Dung Doo Doo and Dirtiest Part 3

Time for a shorter down load for the dial ups.
As summer comes about how warm should the compost pile be when "cooking"? And where do you take the temp? Mid way down or at the bottom? I turn mine often and how long do I wait to get it to cooking temps? Kenton this is your expertise. When you get time.

This message was edited May 1, 2006 10:59 PM

It is said that 120 is good to kill potential pathogens and seeds. Those things (and speed) are the appeal to hot composts. Higher than 150 or 160 is said to reduce nutrients (destroy more complex nutrients?) but I've not read anything scientific on that.
I like to turn mine when it gets back down to 90, watering well. Usually three turns after three or five weeks will finish the thermophilic process for me, then it is on to the finer composting, which I persoanly beleive (like you, Steve) is best done in the ground.

Temperatue shoudl be taken in the middle, this is where it is hottest. Turning it puts the cool, uncomposting outside matter in the oven to cook.

After mixing or turning, my heaps almost always heat up to 110 within 24 hours.
I'm getting weekly installments of the grass clipping fresh from the botanical gardens, and mixing it on arrival with my leaf-stockpile. It is so fun t be hot-composting again. Usally, a person doesn't want to continue to add to a working pile, but the grass is fine enough that it should immediately lend itself to becoming nitrogen. A new pile every two weeks? It will be interesting to see how it works. What I really want to do is get some fine tree shavings to add grass to weekly until it is done like last summer. That was the best compost I've ever had.

I need to go water it,
Kenton

I usually continually add to the pile over about 2 months and then let it cook. Then I start accumulating grass in one pile and plant material in the other when it is enough I start a second pile. I never water I just soak it with a soaker hose for an hour every day in the summer. I'm going to get a thermometer. Thanks Kenton

The thermometer is such a source of entertainment...
Good system, Steve. Your plants say so!

I took pictures for you today and will post them when World Regional Geography stops callng at me with a South-american accent...

Are our lady-friends still about? I wonder how Susan is doing with the move, and Donna.

(Do you have a Metasequoia, Steve, in your little bizarre forest?)
Kenton

What is that? I you mean Dawn Redwood, no they won't grow here. I planted one in seattle and I think it has been cut down. Way too big. Quite beautiful. The only Tree I'm pushing is the Full Moon Maple. I will cry when it freezes but I will thrill in the joy of keeping it alive another year.
I was reading another thread about pine needles and he had good luck with his ph staying under 7 when the area was 8. But he did say that pine needles attract termites so he keeps them away from the house. He was describing deep layers of pine needles and how slow they rot. I can only say amen to that.
I think it is time to start a compost thread called : Breakdown times of different products in Zone 3 thru 9. We could collect a bunch of different product and see what works best. Also we could sell the no chip/shred advantages to slow composting and soil structure. Even if you are a speed freak with your boiled worm composting. You never saw the forest being in a hurry to decompose up where it gets cold.

True thing, Steve.
I have a picture or two for you of compost heating up to 120 after 20 hours.. Fine compost!

I guess the ultimate (God-made ideal) way to compost would be top dressing. Recall that we are merely fast forwarding things, The differences in compost techniques is like VCR's fast-forward and a DVD's skip-chapter. When unnnatural man creates compost material faster than it can be top-dress broken down, we have to adapt. Too, why would there be thermophilic bacteria if things didn't get hot-composted in nature?

I'll bet if you want to know breakdown times you will see direct correlations to particle size and carbon/Nitro ratio. Grass: Watch'er rot. Big woodchips: write and publish a novel in between checking on it.
I figure, too, that cold-location forests are slow in every way anyhow. Trees are slow, even the people are slow. Perhaps all the more reason to hurry it up if you want a garden in a place that has two and a half days of frost-free growing season...

I'm for a two-part amendment program: 1: mechanically mix in ridiculous amounts (ridiculous!) of fine and course material deeply only once and well so as to not overtill. 2: Topdress well (coarse and fine)and amend backfill for planting holes continually until you die. Tell your kids to do the same or you will haunt them.

Hey, don't you have a chipper shredder? I think that any kind of course material 1/8 inch wide and up is a big boost to soil structure. There are sensible limits to sizes of things rotting... (Like a bed full of 10' logs!) If anything, the biggest enemy of soil strucure I have ever seen is stepping on your soil-especially when it is wet. I have an area that is about 30% the structure I want after being compacted more than a year ago. I've added more organic matter, hand-forked and wormed it, too.

JUST DON"T WORK WITH WET SOIL!

Rant!
Kenton

Pictures of my not-so-well located compost staging area. The front driveway. My truck occupies the latter half... Conveneint for loading, but sad to see composting enrich the soil it sets on only to benefit my neighbor's evil Willow trees.

