Juniper or Arborvite screen/hedge?

I have been surfing the web looking for the perfect plant to create an evergreen privacy sceen in our front yard. My idea is to have a gate in the middle, flanked with 2 narrow lattice panels to grow some other lovelies. I would like this privacy screen to not get too thick or gigantic. Leyland cypresses are definitely out. Arborvite seems perfect but it is sooo common. Junipers are different and many of the columnar varieties have the look of the Italian cypresses. However, I am concerned the junipers will eventually loose growth on the bottoms or sides if planted too closely. Can't have a ratty looking screen. Any advice?

Linda

How is this screen to be protected from the deer?

We rarely have deer as our front yard borders a busy road...'though I have seen them in the neighborhood. Many other yards in the area have arborvitaes. I was thinking about Emerald Green arborvitae but I got on some extension agents web site and there can be many problems from winter desiccation, over watering or underwatering, not as care free as I had imagined. As for the junipers I see that once you get a bare area that's it, no regrowth. I particularly like the look of juniper skyrocket. And then I found this photo which is the look I would like to achieve, what ever I end up using:

Here is skyrocket

And then there is the columnar scotch pine...in my case I am sure my wallet would not support a screen of these nor would it be the best choice but they are lovely!

Linda

I think I'm losing my columnar scots pine to diplodia. Not absolutely sure on that diagnosis, but close. I would hesitate to try it.

Yes, with junipers once you lose green growth, it will not be replaced as they do not have dormant buds. That terminology may not be technically correct, but that's the general idea.

Supposedly, the western arborvitae, Thuja plicata, is more deer resistant than the eastern arborvitae, Thuja occidentalis. "Spring Grove" is a cultivar of the former. "Green Giant" is a hybrid of T. plicata and T. standishii, and I'm not sure if it is or is not a deer favorite.

Scott

Can anyone else confirm what Scott is saying about the western arborvivitae as being deer resistant in the midwest area? Also will they grow as well in our climate. Up here, eastern arborvitae is the preferred deer browse in the winter.
Edit: I'm sorry I should have done more research. In Plant Files the two comments for the western arborvitae confirmed deer resistance but were from zone 5. Have any of our zone 4 correspondents tried this plant for hardiness?

This message was edited Mar 30, 2006 11:20 AM

Hi celticgarden,

Simply try a different cultivar of Eastern Arborvitae.

Thuja occidentalis:
'Degroot's Spire'
'Malonyana'
'Rosenthalii'
'Emerald Variegated' - If you want variegation.

Personally, I'd go with the 'Degroot's Spire' and I know of a source selling one-gallons for 3.50 each on the West Coast.

If you're interested send me a D-mail and I could help you acquire them (It's a wholesale nursery I order from).

Dax

They also have 'Emerald' for 2.50 each in 1-gallons.

What a lovely photo, that will be beautiful whatever kind you choose, I read this thread because I wanted to do something similar on our west side of our property, but mine is for a wind break, thanks for asking this question, it also helped me :)

Yes, that looks great for a couple of years. I hope you're thinking of moving by then, because if one plant dies or gets winterburn or other damage, it'll ruin that uniform look. In the interest of bio-diversity and remembering also that variety is the spice of life:
Why not plant a mixed grouping of several of the cultivars mentioned, including the expensive Scotch pine? I think these types of screens have a charm all their own.

I totally, absolutely, emphatically agree with PrairieGirl, but I was holding back waiting for someone else to make the point this time. We have these screening and windbreak discussions frequently and it's always the same. You might try to search out some of the threads that have gone around on this subject during the past few months -- it's all been said before, but I can't recall the exact titles of the relevant threads now.

The screen photo you found is uniform now, but won't be forever. Living plants are not static architectural elements, and bad things can happen to good plants even in the relatively benign climate of Connecticut. Besides, informal, diverse screen plantings can be sooo much more interesting and creative and seasonally vibrant if done well -- any half-sober dodo can plant a bunch of evergreens in a straight line.

One other caution: with all the fatal problems Scots pine has in the US, I would never plant one where I could not afford to lose it.

