A Mission

There is a 501 (c) 3 out there in Northern Illinois that would like to redirect their focus back toward Native Plants exclusively for their 2007 Native Plant Sale. They would very much appreciate recommendations of woodies and herbaceous perennials (will start another thread for those) that they can place in front of the Board. It was suggested that it would be nice if people who made recommendations also included why they recommended a plant be included in their next Native Plant Sale.

From this website-
http://www.ill-inps.org/INPS%202006_files/page0010.htm

Maybe they should start with Swink's and Mohlenbrock's books. Then they could contact some of the folks at WildOnes, the Illinois Native Plant Society, the Morton Arboretum, the Chicago Botanic Garden, and the IDNR Natural Heritage program. Are they growing their own plants or buying them, and if the latter, do they know what's available?

Once they have a tentative list, we could help them tweak it and annotate it. I'm not trying to duck anything, but they are asking us to do a lot of work for them at a very busy time.

Guy S.

The University of Nebraska has been doing something like this for 20 years. This web site gives names, etc., of the people who started the native plant sale and have continued with it. I would think someone would need to contact the people directly to find out the ""why" of a particular plant they carry on their sale, but I don't think that would be terribly difficult. I could try to find a phone number or e-mail for you if you'd like. Of course, the native plants here will be some different than yours, but I would think the ins and outs of starting up a native plant sale would be the same regardless of location, wouldn't they?

Here is the site I'm referring to. It gives a lot of info about the history of the sale and has a rather extensive plant list, only part of which I made it through. :-) I hope it can be helpful.
http://springaffair.unl.edu/about.shtml

Hey McGlory, loved that link! Thank you! Say, you're east of the Rockies and many of the woodies that are indigenous to your State will also be indigenous to our region. What are 2-3 of your personal favorites and why?

Dearest Guy, Here's my take on the situation. They hired a new person who made a big boo boo. Burning Bushes were offered for sale to the public and now that they ended up on the list, they feel horrible because orders were already placed. These are just normal people trying to volunteer and they are trying. It would appear somebody over there confused Euonymus alata with Euonymus atropurpureus. Mistakes happen.

Currently, there is no local chapter of the Illinois Native Plant Society for our area and there hasn't been for a few years. I was asked to come in and take it over but I truly don't have the time. Morton Arboretum is a great place however personnel resources are rather limited and this organization would be limited to lists that were available on line. Morton Arbs lists are great, but they would not reflect what the average Joe Public might find to be attractive enough to buy. They did contact somebody at WildOnes- me. I can tell you that they could not afford a copy of Swinks right about now and although I own all three editions, they do not ever get loaned out for obvious reasons. This organization is trying but they only have what appears to be two paid employees fresh out of college and newly hired and the rest of the people appear to work full time and do what they can within time restraints. I could provide them with an extremely comprehensive list in all of about 2 hours. But, my tastes do not represent the buying public so I was sort of hoping people here might suggest a few plants and collectively the contributions would represent the buying public. I know I have recenlty acquired a lust for Viburnum and I've always had a thing for American Yellowwood, Bald Cypress, and Kentucky Coffeetree but that's just me. This organization is going to need to know which native woodies mainstream gardeners would be interested in adding to their properties so that they can have a better shot at offering woodies that would have broader appeal.

It was their intent to locate nurseries after they made their selections. I can help provide them with a list of at least 10 nurseries.

So Guy! Cough up 2-3 native woodie recommendations for me dear. If everyone gives up a few based on their personal tastes, they'll have a nice list to work with that doesn't reek of the personal preferences of one individual.

Viburnum dentatum, V. rafinesquianum, V. recognitum
Viburnum prunifolium
Viburnum acerifolium
Asimina triloba
Dirca palustris
Bitternut Hickory
Carpinus caroliniana
Betula lutea
Betula pumila
Quercus imbricaria
Sassafrass
Rubus odoratus
Lindera benzoin

If I walked into a nursery that had the above list of plants, I would be mighty impressed. One could outfit a landscape quite well with such woody plants. On a side note, Guy, is there any selection for exceptional specimens of Q. imbricaria? It is almost magnolia-like in appearance. Any with exceptionally large glossy leaves?


This message was edited Mar 22, 2006 12:46 PM

Resin, a 501 (c) 3 is a not for profit organization. Fund raising is critical to their survival as well as to the services they provide to the communities in which they operate.

Thank you Kevin.

Resin, Section 501 (c) 3 of the tax code establishes tax-exempt and tax-deductible status for charitable organizations. It is the highest form of legal tax protection for non-profit organizations in the US.

Kevin, the problem with Q. imbricaria is that it is the most susceptible of all Midwest oak species to several epidemic problems. I probably wouldn't plant a shingle oak right now any more than I would plant an ash. There is a supposed cultivar grown in Europe, but it's actually a hybrid. By the way, Betula lutea is now B. alleghaniensis and Sassafrass is Sassafras. I don't know that Dirca would be a good choice for the general public due to its slow growth and finicky nature, but I like the rest of your list.

