Dung, Doo Doo, and Dirt

you are right Kenton!!!
Here is one for Steve ,whenever he gets back LOL
DH helping with top soil, i think his tractors seeeexyyyyyy
and the other is DH and FIL in our gazebo, not the greatest pic.
Both areas are being dug up and relocated.
I am going to attempt to sell my gazebo, to purchase some out door furniture.
wooops thats not dirt ,dung or doo doo, got off track, " oh yes it is , " so with compost in my garden you can see the results .LOL ( brag ,brag, fluff big chest way out, ouch!!!)
Cant take the credit , the woman who lived there before us did the flowers LOL
i was hoping to move my compost bin up on some bricks to help with air flow and put a heavy duty screen under to filter out the gold onto a old long flat bin? has anyone tried this before? i woud only use the mentod during the season then put it back on the ground in fall.
sue

and here is some more flowers created by " the woman who lived there before me" i took close ups all spring , what ws i thinking??
Nice sandy loam soil in the front been adding compost most the yrs ,mostly pumpkins left over from Halloween and turkey day ( no not the pies) LOL.
Then after i get hte ones on sale and bury them all over my front yard, havn't seen any pumkins lurking up over the yrs.
sue

Fancy.

that is a nice looking tree you ahve their Kenton, i wish we had some big ones like that on our propery. The biggest we have is a willow and i think it is not doing to well .

I have some daylillies under my trees, (sugar maples) you had mentioned not to dig up under trees? i did on one, does it have to do woth the soild and distrubing it or the roots. I know nothing of the trees and what kind of soil they should have ? any advie on trees soils. I though maybe just laying my compost over them this fall and mulch over it an let it sit till next spring. Do you use all the same for your trees? I reall do enjoy these sugar maples in the autumn.
sue

Oh no Sue! You may have kicked a bee's nest (With Steve and I about Trees and soil amendment)!

That is a Sycamore/Londone Plane. A stately tree for my area and a tough one to boot. It has taken extremely well to being underplanted. Good soil structure has not only let it survive a major amendment and planting below it, but has encouraged some ridiculously good root growth.

It is said my the learned learned folks (arboretum owners, tree fanatics) that the success of the tree relies on whether it can adapt to the natice soil, not amended.
Steve and I are our own stick-in-the-mud story. We go for deep initial amendment and much top-dressing. The key with this is to make sure that there is a gradual transition from the rich amended soil and the unatouched native.

Quick lesson on trees:
Thier roots need oxygen as much as they need water. -Have you Seen New Orleans of late? Big proof. The roots that get the air are near the surface, competing with other plants that ma be there (that's why trees in turf areas do a notch less than those that aren't usually.)
There are very deep roots that send up the shallow ones. A tree utulizes all of the surface area under it and farther for it's purposes, and soil compaction of more of this surface area is bad for the tree. (That's why paths and stepping-stones are so great, to reduce traffc-compaction to a minimum.)

If you are going to do a bed under a tree, realise that the tree and the plants must have similar water needs. If you are going to amend where here are existing roots: (this is hughly discouraged, but hey- I did it with great success) Amend systematicallly in small areas. do a 3' by 3' area on spring, another in the fall, one the next spring and so on, so the tree roots can grow into new amended spots. Like replacing the legs of a table one at a time, so as to not topple it. I suggest careful (and shallow) use of a fork (not a tiller) and plastic hand-spade. (Less apt to slice into roots) Certain trees are very sensitive to root disturbance, Birch and Maple come to mind.

When planting plants under a tree, use small plants (that need smaller holes, see) that can establish in harmony. Do not overwater these.

Penultimately, amendment to established trees must be done in slow addition very thin top-dressings (and mulch). Shredded leaves and sticks, etc. Courser amendments can be added in greater amount. (Bark, twigs)The concept is to not suddenly bury (and suffocate) the roots with a thick layer of amendment.

Finally, the best tool for mixing is worms. The very addition of organic matter will attract woirms who are the ideal and perfect tillers, composters, aerators.

Remebering the tree is critical and can end with great success. After all, it is not a shade garden anymore if the tree dies!