Guy S.

good points, glad you mentioned that. I had a start on my side for the windbreak, and the flood of 2005 took out some of my trees, the cypress that were there are now dead, the Rose of Sharons remain and the lilac's but mine is a spattering of things just making a hedgeline for windblock, but I can see where that lovely uniform line would look much different if one of those lovely shrubs were to be snapped off or die, thanks for bringing this up - ok done hijacking this thread sorry!!

PrairieGirl

I fully understand your thoughts about biodiversity. Luckily I have a degree from a highly esteemed college that involved a plethora of environemntal science courses...all stressing natural, ecologically sound and diverse approaches to landscape management. Luckily too I am a long standing practitioner of organic gardening methods. It is true, however, that we are all challenged by the constraints of our particular suburban domains. One of my challenges is a somewhat narrow front yard that lies along a rather well used country road. Not only is there a fair amount of traffic noise from this road but there is no privacy and no physical barrier to provide a degree of safety for my two children. Now, I could use up half the yard planting a mixed shrub border. I could dive headfirst into small debt by building a beautiful cedar fence (none other would do). Or I could go with my plan of planting a line of arborvitae as pictured, with the exception of the line being broken by a gate and lattice panels planted with firethorns or roses or some other lovely climbers. What I have not yet stated are the plans for the rest of the front yard. Happily, one portion will be devoted to wild flower and ornamental grass beds to encourage a thriving insect population which will include predatory species. There will be a diverse shade garden against the north side of the house. On the west side of the drive there will be mixed shrub species. There will most likely be room for a few vegetable beds and eventually a pond. With any luck there will be some espaliered fruit trees. Wildlife will not be forgotten. Plantings will consider them. After all, my suburban yard is a certified (by the National Wildlife Federation) wildlife habitat. All of this will be, as the rest of my yard is currently, managed organically. I think I can handle a line of arborvitaes in this plan.

So, before you attempt to "educate," you ought to be sure people really need it.

Linda

Oops. Linda, I disagree with your premise. On the threads such as these, which are supposed to be a free-flowing center of advice and knowledge, one almost never knows the level of expertise with which one is conversing. I believe it is better to under-estimate a questioners level of knowledge than to over-estimate it. Why? For one, it is just better to get the information out there and expose it for discussion. Furthermore, other readers who are not the questioner and who maybe don't have as high a level of expertise, may well be able to learn more from the thread if it contains some basic information or, more precisely, all the information.

Also, many responders come from different points of view. The more information one reports, the more this point of view becomes apparant. For instance, natives are very important to Equilibrium. In a discussion on, say, what plant would look best in a site, her response, although it might include more information than the reader sought, would reveal that her expertise is natives. If natives are important to the questioner, they might lend more weight to her response. Her response, likewise, might be dismissed by someone who is not interested in native plants.

In short, I know that Prairiegirl and Starhill were not patronizing you. They were just expressing their views, which they should feel absolutely free to do on a forum such as this. Guy knows that I'm a serious (never too serious!) gardener, and, yet, if I had posted the same question, I'm sure he would have responded similarly.

It sounds like your yard is very cool. Congratulations on the NWF certification. I didn't even know they did that.

Scott

Scott, VERY well said, thanks for clarifying this. We all need to think about this occasionally. And yes, I would have said the same thing to you -- but you've heard it all many times before, and apparently Linda had not!

Linda, we all learn from one another here. None of us has a monopoly on knowledge, regardless of the prestige of our respective educational institutions. I have several decades of experience since earning my own degree, and many publications to my credit, and I lecture frequently at seminars, but I still learn something from nearly every person I encounter here. As your black kitty says, "advice is free" -- but that doesn't make it worthless. I hope you feel that you have learned something, even if you must choose for your own valid reasons to ignore it.

There are fence panels, vine arbors, foreground foci, and other techniques for establishing a diverse, effective screen in a tight space. You also will find lots of useful suggestions if you search those older threads I mentioned, including some about noise attenuation for your busy road exposure. Consult with a good garden designer for some ideas (unless your degree was in L.A.), then apply sound organic methods to implement them.

