Yeah, so I had a little outing with my digital camera today, So what? It was my birthday, after all. What is this? To me, it looked like juvenile foliage from a juniper, but the tree was pretty large. 20-30' or so. And the foliage wasn't all that painful to touch.
Scott
Happy, happy birthday. I have not a clue what that is. Treelover could probably tell you.
Can't make out any buds or stem characters from that angle. Give us a full frontal, along with reproductive structures.
Hey, ask an anatomical question, get an anatomical question.
Some needle-variation form of Abies concolor?
Looks like Yew (not you) Happy Birthday
Juniperus communis, a fairly long-leaved individual (I have seen them with leaves this long before or slightly longer, but not very often)
Resin
Thanks Revile,
I really suspected Juniper. Unfortunately, there were no cones or flowers to photograph. It was actually a very handsome little tree.
Would this likely be a cultivar of some sort?
Scott
Looks like J. rigida to me (aka needle or temple juniper), but I'll defer to the experts if they say nay.
Al
Al:
As in "straight from the horse's mouth"?
Are you calling our good friend from across the pond a nag?
Juniperus rigida is possible - the ones I've seen have had somewhat sparser foliage with longer internodes between the whorls of needles, but that could easily vary a bit. A quick look on google images gave some very similar pics. But there are also some very similar J. communis forms and cultivars around too, such as J. c. 'Oblonga Pendula'
Resin
VV - No sir. I have publicly called attention to Resin's expertise at GW bonsai forum and have great respect for his knowledge. I am currently growing on 2 or 3 variants of J rigida, and this photo looks very much like the foliage of the more compact of the three. It has about 3-4 mm internodes.
Al
This of course leads to these questions . . .
1. How does one tell J. communis from J. rigida?
2. Are they really different species?
The answer to Q.1 is far from clear; two authoritative keys I checked (in Farjon's new Cupressaceae book, and Adams' Junipers of the World) both gave the same answer:
Leaf stomatal band wider than the green margins: J. communis
Leaf stomatal band narrower than the green margins: J. rigida
Hard to judge on the above photo; it looks fairly wide, favouring J. communis if that criterion is correct
Yet the same criterion is commonly cited as one distinguishing feature between different subspecies / varieties of J. communis:
Leaf stomatal band wider than the green margins: J. communis subsp. alpina (syn. var. saxatilis)
Leaf stomatal band narrower than the green margins: J. communis subsp. communis
I certainly found this applied when comparing these two in the wild in Bulgaria, but it realistically means J. communis subsp. communis is the same as J. rigida in this character.
Adams also cites another difference:
Leaves 4-12mm long: J. communis
Leaves 12-25mm long: J. rigida
Yet the populations of native J. communis subsp. communis in southern Europe* have abundant plants with leaves well over 12mm long, frequently up to 25mm and exceptionally up to 27mm long; in Europe, the "4-12mm long" only applies to subsp. communis in northern Europe. Farjon recognises this and does not give leaf length as a distinction.
*From at least southwestern France east to Bulgaria; long-leaved plants also reported in the Caucasus
Pics of wild origin material J. communis subsp. communis from Bulgaria:
http://www.pinetum.org/cones/JUcommunisBG1.jpg
http://www.pinetum.org/cones/JUcommunisBG2.jpg
For comparison, wild origin material J. communis subsp. communis from northern Europe (Scotland)
http://www.pinetum.org/cones/JUcommunis3.jpg
And J. communis subsp. alpina from Bulgaria:
http://www.pinetum.org/cones/JUalpina2.jpg
(all pics to same scale)
My conclusion: on current knowledge, the two species (if that is what they are) can't be distinguished.
Comments and thoughts will be very welcome, please!
Resin
A tangent: what is the name of the beautiful cultivar or variety of J. rigida (or whatever it is) with the pendulous branches?
Another tangent: where can I get one, without spending my dogs' and cats' inheritance?
Guy S.
