain, but we just got the thunder and lightning. It snowed 4 times last winter, even though the temps stayed in the low 20's with ocational forays into the single digits. Sand, sage, tumbleweed and jack rabbits grow well out here. Everything else needs supplemental water. Our proximity to the lake means that our water table is pretty high - 180 -200 ft. Some areas have caliche about 5 ft down. We have a tracktor with a big auger for tree planting (smaller auger for post hole digging).

Black Austrian Pines are planted around in this area - some are over 20 ft tall, but mostly people plant Cottonwoods and Desert Willow - you know, things that are native to the area that have a chance of growing. Anywhere that a property has been abandoned with any type of trees on it and the irrigation stops, the trees pretty much die. This place wasn't meant for trees ...therefore, I want a forest :-)

I am becoming friends with the "cow people" down the road from us. They raise a few head of cattle to put in their fridge each year - and I get the cow pies. People burn the tumbleweed here, but I am composting them - but, like everything else, I am discovering you have to water the compost, too! Well, it's a good use for bath water - better than putting it down the septic.

I don't think we have nematodes in the sand. I don't think there is anything organic in the sand until you put some in there. But the diversity thing does make lots of sense. I know the diversity on our lot will increase - DH has a tendency to impulse buy at HD and our favorite tree nursery (they are in Reno; they tell us trees don't grow where we are :-) This fall we are going to delve into "understory plantings" - dogwoods? I've seen ONE out in this area, and it looks like it's thriving, and I'm sure it's sucking down a bunch of water.

KD, keep fighting the good fight! Drip irrigation and shade cloth are thy friends! Lots of mulch. Oh, did I mention we get 50 MPH wind gusts and sand storms in the summer? Makes for some awesome sunsets... envision the sun sinking over the westerly hills, pine needles glowing with the back lighting. Hmmmm, if I get down at ground level to take a picture, and shoot upwards into the setting sun background, the trees might even look - tall!

DH bought me a water tank for my ATV, so now I can irrigate out in the back four. But I'm not sure I want to commit to trees off of the water lines, yet... but I bet an oak out there would be a cool sight after the flatness of everything else around... well, in about 100 years, anyway!

Lots of ponderosa growing on the Sierra Nevada 45 minutes away to the south, but haven't seen any for sale around here...hmmm, the hunt is on...

Thanks much, everyone!

Pinyon Pine, Ponderosa Pine, Eldarica Pine, Japanese Black Pine. Those should all do well in hot dry climates. The japanese black pine seems to be the least hardy of them.

Thanks- I have lots of mulch and am working on the drip irrigation but hadn't thought of shade cloth. You are my hero!
:) KD

Lawyer nursery is near my home and they have an open house once each year. I love their plants cause they are tested in the Montana environs. Not those weak Oregon grown genetics from the big box stores.
Yeah PG I'm talking about my 8 acre horse/view property I plan on selling to retire on. It is a glacial drummond (I think that is the name) which is a mount of rocks and glacial sediment. I have water etc up at the top and want to cover it with trees that can survive on clay. My Swedish aspen thrive in poor draining clay. Also they pop up many other plants to make the forest I need. Then It will be more valuable for the million dollar home for someone else to put at the top of the hill.

s~thanks for the info, that's one skinny tree! But since it survives and thrives in clay, I'll have to put it on my list.

kmom~Have you considered the Joshua tree? My buddy Melissa (tombaak here at DG) lives in that area, she might have some ideas for you. She started 4 years ago with one tree, and now has 75+ thriving trees on her property (1-1/2 acres), I'd say that's a forest!

Kmom, one precaution -- IMHO some of the recommendations above might not be taking your Zone 7 high desert winters into consideration.

Therer is a good reason you don't have native trees there --

But as long as you know you'll have an uphill battle and must maintain them on life support, go for it! It's no worse than someone like me growing containerized tropical oaks here in zone 5 and moving them into greenhouses every winter.

Guy S.

You might look for Alligator Bark Juniper (Juniperus deppeana), Oneseed Juniper(Juniperus monosperma), Utah Juniper (Juniperus osteosperma), Rocky Mountain Juniper(Juniperus scopulorum) or even Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana). Most of these Junipers are tough as nails and grow in areas not too dissimilar to yours. You might also try some of the SW Oaks, like Arizona Oak (Quercus arizonica), Silverleaf Oak (Quercus hypoleucoides), Mohr Oak (Q. mohriana), Vasey Oak (Q. vaseyana), Plateau Live Oak (Q. fusiformis), or maybe even Chinquapin Oak (Q. muehlenbergii) or Bur Oak(Q. macrocarpa) or perhaps Oregan White Oak (Q. garryana). While Gambel Oak can take dry situations, it usualy doesn't like alot of heat, but with drip irrigation it can do well. The main problem with most of these is finding them for sale somewhere. I know these aren't Pines, but they would help you with some diversity.