K. James

Well Mexico was great and I saw a whole world of unammended soil with nothing thriving on it. The few areas that they did ammend and water were growing Palms, and every tropical we all want.
Sue love your hubbies tractor!!! I can't wait to get in mine this week and start. Arrrrrrgh.
You are so fortunate that your garden was so wonderful when you arrived. The mixture of Daisies, roses, and potentilla is a great texture difference and the colors are great. I am dissapointed to not see my soil mixer. Where is it? Hey I like the corn field in the back yard as perimeter planting. I miss hearing the corn grow in July.
Hey I dissagree with Kenton a little on his don't disturb the roots thing. I disturb my ponderosa, fir, Maples, and Aspen trees all the time with my attempt of soil ammendment on existing mammoths. I run the airator over the root areas and poke the crap out of the roots and rake the plugs away and put it in my compost pile. Then I take store bagged compost (Glacier Gold) and rake it in over the grassy areas. Where the beds are under the trees I lay in thick compost after stabbing the heck out of it with my forked spade. I figure the more compost the worms have the deeper I can ammend the soil on even the largest of my mammoths. Please note I don't ammend under the natives unless I have a bed there. I only mulch to hold in water.
Take a look at Mexico. Sunset from the room.

My problem is i have a bunch of day lillies, i would like dig up i htink they look goofy, under this one tree and the mowing is a bit of a pain, she put up the plastic edging around the tree and that is a pain to mow around . Ripped one up and now i have to do the other edging on the other tree. Does this edging couse the roots to grow back into the tree? I realize we are getting off track and i should go tot the tree forum, but ......... then i get ot many opinions and i get confused and well " like i says before , i aint the smartest bear in the woods aye, i m just cute. "LOL
Hey steve nice of you to return to us commoners LOL how is Mexico? nice pic .
The garden was nice , but it ws alot of work to keep it giong and i dont' have the time that she had to do ,so we are down sizing it .Remember how i told you she had trees all in rows. it was like a big square in the front of the house and them 2 middle rows of trees in straight lines in the middle of the square. Her gardener quite !!!! she had to many trees. LOL
Those areas are know dug up and relocated in other areas. Our gazeboo we are going to sell and get Amish furniture for our deck s and front porch.
I have been digging up and spliting plants and giving them to anyone who wants them. LOL
Kenton great advice wll keep that in mind, i hope LOL( bear thing still)
sue

you can send me some daylilies. LOL

You know some days I feel this thread was named after me. Atleast some days that is what I feel like. LOL

Sue: I guess I didn't send the response. I said that I always knew you were beautiful sue even though I have never seen you. Your person is beautiful. I also said that the daylilies can be dug up but after a soaking to make it easier. Dont do all of them at the same time and the tree roots will not be affected severly. Small areas of root dammage it the tree root area is extensive.
Beware of the removal of the rings the tree is doomed if soil gets placed back against the trunk.
Lastly I went to Mexico on frequent flyer miles, stayed at the cheapest hotel on the beach, and ate at the restaurants that I menu shopped by walking past the places choosing the best price vs variety. I am a commoner too and proud to be one.

This message was edited Apr 3, 2006 10:36 PM

The best way to travel. Great picture.

Well at least you don't have to work in this forum. I'm a veterinarian and Dung, Doo Doo, and Dirt is what I smell, sight, focus, magnify, and dig in to diagnose. So I choose to feel this way you don't, IloveJesus99? Hee Hee

You are so bad.....ROTFL

Not I would not want to magnify it. My dog does enough I have to clean up. LOL

Steve, great picture, You both look so happy. Glad you had a good trip. How often do you go to Alaska, Mexico must have been very different and fun. Donna

I go to Alaska almost every month this year. I have contracted with a vet up in Kodiak for much of this year. I want to see more than Kodiak but right now that is all I have.
Sue I forgot in my comment above to use compost where you have dug up the daylilies. That will allow rapid soil ammendment in that area of root dammage. I always figure if you ruin someones day you need to cook them a good dinner. The trees will love the compost dinner.

"Oh Steve " , i bet you say that to alll the girls:) LOL
Ok so i gues i m doing this tree digging up right way ,whew:) I do a little at a time..
Just giving you a hard time steve LOL :)) nice pic too, lovely young couple you are .
The one thing that is nice not having a dog anymore is no more POOOP. But we miss him.:(
I think i will go take some soil from the garden and layer some on the trees.
How was the food i n mexico? did you see any bears in Alaska?? LOL
you know my cousin is a minister in 'Alaska and he came to my wedding and said a few words with the sermon and he was talking abut bears and we all looked at eachother wondering were is he going with this ???!!!! finaly he made his point :) LOL how marriage is alot like the wilderness of Alaska , the wilderness is much that of marriage you never know what kind of weather or beast wll acompany you this day but it is always beautiful in the end.
glad your back ,but i think we lost Kenton?
sue

Kenton is in Clematis battling the ideas of others. he is all of our sources of knowledge and that keeps him in demand.
My compost pile got turned yesterday and lots of steam. It has been cooking all winter. Is that normal for you other cold weather guys? It is about 3 to 4' deep and has reduced from about 5 to 6'. How much size do we expect in a developed pile to diminish? 30% or more.

