H. aff. fraterna- esp. Ms. Kitty

Speaking of H. aff. Fraterna.
I have a large pot containing two large plants. One of the plants is super healthy (as evidenced by its budding peduncle), but the other plant is starting to look faded and leathery. They are watered the same, but the only difference that I can think of is that the one looking sickly has a section that has rooted just slightly under the soil (it was quite a bit beneath the soil until I repotted the two plants together). Now it is just barely under the top of the soil, thus that little section probably gets less water. If a section of a plant roots, does the rest of the plant start relying on the roots of the section that rooted for its moisture and nutrients? (did this make any sense at all?)
I cannot think of any other reason why this plant is looking so "sickly."
Thanks
Ann

This message was edited Jun 13, 2006 8:51 PM

Well done, Ann. I kind of wish H. fraterna had been given a less confusing name, since there had allready been a different incorrectly named fraterna, but there it is.
Your aff. fraterna does look a bit dehydrated. I've gotten this with several hoyas after repotting, especially when they are really young (rooted cuttings). I don't know if it is rot or if the roots just aren't capable of taking up enough water after being disturbed, but I've lost several plants in similar situations.

Mark, I think I will try and keep that substrate a little more moist and perhaps add some superthrive to the water - I really would hate to lose that plant!! Meanwhile, the other plant is going gangbusters. Here is an update of the fattening buds.

Ann, I am so excited to see these open. I appriciate you keeping us updated on the progress. -joanne

Here is another update on aff. Fraterna. Animal House looks like he might just bloom!
Here is a bad picture of the buds from below

And, here is a side shot of the umbel

Ann...can you get more of the stem of the sick one in the soil?

Sorry Mairzee_dotes. You didn't see that blurb about H. fraterna being hard to bloom in "The World Of Hoyas". I think Dale said the H. meliflua ssp. meliflua was a much better bloomer than the H. meliflua ssp. fraterna. The confusion lies in people mixing the two up. The one Carol calls H. affinis fraterna, the one pictured on these pages with the beautiful bud clusters is the true H. fraterna as named by Karl Blume in the 1800's, it was collected in Java, Indonesia. The confusion crept in sometime also in the 1800's when a plant that was discovered in The Philippine's appeared in the pages of one of the Botanical Garden magazines (a gorgeous rendition by an artist in full color). The only thing that was wrong, was that it was the wrong plant, and so it stood for over 150 years with everyone believing that the plant we now know as H. meliflua ssp. fraterna was H. fraterna. The botanists have known for 100 years or more that the description given by Blume on his original type sheet did not match the description of the Philippine plant we were calling H. fraterna but we had nothing to compare it with. Sometime in the 1990's, Ted Green collected the true H. fraterna on one of his collecting trips to Java and the mystery was solved. Now we had a problem of trying to find out what the "banana leaved" thing that we had been calling H. fraterna was. It was determined that it was a very close match to H. meliflua and almost certainly a sub-species (or variety) of that species. Since Ted was the collector of the true H. fraterna, the ball landed in his lap to give the banana leaf a name. He couldn't change the name of H. fraterna as Blume had described it . That name is set in stone. Since the banana leaf had been called fraterna for so long by so many people Ted was afraid they would never adjust to calling it anything else, so he just left the name intact but put the H. meliflua as the species name and made fraterna the sub-species. Long winded reply, and no I don't find it hard to bloom. I have dozens of pictures of it in full bloom. Give it lots and lots of light (no direct sun) lots of humidity, then stand back and watch it bloom. I'll see if I can dig out some pictures to post.
Ann Wayman

Carol, no I can't but I have started to try lightly water that area much more frequently - I am hoping if I keep that area of soil moist in what may become a vain attempt to save it. I can't pull it out of the pot to see what is going on with the roots because the other plant is happily getting ready to bloom.

It hasn't gotten any worse (but it hasn't gotten any better either), so I am going to try and get a cutting just in case.

Ann

Well, I did it. I just took the weed-whacker to my ailing aff. Fraterna (my knees are still shaking). So I now have three good size cuttings that will hopefully root, and I still have one leafy section on the plant with the root ball and one leafy section connected to the vine that had rooted. If nothing else, by the time the healthy plant finishes its blooming, the cuttings will have large enough roots to replant in the same pot. By the way, I did strategic cutting. I looked for areas that had nubby aerial roots and made sure that is what went into my glass of water.
Boohooo, I have a bald trellis.
Ann

You are a brave soul, Ann. Sometimes that is what we have to do though to save the plant at all. I too have had this happen where the leaves start getting leathery looking and wrinkled. Then when you start cutting up the stem, you see WHY. Dead roots and dead stem cannot deliver any water. It is amazing how fast they will root however when started over, especially this time of year. Good luck with that.