My own garden has "Acres for Wildlife" certification from the State of Illinois, and many of the others on this forum also share your enthusiasm and actions for ecological responsibility. You're among kindred spirits here, so please don't think we're not trying to help you.

Guy S.

I'm reading this topic because I've considered planting something along the road to block the traffic. Gee Linda, you seem so educated that I'm surprised you need to ask any questions here. :) I think the picture you posted is lovely but nothing looks worse than a formal line of planting missing a shurb or two because something killed it. It's near impossible to replace at the height the other shurbs are also.

I've started planting blue spruce 30 feet apart and about 25 feet in from the road. I've already had to replace one but it was small so it wasn't a big problem. Down the other side of my property I'm going to do the same but have other trees mixed in. I'm getting the blue spruce free from a friend who needs his thinned out so the 'free' factor has highly influenced my choice. I also planted a bunch of free Rose of Sharon seedlings along the ditch. They must be tough cause so far they have all lived.

I like the mixture of a lot of different things but then I have the room to plant just about anything I want. I know when space is limited you have to stick with things that are more vertical and full than things that spread out. I had that limitation at my city house.

I don't have any certification or anything like ya'll do about being a wildlife preserve. I do have tons of deer and last night I had a couple dozen turkeys running around the yard. I did put in a big 300 x 600 pond and we're stocking it with perch and minnows right now. I have loads of woodpeckers and other birds too. I know in the woods out back there are fox and coyotes and porcupines, rabbits and all kinds of wildlife. Nobody has come by to give me any awards or anything yet. Don't need them. I just have to look out on my pond and see the mating pair of ducks swimming around when the sun is coming up. Good enough for me.

I thank all those who give advice on these topics. I don't have a degree in anything horticulture related but I love to ask questions and learn from those who do and are kind enough to take the time to explain things so I can understand them.

I will not argue...coming to the 'net for info, freely given from diverse viewpoints is a great beauty in the world of technology. I stand corrected. Thanks for the input. I am ultimately grateful to hear about the passion and good stewardship. I too hold the belief that I have something to learn from everyone. It is fair to be reminded of that from time to time. Wisdom is certainly not gotten in a classroom, thanks to all you DGers for offering yours.

Linda

Let us know what you decide to do, Linda. We're all vested in your yard now!

And Loon, you can keep those tree-eating porcupines up there in Michigan -- we have enough problems just with the deer!
;-)

Guy S.

Linda - I'm a student myself, not an expert. I'm also a newbie, and I've got a lot to learn! That is my personal reason for joining DG. I meant no disrespect. I have seen that type of arborvitae hedge a lot here, particularly in newer developments, because it's cheap and fast-growing. And I'm one of the few, I guess, who really like arborvitaes. It sounds as though nothing but experience will convince you. Maybe the secret to maintaining such a hedge is organic gardening practices, they at least ensure the plants are healthy and can withstand stress. I would love to hear more about your gardens.

If you're open to some different ideas, may I direct you to a fellow here who has gardens I greatly admire? Just look at the drive entrance photo here for an idea for a hedge that is easy and will knock your socks off! The plants are dwarf arctic willow, Karl Foerster feather reed grass, potentilla, and barberry. I sincerely wish I had a country road to plant these on. When I showed this to my husband, he cautioned me against using the willows, with the sewer drain located on our parkway. We directly face the fire department/village hall/public library in our little town, and I would love to screen the view!
http://davesgarden.com/journal/d/t/soferdig/1717/

Thanks PrairieGirl! Nice photos and I will think the concept over. I can't have my screened area be as wide as that. I'll post a picture later and everyone can tell me what they would do.....Linda

Hey celticgarden, a hearty welcome to you.