Ahhh steve i m so jealous
i havve a hard time. This fall i m stocking up on my leaves and other stuff and will search out other stuff for helping to add piles over the winter. It is about 3 ft i might turn it. I m going to put it on blocks wit ha tray under it this spring and see what happens.
I just started it a few moths ago. Yes i know, "try that cadillac of a tumbler you got there sue!!!"
Steve will admit i have THE FEAR i have tumbler fear. I m a whimp. I will admit. My choice is ?
Stick to the old school way or go for the tumbler? i only have a lttle amount piled up so i don't think i have enough to go for both, afraied i will go for broke hahha. hmmm i m going to get film today and take pic to show you guys some of my dung and dirt.I had a soil sample to mail out but a cat got into our garage and pee'd and poo's in it!!!!!!!! aaarrrghghghh. ( is that to personal,LOL) or is it TMI ( to much info):))))) but it does have to do with dirt and do do
Kenton
thanks i like your idea of slow mulching, i will do that with a bit of compost and them some leaes in the fall( shredded) thanks for the imfo too, on a dirt and dung dooo dooo thread. I do not know to much abut trees . i will check inot the tree thread for more imfo for futrure referece:)
hmmm got to go Llama poop is calling my name
sue

I'll be back to blabber officiously during lunch break- class is in two minutes...
K

Kenton after reading your advice and others I got her cooking now..I did'nt have enough holes in the cans,plus I put lots of bloodmeal and old fertilizer in them...Is it OK to add the rabbit food now??Oh yeah I have alot of coffee grounds in there too..How often should it be turned?
Will it be to hot to add to my soil this Spring??I don't want to burn my plants up...Another thing what about my green bale of straw,will there be alot of weeds in there?I sure don't want that to happen...TIA..

Loretta...

Loretta:
Good to hear it's working! If you have a nice compost cooking, leave it be until it is done. The balance is there, don't mess with it. Just start collecting your things for the next one. Composts that are continually added to never finish, eh? I've learned this the hard way... (Consider your rabbit food and coffee grounds to be "Green material.")
If the composting process happens, it will not N-burn your plants. The nitrogen will be converted into a useful type that will not hurt plants, especially when top dressed. The greatest concern with fresh compost is that its richness (in excess) encourages some plants to grow like crazy but not bloom as much, like Morning Glory, Nasturtium, and Dahlia. If it gets hot, most seeds will roast and will not sprout. If they do, just introduce them to a hoe.
Turn it every other day up to a few times a day. The idea is to add oxygen and mix things well, but to leave it just long enough for the bacteria to sit down to dinner.

Sue: the drippings from composts (runnoff, "tea.") are amazing. If I could, I would make my compost piles only where I am going to plant things. I've noticed that the ground below a pile, even if not mixed into it, becomes very nice after a time. -In the driveway, darnit.

Steve; I've had coarse material piles go down 50%. I think the oxygen could get in quickly. Last winter, I kep myself sane by hot-composting all the time, getting the greates kick out of the snow melting and steaming on the piles... This winter it was African Violets. Some days (those fickle things) I think that I ought to compost the darn violets. But it's spring now, and all is good. I just planted a Banana.

Battling the ideas of Shirley the Clematis Queen? I wouldn't dare, I've learned too much from her!
Kenton

Ahh the green bale of straw! Loretta I lost you and forgot where you were. that green bale is hay: LOTS OF SEEDS OF WEEDS AND A BAD THING TO USE. Straw is always brown and leafless. That is why we use straw not hay. No seeds. as far as the rabbit stuff you don't need to compost that and can incorporate it into the soil right out of the source. as far as additives always group them in 2 areas: Carbon stuff: Leaves, plants, straw, fall trimmings, and any other plant material. Nitrogen stuff: Coffee grounds, Blood Meal, Grass clippings, manure. Now mix those in thin layers or if you are turning like sue can just mix it about 2/3 Carbon max to 1/3 Nitrogen minimum. If you can 1/2 and 1/2. I feel that you should compost on the ground to get the bacteria, worms, bugs, and other starter items to make it work faster. That is why I think sue doesn't get good barrel production. Maybe if she Dumped a small amount of worms, old compost, and soil things would get going. 1/2 gallon to a 55 gallon barrel would do. Forget the bacterial starters in the bag. You need it all. As far as turning it really varies. I think the more you turn the more you break down the stems and leaf fibers. Also the more oxygen gets in there to speed up decomposition. I turn mine when ever I'm ambitious or bored. I often do it at sunset cause my pile is looking west so it is a time of joy and work. Always the best combination in the garden.