The day (morning) after I mixed (lightly watered) grass and leaves. In the afternoon, the neighbor brought me more grass (so I added more leaves) and I flattened it all out to water it evenly. Then I piled it up. (Closed oven door)

The day after that (today). As soon as it hits 90, I will turn the whole thing (and water if necessary). The biggest problem will be it's tendency to reduce in size and compact upon itself, so turning (when the bacteria begins to suffocate and the pile cools...) it thoroughly will keep the bugger operating at full steam. After it does not heat up as hot anymore with a turning, It will sit for a month or so and be turned every week.

By the way, my thermometer is not exactly on. It is about 15 degrees twisted to the cooler. I figured this out when cold spring earth was registering 25F!

Anyhow. The compost is left a bit coarse (I am beginnign to think this is the best compost- ever. A discovery made by mistake.) With Steve behind me, I think, I theorize that if the final stage in decay happens in the soil, it makes for a better structure. (Which is essential for the plants to take advantage of the compost) I have several experiences that seem to point this way.

Compost, sifted to remove big hunks and be suitable for backfilling.

Here is an area in which I used half the compost that I would have liked to, and at the time, would have rototilled it to death, but I had time constraints and was to leave the country. So, I tilled once to loosten the cloddy, dry, clay, and tilled once more to mix in the almost-done compost (again, I had time constraints). The minimal tilling and unfinished compost were key. (although I did not realize it)

Now I have a soil, not even three quarters of a year old, that grows things by far better than soil that has twice the compost. It absorbs water like no clay soil should (again, by far better than the higher-compost soil...). And the worms are more plentiful. It is absolutely amazing. I find it funny to think that I looked out of my truck on my way out of the drive at it last year and thought "Blast it, that was a shoddy job that didn't get enough compost... I'm going to regret it."

But look at that (youthful) structure!

That's all.
Kenton

Good discussion Kenton. You think nature is superior well I don't. We can radically change soil in a brief moment and make a very diverse population of plants exist in a small garden area. Nature can't though Gods garden is a little bigger than mine. Your right though about the two step soil building. Been out in the garden all day time to sleep.

I agree that we can change it fast. Remember, I do DVD-Gardening...
The real nature-superiority beleivers were the tree guys who thought you should do nothing but topdress, eh?

They are frenchmen and poles. That is why Hitler marched over their countries in 2 weeks. Quite simple if you know what you are doing. I know soil is dammaged briefly but the overall effect of soil change here is a world of worms, funguys, and bacteria to feed my world. Butterflies, white flies, little buzzers every where when I did my new bed. You should have seen the worms and birds go nuts. Now there is a symphony going on out there day and night. Ahh their singing Carmen.

hello men
well it has been awhile , i was sick for about 7 days dead dog sick, then the comp went on the fritz, for about 5 days
Here is what i did (Kenton i know you are not the tilling kind of guy but...) lol
Today i tilled my soil.
My neighbor who seems to be on the not so busy side , has a beutiful weed garden lol now my soil is all weeds and then some.
So i tilled and therfore i am, i tilled alll the weeds under and picked out what i could. I relize i will be fighting all summer with weeds but i hope to mulch deep enough around the vegs to help with that prob.
Planted some peas, beans ,lettuuce , we are due for a thunderstorm, i thought that would be good to get things rolling so i don't have to do the watering. lol
That is some nice soil you have there Kenton :)
I wish i could get some hot compost here , but i think i m just compost challenged lol.
cant turn the ol heap like i used to:( age you now it creeps up on you. Tumbler is just sitting right now too, just can't get that thing to agree with me, that is t works for me not me working for it.
Havn't moved yet . DH is on his way to Mexico for a few days then on to Utah.
So it up to me to forge for myself.
well off to bed my aching back!!
sue

Boy Sue you are almost a poet or philosopher. Sorry to hear about you illness. It must not have been bird flu cause you are still alive. So as a woman do you know how to hunt and gather now that DH is absent. Always remember to stay up-wind (oops)from the bears, goats, mountain lion or whatever you have to capture. I'm up in Alaska now and my veterinarian who I am filling in for is off to hunt the big Kodiak bear tomorrow. He will be taking a boat across the Shellikof Straights to the Alaska Peninsula to boat hunt the bear. They sight them and then hike up the mountains to stalk them to get a good shot. They have 2 shooters so when the first one shoots the second one gets a quick shot off to finish the mammoth. They say they are so fast that they could lose the bear if it is only wounded. Quite interesting stalking Kodiaks. Hummmm. I think they don't hunt them with switches up here. LOL

This message was edited May 9, 2006 11:42 PM

Hey fellow composters take a look at a day at composting. http://davesgarden.com/journal/ed/index.php?tabid=3149

I'm rootin' for da bear.

Compost pictures and such later. Hey-tillers save backs.
Kenton

This is one of the rare times I have laughed aloud at the computer. What real fun. I love it, Steve.

I am inspired to show my process now, since I think so highly of it until I screw it up.