Hi Guido,
Shouldn't be too difficult to propagate it from cuttings
Rigid
Check www.Foxboroughnursery.com
Guy - I'd better quit while I'm ahead. The plant in your photo looks like Chameacyparis nootkatensis "Pendula". Which has recently been renamed something else - Callitropsis nootkatensis is what comes to mind as the new name. Ok. I'll stop if that's wrong, too. ;o)
Al
Lev, thanks for the link, but Foxborough doesn't list it.
Al, I took the photo near Kansas City. It does have a remarkably similar habit to what they now call Xanthocyparis nootkatensis 'Pendula', but up close and personal it's very different, and it takes much different habitat conditions.
Resin, I don't have convenient access to the plant in the photo, and I've heard it's difficult from cuttings anyway, at least for a juniper. Regardless, does anyone know the correct name of the weeping cultivar or variety, so I'll know what to ask for?
Guy S.
Try Juniper coxii (coffin juniper)
Hi Guy
Juniperus rigida 'Pendula'
There's a green form and a blue form, FYI
Dax
Guy:
Beaver Creek has it 5' tall in a 20" box.
Thanks, all. I was hoping for a mail-order-size plant for a few bucks. A 20-inch box probably is way more than I can afford, and also would be too big to be planted on the steep hillside where I want to place it. Maybe Roy has some smaller ones too, I should ask him. Anyway, it's good to know what it is and that it seems to be available out there somewhere. I've seen it listed only as J. rigida, without the "Pendula" added, and I figured that might be incomplete.
Lev, I'm not familiar with J. coxii and it's not in vanGelderen's encyclopedia. Is that a synonym for the same plant, and have you seen it listed that way in a catalog somewhere?
Degenerate, sorry to be hijacking your thread. (No, not really!)
Guy S.
It was in a book (Garden Plants) by Michael Wright....it says "v drooping, like weeping willow: rich sage-green dense foliage." Then next it says J. rigida (needle or temple juniper) so I don't know whether it is one in the same.
Hi Guy,
Juniperus recurva var. coxii
Resin
Guy of Gisborne,
You pirate! Ah, nevermind. I can't stay mad at you, you big lug.
Anyway, my question got answered a long time ago, so this thread--as far as I'm concerned--was free for the snagging. Like puting an old lawn mower out at the curb for the garbage man. It's rusted through and won't start, but if someone wants to put it in his trunk and take it away, Best wishes.
Now, I'll need a few minutes before I can come up with the perfect joke regarding the "coffin" juniper.
Scott
Well it's the Juniper that hangs down and then rests in peace.
Ah-hah! Juniperus recurva! We can't grow that here, but it has the same general habit as the J. rigida 'Pendula'. Both are beautiful plants.
Now, about that coughin' juniper . . . maybe it drank too much gin last night?
Guy S.
Up here in Minnesota, Rice Creek Gardens propagates their most exquisite weeping rigida. What I usually see for sale is 1 or 2 year cuttings. If you go to their web site, the picture they have is of it about 20 years ago, and really not very good. But holy Buddha, now this tree is so imposingly beautiful that I see why they were sited at temples. Unlike many, this one is completely hardy up here, and is very pendulous despite our cold climate.
I don't think they mail order anymore, but there is always Leftwood's Speedy Post. I can keep you informed, and I'll certainly get some pics of that most excellent tree.
Rick
Leftwould's Speedy Post for two one- or two-year trees is a deal -- let me know what I owe you! And I promised last January to send several Agave weberi up there soon (once the worst freezing is over) for y'all to share around, and perhaps a Celtis tenuifolia or two. I was going to send them to Jason and ask him to distribute them, or I can send them straight to you, let me know. Anything else you would like to see in the package?
Lefty, we probably should conduct this business away from the forum -- please contact me via our web site www.StarhillForest.com
Guy S.
Hey Leftwood,
Can I, perhaps, be one to recieve from the Leftwood Mighty Post? You know, as long as you are already sending one to Guy... When you get around to it, I'd love to know what one would cost.
Scott
Gotchya both. It'll be another month yet, for sure.
Lofty Lefty, can I send you anything beyond simple reimbursement? It will be time to mail those agaves to Minnesota soon.
Guy S.