Equil, suggest they go to the INPS web site (http://www.ill-inps.org/). They don't need to talk with the defunct local chapter -- there are several other very active chapters out there. And they certainly could speak with their regional natural areas biologist or whatever they're called under this administration. I'm just saying that we all have a lot of work to do this season and if they want some help they should show a little initiative or be willing to pay a consultant.

It's pointless to make lists out of thin air when we have no idea what they will be able to find. This is analogous to those posters who say "I want a tree so what should I buy" and then we all have to coax the details and limitations out of them. It wouldn't take them long to get plant lists from their local nurseries so they would have a starting point. Maybe they should be pointed towards nurseries like The Natural Garden and Possibility Place. It wouldn't take them any longer to give us some guidelines about cost, size, etc. either, and the books are available at libraries if they are told what to look for.

But if you insist, I guess I would add Ostrya virginiana, Cercis canadensis, Crataegus spp., Hamamelis virginiana, Amelanchier arborea, Nyssa sylvatica, Quercus macrocarpa, Q. bicolor, and Q. alba to Kevin's list, and maybe some things like Quercus muhlenbergii, Gymnocladus dioicus, and Celtis occidentalis for alkaline soil.

Guy S.

Whoops, stepped on Equil's tax message. At least we agree!

Guy S.

See how she reels us in? LOL

Okay, my two preferences are goldenrods and sand cherries. Goldenrod (Solidago) because they're pretty and liven up a garden. Can't think of what the species is. Sand cherries (Prunus besseyi, I believe) because they used to grow wild as recently as 30 years ago and now you can hardly find them because of overgrazing. Sand cherry jam is incredible stuff! They're also attractive and not overly large.

I would be clear to qualify recommendations with advice on the importance of provenance. Where they acquire the plants can make a big difference in the success or failure of them in those cold, northern Illinois landscapes. Especially with plants such as bald cypress.

Which brings up another point. What is a native plant? Bald cypress, yellowwood, and KCT do not appear in northern Illinois naturally. Is North American close enough? Would Acer circinatum qualify?

Scott

I do have an 1880's book that speaks of KCT in two different areas in southern Minnesota. Are you sure it's not in IL? But then who really know, Indians may have brought them.

In fact old Native Americans suggested that is how MN got its outpost hemlocks. I wrote an article about the west/northward expansion of Tsuga after the last ice age that includes the theory. It in one of the early editions of the American Conifer Society Bulletin.

Rick

KCT grows wild here

Sorry to hear about the Shingle Oak issues--bummer.

Some native plants good for wildlife that I'd include in a sale:

Hedera helix
Dipsacus fullonum
Prunus padus
Rubus fruticosus
Sorbus aucuparia

Don't add them to yours, though!

Resin is being a bad boy! Here I figured you'd toss Pinus resinosa, P. strobus, and P. banksiana into the ring.

Cladrastis is indigenous to northern Illinois but populations are very scattered and the species is listed as endangered and critically imperiled in Illinois. The range of Gymnocladus actually extends northward from the southern states to about 25 miles short of hitting my actual County so that's close enough for me. Taxodium is the one that would be sort of "iffie" by some standards as we northern Illinoians are probably a good 100 miles out of its native range but to me, that's close enough.

I had to look up the range of Acer circinatum and that's west of the Rockies in the Pacific northwest. I'd say that one would not be a contender although it is a North American native plant.

The working definition of a native plant will differ from you to me to the next person. There are those who hold to a 50 mile radius. Many tend to hold to 100 mile radius and I suppose I'd fall into that classification. Then there are those who feel a 200 mile radius is fine and those who feel anything east of the rockies belongs east of the rockies and west of the rockies belongs west of the rockies so if it will grow and it is from "their" side of the rockies, it's native. The next biggie would be plants that were naturally occurring before the European Settlers came and those that weren't although there are those who go back thousands of years before that. I'd tend to stick with when the European Settlers came as being the dividing time line. This works for me and it will work for them. Perhaps a gross over simplification in not addressing ecosystems as well as other factors such as source but it'll work well enough for their purposes.

I'm thinking east of the Rockies and able to be grown in zone 4 or 5 would be fine. Therefore any plant that is native to central Ilinois to about Springfield on up to central Wisconsin around Wausau and out west to the Mississippi River is probably going to work well for their purposes provisional upon the nursery stock having been grown in these same areas. I don't believe they will be expecting to get local genotype but in the case of the Bald Cypress, bare roots from Tennessee would not cut it.

Might want to take a look at the native-plant offerings at the websites for Possibility Place in Monee, IL, and The Natural Garden in St. Charles, IL.

www.possibilityplace.com and www.thenaturalgardeninc.com

Yes, those were the two I suggested she put them in contact with. Thanks for providing the links -- others might like to check them out too.

Guy S.

Well, you know I gotta hit hard on the hickories.
Carya ovata - shagbark hickory
C.laciniosa - shellbark hickory
C.illinoensis - pecan(northern/midwestern strains)

What about naturally-occuring oak hybrids, like Bebb's oak(Q.macrocarpaXalba)?
Isn't IL the Bebb's oak capital of the world?