Guy S ... green house is on the list! My bathroom with a huge window makes a passing fair green house, but it's getting crowded in there. My girlfriend got a lovely diamon ring for her BDay one year - I told DH don't you ever dare! until we have a green house and thousands of trees and, and... ... scary thing is, the greenhouse I want probably costs more than her ring! :-P

Kman_blue, did see a lot of different junipers in AZ in a similar elevation and environs. We have some low growing junipers and the scropions seem to like them a lot. I wonder if the scorpions like their taller growing relatives? We have 3 cedars and the scropions don't seem to hang out in them. They also seem to stay out of the other trees, including the pines. I wonder if it is because the junipers are low to the ground? Scorpions don't bother me as long as they stay outside. (One fat, happy tarantula inside is enough for indoor insects for me)

KD, I figure, over the course of the next few years, the acre we are trying to en-forest and the acre around the house will be completely covered in mulch (and trees? creating a little micro climate?)... the back nearly 3 acres we will let Mother Nature continue to seed with her hardy sages, tumbleweed, and occational desert marigold (I may throw a hardy lavender or two out there). I like a good fight, but I don't think I'm up to taking over more than a few acres. After all, She DOES have time and experience and plain old power on her side :-)

Ordered the lawyer nursery catalog today...

Stormed yesterday evening, but around here you can't assume that means you don't need to water. 4 inches down and it's dry, dry, dry still. But it did cool things off, provide some spectacular lightning and clear the dust out of the air.

Thanks for the info and encouragement, everyone. Some times I looke at my little 3 and 4 ft trees planted 15 to 20 to 30 ft appart and can't imagine a forest. Then again, on planting days, I can almost hear the pine needles rustling through an army of trees. Hostas, KD, one day we'll have shade somewhere, and I'll start to research hostas!

You know I might move up to Montana and you can buy a forest much cheaper and easier than where you are. Just a thought.

You can eat the Pinyon / Pinion / Pignon / Pin~on / Pine nuts.

LOL, Montana actually IS on the radar of possible long term settling locations... I'm just alergic to snow, and the 4 or 5 " of snow we get a year here is just right... but after the need to make daily forays into the city for my job, I might not mind being snowed in :-) It'd be 10 years or so before I think I can give up my job (in theory, I could, now, but then, how would I keep Home Depot, Lowes and WalMart in business, not to mention amazon.com... it's bad to have expensive addictions...) And by then, my little people & New Holland made forest might be too much for me to leave (do you think the NEW owners would baby them until they were 50 years old? I don't know....) ... But at least the forest side of the property is doing much better than the English Cottage Garden! Next year, there is always next year!

UUallace, I imagine the chipmonks, ground squirrels and birds would get to the pine nuts before any humans, but that wouldn't be a bad thing, either :-)

I've seen old hay used as a mulch which helps retain moisture on waterings and protects the small trees or trunks of smallish trees. It works well. I still think the trick to success is significantly amending the soil when you plant. The other thought is if you get in contact with the extension office and find out the contact info for forestry nurseries. Sometimes they have rejects, extras or sell directly to the public.

After spending the weekend in the yard(thankfully not an acreage!) every muscle in my body aches and I am wonderfully happy. My husband asks me "Where do you think we will retire?" Since that is still a few years into to the future, I figure about the time I get that wonderful shade I am working toward, he will be ready to move on! So I will just add that to the "good fight". Shade, Hostas and never leaving once I get them!
Still :) KD

You think about putting in a well? 200 ft with a pump wouldn't be to much money. Think you can make enough solar power to run a small pump, not sure about the solar but that would keep it cheap to run. Solar panels are expensive though. If you could do that you need some sort of cheap drip system because sprinklers would probably just blow water in the air never to be seen again. LOL. I might put some thought into this idea if I have the time. How big an area we talking about?

Oh looks like about 2 acres? Deep mulch and a full drip system is possible and wil work. What I'm getting at with the well is you can almost pump all day long with out racking up a huge electric bill.

Here's a start. http://www.affordable-solar.com/shurflo.9300.submersible.pump.htm
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This message was edited Jul 25, 2006 3:41 PM

Greetings ~ Yes, have wonderful well, good water table (though slightly alkalai). It's running on electric on the grid right now, but are looking for alternative methods for backup. We'll eventually put in a diesel generator for extended grid outages, but probably not for day-to-day ops. Solar sounds real good since even in winter our days are very clear and intensly sunny. We have the beginnings of drip everywhere and everything that I want to have a chance of living has mulch up to about 2 inches away from the trunk (wind likes to blow the mulch about a bit, so I periodically have to dig the trunks out, but since it's pretty low humidity, it doesn't appear to be hurting anything).

So far, yes, only willing to do battle with Mother Nature on two out of nearly 5 acres. :-)

They aren't pine trees, but they do make shade and leaves for organic matter. Have you ever considered Sycamore Trees? Nanjing, China which is referred to as a "furnace city" is much cooled by Sycamore ( Plane) trees. These trees produce quantities of leaves which you could compost with cow pies to improve your soil. Sycamores aren't native to Nevada that I am aware of but they make nice shade and tolerate high temperature. They will need water. Just a thought. I also thought the Ponderosa Pine was a good suggestion. They are wonderful trees that grow, not real fast, but fairly fast. You would have to buy them in containers or from a nursery. Digging your own Ponderosas usually results in tree death. Around here, they come up from seed, but that would really be slow.
Pinon pines are one of my all time favorite trees between the pine nuts and the perfumed fragrance of the wood when it burns. Unfortunately, They grow very, very slowly and never get very tall.
I have seen blue spruces flourishing in some very unlikely places. Your husband may have the right idea.
Best of luck growing a forest in the desert. It can work but you will need an awful lot of cow pies and any other organic matter you can lay your shovel on.

Another thought. Are you aware that pine borers plague pine trees in warm climates and are a problem in the South and now in the Rockies. The best way to protect against them is to water them, and not plant them to close together, but that isn't fool proof. Ponderosa pine and pinon pine are suceptible. Are you sure you want a pine forest?