Hey Decumbent,

Ohhhh, I love these threads!
I planted arborvitae on either side of a long driveway in southeast Louisiana as an entrance to our place. I bought them in gallon pots at Wal-Mart and they grew to be beauties with beautiful shapes in only a few years. They were also good screens shielding us from the River Road and the noise. I loved them.
Mosquito control people, with good intentions, drove up and down the driveway with the pesticide going full blast at least once a week. The diesel fuel in the pesticide plus the hot, scorching sun fried the arborvitae and I finally had to heartbreakingly cut them down--all 18 of them. They were 4 feet wide and about 10 feet tall.
I am glad I read this thread because it has given me the idea to plant arborvitae along the eastern side of the property where it can be a screen, also. I know it will thrive there as it did so well along the driveway.
Until the mosquito control debacle the arborvitae stayed green, was full and nicely shaped.
Guy did not care for my arborvitae allee' and suggested I not replant anything along that driveway. I still have not planted it and it is over a year, but only because Hurricane Katrina has upset my schedule. Anyone have any suggestions for new plantings?

Porcupines eat trees?? Who knew?? I know my son shot one that came charging at him when he was in the woods. One down and ?? to go!

I like the looks of that artic willow. I loved the pics. It was nice to see what a ninebark looks like since I have 5 of them coming. I accidentally sent too much money into the conservation department so instead of a refund they're throwing in 5 ninebark. I'd never heard of it before.

Will artic willow survive in the spring if it is under water? The area I am considering putting it is under water in the spring. If not, then what will grow under water in the spring?

Hey Loon, you might not be cold enough for Salix arctica. I thought that was a far north tundra species but maybe I'm wrong. One of my favorite trees can handle the conditions you described- Taxodium distichum. Based on my limited experiences with that tree, it actually seems to prefer the conditions you described.

I'm getting my perch and minnows at a place called The Perch Farm in Standish, Michigan. I'm hoping to get lots of free advice while I'm there ordering. :) I have not yet bought the book you referenced but now that I'm reminded I'll be looking for it. I'll also look up that Taxodium Distichum you recommended. Remember the water is only bad there in the spring and then it dries out. Thanks for the help.

Liveoaklady......that was a terrible story about losing your plantings from the mosquito patrol people. I'd have cried I'm sure. Good luck getting something you like to replant with. I used to admire a long winding driveway planted with dark leafed maple trees on both sides. They were about 15 feet tall or more and were striking. Of course the house was a multi million dollar house with emerald green lawn perfectly manicured. Ha!! I'm sure they must have full time gardeners to do all the dirty work. Not really 'my' style but it did catch your eye and was beautiful!!

I could be wong (no, not ME! LOL) but I think the plant called dwarf arctic willow is Salix purpurea 'Nana'. I also think it would do great under water, Loon, if it behaves like any other willow. Here is a link I found.
http://www.naturehills.com/new/product/shrubs_productdetails.aspx?proname=Dwarf+Blue+Leaf+Arctic+Willow
liveoaklady, have you considered, um, live oaks?

I most certainly have considered live oaks but I do not think I shall live long enough to see them form an allee'.
I have live oaks planted elsewhere on the property, however.
I was considering perhaps investing in some that are not too small and planting an understory of azaleas (so southern, I know, but I am in Louisiana!). It would take only a few live oaks on each side cause you've got to let them spread.

Now I'm green with zonal envy! That sounds lovely.

Magnolias would be nice too, smaller saucer magnolias (Magnolia x soulangiana) might be nice so you don't have to wait until you're 90 for them to mature. They are a bit messy.

We have only to learn about diversity from our experience with the American Elm and the American Chestnut. All of us who were kids in the midwest in the 40's and 50's remember the stately elm allee's on every suburban street, Gone. Think of those who have put their effort and hopes on ash. Mix it up, who knows what is next, better to replace one than all. Ken

I'm looking for columnar evergreens that will only get 5' or 6' tall at the most. I want a little privacy, but I don't want to lose my view of the road and field. I put in Emerald arborvitae for privacy, and like them so far. Deer are not a problem. Any sugestions?

Hey Ken, Oikos has some nice Chestnuts that have a considerable amount of American Chestnut dna in them. They're blight resistant. The Botany Shop has several nice Elm selections that have American Elm dna in them. The Valley Forge is DED resistant but there are others that are too.

These Chestnuts and Elms will fill that niche that has been vacated quite nicely.

http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&
http://www.botanyshop.com/