Ann W. -You are absolutely right about "The World of Hoyas" not saying H. fraterna was hard to get to bloom. I was mistaking the two hoyas like you thought. It was H. meliflua ssp. fraterna (the banana leafed one I have) that he says he finds harder to bring into bloom.
On pg. 156, he states, "Hoya meliflua subsp. fraterna is one species that I find difficult to bring into flower. It's rank growth, long internodes and infrequent flowering preclude it's inclusion in many collections."
Then a little further on says, " The smaller leaved subspecies, Hoya meliflua spbsp. meliflua is a much better bloomer."
So, I stand corrected on that count. Now...I am just going to have to get one of the REAL H. fraternas like Ms Kitty has so I too can have those super looking blooms.
Carol---are you now going to change the tags of your H. "aff. fraterna"
to just plain "H. fraterna"?
Marcy

Heres an update photo as of yesterday, 6/18.
Carol, the pictures you had posted didn't show a recurved corolla like Green's H. fraterna has. Did they recurve after you took the (lovely) photos?

Gosh, Mark. Those look like they are about to burst. I am holding my breath!
Ann

How come Ann's buds are redish and Mark's are yellow/green? Are these 2 the same kind of hoya?
Marcy

I think they're the same. Probably just light conditions plus the plants are young and the flowers (that don't blast) may not be typical for the plant.

Mark, this is so exciting! Thanks for this last photo. It is nice to see what they look like in the different stages of opening.
Ann

The leaves on this plant appear in pictures to look a lot like the H. lasiantha leaves. Do they look like that in person?
Marcy

Mark, that is a great photo! Can't wait to see more of the flowers!

Christina

Marcy, I don't have lasiantha, so can't say. I'll bet Ann does.
Thanks Christina!

I am not stepping into the H. fraterna vs H. aff fraterna because I am not qualified as Ann is. My understanding is that the determination by Blume is somewhat fuzzy...and it was called 'fraterna' (brother) because it was/is so close to H. coriacea and I believe there were no flowers with the type. I got my plant from David Liddle, and that (H. aff fraterna) is his determination, so I stick with that. I really respect Ann's knowledge and background....but the whole hoya thing is such a can of worms...I leave it to the experts and since I got it from David...I trust his judgement on this.

Carol

today:

COOL flowers!!

Wow...I love those furry flowers. Looks like a big Teddy Bear starfish.
Marcy

My daughter calls it the 'Tele Tubby' hoya :~)

MsKitty, how is your's doing? -joanne

OK Mark, put your olfactory nerves to work and tells us how it smells.
:-)
Marcy

Sadly, it has no smell whatsoever. I can usually smell Hoyas that most people say have no scent, like Kerrii, but nada from fraterna.
There is a thread I started on MSN called aff. fraterna where I discuss this one with David Liddle- it seems that this IS a clone of Hoya fraterna, not neccesarily the only clone in cultivation. I'm going to drop the aff. Hello Hoya fraterna!

Lovely fuzzy flowers Mark.
Christine

Thanks for the research, Mark. I saw the thread, but cannot post so I couldn't verify. I asked David today and he confirmed that as to the picture you sent, it is H. fraterna....but then...no one really knows if these names are right, do we?

Last two photos- after almost all of the buds blasting, the final dozen or so all opened today in the space of a couple hours. Later tonight, some started bending back their corollas. Gorgeous color.

just now:

Mark they are beautiful! I am still waiting and hoping mine open.
Ann

Mark, that is lovely! I kind of like the flowers better when they aren't reflexed yet.

Christina

Just gorgeous! I love that color also. NO...please never say "last photo". You MUST take one when it reflexes all the way so we can see what that looks like too.
Can't wait for Ms. Kittys to open so we can compare the flowers. Keeping my fingers crossed for ya Ann.
Marcy

Mark gorgeous pictures!
Heather

Congrats Mark, a beautiful color..

Well, I just saw Animal House start to open tonight.
I am, of course, giddy with excitement! So far all of the buds are intact - lets see if it stays that way through morning since I have jossled and moved the plant so that I could photograph the, erm, "births."
Here is a bud just starting to open:

Another bud in a more advanced stage of opening:

And another open a little more:

And now for a row of them almost all of the way open (but, obviously, not yet reflexed):

Because I am so proud that they have made it ... here is an up-close-and-personal shot with one of the blooms not yet reflexed.