Remeber the difference between thermophilic (managed, hot) composting and passive (slower, final, cool) worm composting. It is most effective to use one after the other. (worms second, or you'll toast them. I've done it.)

Again, this is where Steve and I are rebels: We think that in-ground composting is best. I theorize that more is captured and nutrients locked in when it is done by soil organisms. Plus, (and this has to be the best part) worms and such actually incorporate the compost directly into the soil structure, so that they compost and dirt are not just mixed, but married.

The reasons for thermophilic composting is speed and efficiency, if you need to get rid of a bunch of stuff in a hurry. Also, to destroy things like manure-born pathogens, plant pests, and seeds.

If the temperature in a thermophilic pile gets into 120-150 (or much higher) in temperature, seeds are gone. Otherwise, I strongly agree with Steve. (again, I've done it. Ever seen a Flower garden turn into a giant grassy lawn within a week?)
You can get thermophilic bacteria (those bacteria innoculant packs are silly) from anywhere, it is already in the manures.

I like your sytem, Steve. What kind of Oak is that?

I am into reading about forest fires and that is my Storm King Mountain Gamble oak. It is in honor of the bravery of the people on that mountain and the stupidity of the desk jocks that sent them there. I have traveled all over forest fire areas gathering morale mushroom and the devastation is unparalled in nature. Also I visit the next 2 years just to see the beauty of the recovery! What a site. Fires are so good to the forest just not the animals and people trapped.
Kenton I never get my piles hot here in Montana Maybe 120F + only. That is why my worms love it so much. I don't place any weed or seed if I can so whenever I get a start I transplant to 4" pot and see what I have grown. Many times it is perenials that I don't have to buy. I like cold composting. It takes a while but when you have 3 piles going you always have compost. Oh also you always have plant material here in my 1 1/2 acres of raised beds. LOL

About my green straw my friends daughter lives in northern MI.Amish country..I asked her to get me alfalfa,I should have told her the pellets,so now I'm stuck with a big bale of green hay,she says this is the alfalfa thats why it's green..What can I do with it???Plus she brought me horse manure..I need help so it don't start stinking in the hot summer..Do I bury it???I live in the City so I know that is frowned on,right now it does'nt smell...Sorry about all the questions but I have'nt a clue as what to do..TIA..

Loretta...

Steve ? if i dump in some goodies n my tumbler ,will the worms get dizzy? LOL:>()
Have either if you used a compost thermometer ? or just experience comes the natural way of looking at it.
sue

Sue I use a thermometer every day at work and my patients think there is something wrong with me. Ha Ha. No I only have early in the summer checked the temps. I know that it doesn't get hot cause weed seeds will survive a long time in my compost. I can burn here so all my weeds get burned. I also know that it doesn't get too hot cause it takes all summer to compost. (3months) or all winter and spring with the fall pile. Your worms are already dizzy cause all the corn mash in your compost. (alcohol)
OK Demstratt its time to learn farmer talk. Straw is stem and chaff left over from wheat, and oats after collection of grains (combining). Hay is grasses timothy, alfalfa, native and all others that is chopped or cut out in the field with all the weeds and seeds intact. Straw is seedless cause it is combined and all the seeds are removed with the combining both weed and wheat/oats. So the only suggestion is to give away the bale or place it in the bottom of you compost pile and layer it thin. then lay leaves over the bale of hay that has been Flaked. (Cut string and separated in thin layers.) That will compost well but seeds are always a possibility. The manure can be mixed in to the compost and let it cook. It will be great compost when it sets a while. jBesides manure never stinks it is the odor of earth. LOL

a proper done pile shoud'nt smell ? right Steve, any odor is a sign that something is wrong ?
corn mash ? ahahahaha :) There is a corn feild behind us.
sue

If it doesn't smell like cow s... you used the wrong fertilizer. Ha Ha. My compost doesn't stink it just smells when you turn it over. the smell of joyous flowers. I knew that your worms are hitting the methanol. I always thought that when the summer worm migration occurs it was due to corn liquor from the corn fields filling the soil. Later I learned that it was due to the low pressure systems of the thunderstorms. Both the frogs and the nightcrawlers would come out by the millions in Michigan.

Demstratt - to add (perhaps unnecessarily :) to Soferdig.