Persimmon & pawpaw?
Native crabs, like M.ioensis? Yeah, they'll look like canaries some years, due to the CAR lesions, but hey, just think of it as fall color throughout the growing season!
Thornless Cockspur hawthorn?

Butternut(J.cinerea) - yes, I know the blight/canker is a problem, but there are butternutXheartnut or butternutXJapanese walnut selections that have been propagated for decades as 'butternut', until DNA testing recently revealed them to be hybrids.

Red mulberry. Mmmmm.

The Possibility Place there in Monee, is it a typical garden center? Or must plants be ordered? I was a little confused by their site. And Monee is where? I see Will County, but where abouts? I-80 takes me to I-55...then??? I've got to go!!

How about a couple of bird magnets from the Dogwood family: Cornus alternifolia and racemosa. I don't know if it's native to Illinois, but Comptonia peregrina (sp.?) is a very fragrant low growing shrub. Even at this time of year you can pick up the scent when passing it by. Sweet Fern seems to like the thin soils we've been, ah, blessed with.

One of the trees I would like to see more availible in the south is Acer Barbatum (southern sugar maple). So many southerners love the look of sugar maples in the northeast but dont know that there is a heat tolerant southern version that they can plant.

Thank you everyone!

Comptonia peregrina is a native here. That's one that I don't have that I think I'd like to have. I don't recall ever having seen that available anywhere which is really a shame because it's a great plant. I think I need a few of those for myself. Definitely an overlooked plant.

Interestingly enough, Sugar Maple was not all that common west of the Des Plaines River. The Des Plaines River provided a natural fire block.

Sand Cherry is an excellent choice. Not one I've seen around though. They can dig for a supplier for that and their time would be well spent.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Lonicera sempervirens or Rosa carolina.

Terry, PP is on the north side of the Manhattan-Monee Road. Your best bet is to call them (708-534-3988) for directions, then visit them and work out a deal.

Lucky, I love some (well, all!) of the plants you mentioned, but I don't know if they all would be suitable for the intended clientele here. I was trying to stick to species that might be relatively easy for them to find and to transplant. If it was just for me, I'd go with a much broader list too.

Equil, if you ever get up the gumption to come down here you can take home a start of our Comptonia . . . I might even give you an Albizia too! I think you can get Comptonia from Darrell Kromm Reeseville Ridge Nursery in SE Wisconsin -- rrn@charter.net.

Guy S.

Equil: Comptonia also available from Great Lakes Nursery, and I saw it(and bought it) from Spring Bluff Nursery in North Aurora/Batavia in larger sizes. Is Lonicera dioica the same as L. sempevirens? That is one I want. I have seen it for sale at Natural Gardens(they sell Possibility Place plants), but the price gouge always irks me.

Terry: Possibility Place is kinda like a regular nursery, but you just have to call them to tell them you are coming. Its more wholesale than retail, but they are great people to deal with nonetheless, and the plants are all there for you to choose from. It's south of I-80 a ways.

Possibility Place is a great nursery. Terry, you won't be disappointed if you go there.

Kevin, L. dioica is a different plant than L. semervirens. I think L. sempervirens is showier. You might want to check out L oblogifolia for the area around your pond as well as L. hirsuta. Both of those are really great plants too. I have no idea who is selling them though.

Oh Guy, why how thoughtful and considerate of you. Please do set aside a Comptonia for me and a few little Albizia would be really nice too and I know just what to do with them. I think DH is coming down by you with at least two but most probably three boys. They want to do the museums you sent them information on. That leaves me to let out the dogs. It was either them or me and being as how I know you love children so much, I'm sacrificing by letting them go. They're flying out to do the Smithsonian in a few weeks so they should be down your way this summer some time.

I can't hear you . . .

Guy S.

SET ASIDE SOME OF THAT NICE ALBIZIA TO SEND HOME FOR ME WITH DH AND KIDS WHEN THEY VISIT. As an added bonus, I'll even send Audrey down with them to exercise your cats a little. She loves putty tats. Shame they don't love her.

There, was that better?

Sorry, I forgot to mark this so I could come back......I have to make an appointment with them before I come? Do I have to tell them what I want? Or just pick out what I want while there? I dunno know what I want till I seez it! How far from say Braidwood, is it? I think I need resuscitating....they have stuff I'm dying for.........I'm telling my husband it's all your faults...I couldn't help it........

Terry

Equalocity, I have a Border collie that has the same affinity for cats, and the poor girl, she can't ever seem to win them over. Poor Hattie....

Audrey actually loves the cats. She wants to play with them. They hate her. My cats like my other dogs but this one they can't get far enough away from. She doesn't hurt them but she drops huge chew toys on their heads and sometimes when she sits down she sits on them and she basically annoys them. Poor Hattie and poor Audrey. Nobody but us loves them.

Terryr, it is advisable to call ahead in order to check on availability of some of your favorites and then make an appointment. An appointment is the only way to guarantee there will be someone available to help you select what you want and ring it up for you. Appointments may simply be designated as "morning" or "afternoon" on a given date. WRT the distance between Braidwood on I-55 and Monee on I-57, as the crow flies, it's not that far, but you'd have to take surface roads to go that route. Check out MapQuest.