I did take Shakespere in HS lol
Alaska aaaaah magnific( with a goofy french accent) lol
No comments about tilling fron the Kenton gallery? heehee,
i though i would get a lecture :)
HHHmmm forage , yep i do now how to hunt, but Dh says i shoulnd't have a gun, says i m to hormonale , what on earht could have ever given him that idea ( i ponder at the thought heehee)
No Montain Lions in Ohio, to small . But CA is having a problem with them in back yards!!!!!! in the city limits !!!
I did see a tasty looking squirrel though the other day.
Steve what do i do with all these weeds i have just tilled under? will mulch help?
cant' wait to see the pics Kenton,
sue

Sue I will rototill the first time and then daily remove the new growth for a week and then all usually is well. The occasional pull during the summer. You should follow your husbands advice and keep the gun shut up.

RJuddHarrison;
From the sound of it, welcome to the club, you are an honorary member now! The penultimate degree may be reached by collecting your coworker's teabags, coffee grounds, and fruit peels at luchtime. Avaricious snatching of leaves from public parks is the lst degree, maybe.
What do you other folks think is the greatest hieght of the compost-to-plant mania? Creating a fake float to follow parades and pick up the horse-born remnants?

Kenton

LOL....Yes..my friends thought I was nuts as I was picking up all the nicely bagged leaves... offering to clear out the chicken coups..and occasional collection of dried bovine patties.
It took me long enough, but ya/ll hammered into my head..it/s the soil..the soil..the soil
Hey..I think I might have enough flowers to make a fake float now..kind of like recycling
Rj

Rj

With enough colors of flowers you could spell of "Keeping our city clean" LOL :o)

What a great Idea. Wish I knew someone with a horse. May have to find one.

Do snails drink Beer? or just slugs?

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

Good idea, Sandy. or "Leave your trimmings here."
or "Chipper Shredder wanted." Check the nickle-ads for horse dung.
Hmm. Good question. Slugs & Snails are essentially the same- both are repugnant gastropods... Usually, slugs are more often blamed for plant destruction, (Both are more often just dead-leaf eaters) but I don't trust anything with gelatinous eyes mounted on retractable stalks... Including great aunts.

Hooray for RJ, the success story! Your friends haven't seen anything yet. Have you trained them to save their teabags/ kitchen-scraps for you?

How's the fishing, Steve? Enjoying the evening company of numerous taxodermic victims?
Kenton

No fishing just Grizz hunting this trip. No victims yet but am ready and willing. Everything drinks beer, except a few homosapiens. Put a glass of beer out and you will attract more critters than peanut butter.

What does one do in the garden setting if he wants to attract Teetotaling vermin?

Goodbye office paper; They'll never catch me!

lol-- no I haven't trained them to do that yet. My own garden though is pretty good at producing mulch. My back yard is a jungle..I have several papaya trees that have last seasons papaya ready..can't eat em all, and most people here aren't that fond of them..so they "recycle" (after I snatch the seed) hmm..paper ..eh?

RJ, there was an earlier thread on this forum about the weirdest thing you ever put into a compost pile, you might find it interesting. :) I'll see if I can dig up the link...

I just told someone their word was as worthless as dog poo on a compost pile. It was the nicest way I could find to say it.

I bought alfalfa pettels last fall. I opened them and 1/2 look moldy. They don't smell moldy. I was wondering if they are still good to use or if it will it hurt anything?

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

RJ, here you go...

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/584779/

The mold is just starting what you are going to do with it in the compost. Fire away!

Mmm. Papayas. I hope mine fruits this year. I may plant it out today.

I did go with someone's suggestion of dryer lint. Result: Denim lint will compost.

Kenton

Paper for vermin, you lost me folks , or i m just having a golden moment.lol i m busy hunting mice in my kitchen right now, now that Broc is gone they are back in full force.
Ok i have a problem wti h a neighbor who is a master gardener thhhththt .
We are both friendly people to one anther ,but the COMPATITION IS ON!!!!! she is building up her garden with 10 yr old aged horse
Ok Kenton " " i need you man" please tell me my Llama is better than her horse , she is sooo snooty ,
Here you go to top off the parade, Steve can track down the left over fish scraps from the bears he is hunting and bring them home to put on his compost pile LOL how bout it Steve "aye"
can you compost fish leftovers ? guts and bone?
If my parents come to visti me i will have them bring me some seaweed from the beaches in CA LOL
sue

Jsut make sure to well-bury that fishgut. (to discourage scavengers.)

Lets us see if this works... The only real advantage of Llama versus horse is the salt. And the novelty!

http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/index.html#http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/manure.html

K

I have also been putting the alfalfa in the holes I dig for my plants. Will that also be ok?

Re the fish stuff....Ma Vie sent me this link a few weeks ago..you may find it very interesting...the premise being...alot of fish was used.
http://deltafarmpress.com/news/051114-terra-preta/

you may have read it already...but it is very interesting.

aaaoohh...I had to rub my eyes to make sure I read that ....then I had to rub them again, as the discussion kept going like they were talking about orange peels...I can tell what I am NOT going to compost..hahahha

Rj,

Just from your last post I think I will pass on reading it. :O)

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

Reconsider reading it- a fascinating article and makes you glad you are composting. I also googled "terra preta" to find more info. I thought it dealt more with charcoal than with fish.
HM