The reason it is called combining is because the machine that is used to harvest is called a combine. The emphasis is on the first sylable....COMbining as contrasted with comBINing ingredients in a recipe.

When Hay is havested - it is simply called haying - or baling hay if it goes into bales - or putting up hay if it goes into a high place - or drawing hay. It uses a mower and maybe a baler (a machine that makes bales) and as noted....scoops it all up...weeds, seeds and all.

I pass this on as a farm girl who lives exurban now....I find farm language is not always intuitive to those raised non-farm.

Combine harvester
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The combine harvester, or simply combine, is a machine that harvests, threshes, and cleans grain plants. The desired result is the seed (such as canola or flax) or grain (such as oats, wheat, or rye); a byproduct is loose straw, the remaining husk of the plant with all nutrients removed."

The wickipedia site also has a list of popular songs and movies that feature the combine....who ever knew?

HM

Ohhh you COMbined my heart and left it with out
the seed that fed my soul.
Then the comBINED loss of your love
and the moments with you.
Left me deeply distraught and lost in the BLUES.
( SUNG WITH SOME DUMB COUNTRY RYTHYM)

Soferdig....amazing. I haven't words. You have reached a level beyond. HM

I'm on awe. Do you sell records?
I use a thermometer. 166F is my record according to it. I think I broke it somehow, as it reads 50F earth as 30F. I guess that means my record hot compost is really 186F? I use it to see when it needs turning. I don't want to break my back unnecessarily ona giant compost hill. (I turn it when the heat is going down again.)
A proper pile will either not smell, or better: smell of mushrooms.

I am not that far from so many of those fires. (They make for some great sunsets) I had to stop following them when there was a problem that Firefigher Helicopters were denied permission to take buckets of water from a nearby lake (to save lives, mind you) on account that there was not an endangered fish survey done there and that they might scoop up a rare fish. Now, do you really want to play beaurocrat when a firefighter asks for water!?

You called it. But quite the opposite here. We have liberal use of helicopter water dumps. 6 yrs ago I was at a sail boat race on Flathead lake. It was sponsored by the brewers of Moose Drool and they were trying a new beer on our group called Scape Goat. Well it was during our big forest fire season and the whole place was burning. So severe restrictions were on for burning and our stupid host decided to light the dock he had stacked up in a 12' pile by pouring on gasoline. Well we all sobered but him and tried to put out the fire. We saw the firetrucks comming from the other side of the bay. Our host decided to block their entrance to his property by parking his car at the cliff down to the waterfront and hiding the keys. Well it wasn't long that the helis were called in to place a stregeic dump on the conflagration. Well 1/2 bucket would have done it but two buckets dumped on the whole group washed the whole party into the lake and surrounding woods. It was quite the fun beer party. I knew I had arrived in Montana when this happened.

What a story. A bender for the books. Did they fine the dipstick for that brilliant bonfire?

He is a powerful man here and they fined him only $500. No jail time. Good beer "Scape Goat" though. It was kind of thick (not dark) thick so we mixed it with "slow elk" and it became "Slow goat". My sailing buddy passed out and missed the whole thing. Brewery beer has more alchol when it doesn't have to be bottled. Oh the guy who is so powerful owns the brewrey. We got out butts kicked on our J-24 sailboat.

I'll take a cup of tea any day.

You obviously are not a german in origion. Ahhh the british that is the only reason we did not win the war. We slept at night da brits were sipping tea.

MY dad is a Scott and my mom is German LOl what does that say ??? ahahhahaha
I think i need to check on my worns, if i add tomatos will the worms make bloody marys? ahahahahha .Sue sooooo fuuunnyy.
I m going to get my soil tested Kenton I shoiuld have the results bakc by next week. I m sure i will need your help interpiting what it says LOL
sue

"well " my DH just gave me his old school books fromTHE OHIO STATE from some of his argronomy classes. Interesting and fun stuff to read.LOL.
So you boys might need to be asking me some soil questions ? LOL:)
Unfortunatly it doesn't have as many pics as i would like, big books need big pics.LOL for us ,"not to bright a bear in the wood types"
sue

well first of all my dad is Scot and my mom German. So we both drink cheap beer.LOL Any way there is no need to ask you any questions from a book from Ohio State Agronomy. We at Michigan State know that all the pages are blank or are they filled with cartoons. Hee Hee. OK what is the average Ph of soils in the aluvial plains of the southern Ohio River? Look what I got in the mountains today. I was trying to go over a pass that was unplowed and had to turn around but I caught this big one up slope and slid it right down into my truck!