coffee tree

Hi, is the kentucky coffee tree hardy in
wisconsin zone 4? did people really make
coffee by roasting the seeds?thanks

Hi Jim, Dirr lists Gymnocladus dioica as Zone 4-8 and I did see it in Montreal Botanical garden which is USDA Zone 4. I also found a listing of "Native Trees of Canada" and it is listed as native into Ontario with a comment that it has been grown successfully in Ottawa (brrrrrr). In the notes section of the listing it states that "seeds cannot be recommended as a substitute for coffee. The name refers to the appearance of the seed rather than to its taste which is bitter and unpleasant".

It's a really nice tree. I wish it grew better here.

HI Jim:

Look for the most northerly provenance, if you want success. A Gymnocladus dioicus originating in KY, though authentic, may not have the genes to survive Rhinelander. You are way up there!

There are grower sources in northern IL and southern WI which should suit your needs, or maybe over in MN where they SAY it gets cold once in a while.

If Leftwood, Maackia, and treelover3 are thawed out yet, I bet they've got some good source info.

Jim, while you're waiting for our northern contingent to check in, I will offer something else for thought. I don't know that anyone ever really used the beans to brew coffee, and Growin's comment seems logical. But it's likely that Native Americans, as well as Ice-Age mammals, ate the gooey filling in the pods. Or maybe the seeds were used for jewelry, or money, or slingshot ammo -- who knows!

Anywho, coffeetrees frequently show up in isolated groves in association with archaeological sites. So it seems credible to think that they were carried around back then for some reason.

Guy S.

Jim,
In the Fox Valley there are some, not really planted a lot, but they do ok.
Al

Hi Jim,
Bailey Nurseries propagates Coffeetrees and you should be able to find a coffeetree grown by Bailey's at a local nursery.

Bailey is located in St. Paul, MN so any trees propagated will be hardy in zone 4a and possibly even zone 3b, in a protected spot.

Here is a link to their web site and you might even be able to find someone that Bailey sells plants to via the web site.

http://www.baileynurseries.com/

Good luck,
Mike

Jim, I know Hanson's buy from Baileys. Maybe Brendt can bring what you need in with his spring order. Ken

Jim, I know Hanson's buy from Baileys. Maybe Brendt can bring what you need in with his spring order. Ken

Oops, I was getting mesmerized...might be affectation from exposure to the cold last week.

We're due for a thaw any day now; gotta have Hamamelis!

Jim,
Also Outback Nursery in Hastings, MN (along the Mississippi) would have northern provenance stock. Growing seed from a promising tree is quite easy and quick too. Needs scarifying.

I have two in my yard. One of unknown heritage from a nursery, and one grown from seed from a local tree doing well (but still of unknown heritage). The latter grows much better as there is always the tip kill on the former, but I also think the difference in form is partly due to one being male and the other female.

Writings from back in the 1870's or 90's speak of wild KCT in Minnesota just north of Mankato, and in Nicollet County. Whether these were brought by Indians is not known. I have found some "wild" ones north of Mankato, but none that I saw were larger than 8-10" dbh. The status is definitely questionable.

Most KCT's here in the Minneapolis area tip kill about 1-2 inches "normally" and just keep on going. When I was young, I thought that that was just what they did, as I had never, ever seen one without such growth pattern. But now I do know better.

So does anyone actually know: is that green gelatinous goo in the pods edible?

I've got one located on west side of house that is very exposed to the elements. It was purchased locally, but provenance unknown. I planted it about five years ago and it suffered pretty significant dieback the first couple of years. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I think it's still vulnerable to major dieback when that brutal winter eventually shows up. It has put on decent growth the last couple of years and no die back issues to speak of. My feeling is that these are probably a z4b tree, and a more protected site would be good if you've got it to spare. Isn't Rhinelander z3? Oh, and what the heck is a hodag?

In the FWIW category, my Yellowwood (Cladrastis kentukea), which was purchased from the same nursery as the Coffee Tree, has never suffered any dieback. It's not in quite as an exposed location as the KCT, but it's hardly in a protected site either. Two of my very favorite trees.

Bob,
Is your Yellowwood from Rochester, MN and is it a 'Perkin's Pink' or the straight species? I, too, purchased a coffeetree and yellowwood from the nursery in Rochester.

I purchased a 'Perkin's Pink' yellowwood and I am hoping that the tree does OK where I've planted it.

I am hedging my bets, because I have the 'Perkin's Pink' yellowwood, a seedling oak (most likely a cross between bur oak and my Crimson Spire™ oak) and some coffeetree rootstock sprouts all growing in the same area (I removed a Prairie Titan™ coffeetree because of dieback and now I'm getting root sprouts).

The oak has corky stems and VERY bur-oak-like leaves, but there are no oaks in the area except for my Crimson Spire™ so that is where the acorn had to have come from. The tree does turn a nice yellow in the fall. There are many, many bur oaks approx. a mile away. I'm surprised that the bur oak characteristics are so pronounced when the bur oak was the pollen parent and the Crimson Spire™ was the seed parent.

If none of the other two trees survive very well, I will leave the oak where it is and let it grow to maturity. I know the oak will have absolutely no hardiness issues. The oak is approx. 3.5' tall after 2 years.

Rick,
Could I get a couple of seeds from your female coffeetree this coming fall? If the coffeetree I planted has significant dieback issues I will remove it and plant a seed-grown tree in its place. The coffeetree that is there now is approx. 9' tall. I hope it does OK.
Mike

Mike,
There are still some beans hanging on the tree, and I think I save ones that fell this past fall for a friend that uses them in dried arrangements. I'll check the garage.

But ya know, it might even be better to get seed from the really old ones at the Arb that nobody seems to care about. The one I am thinking about would be pollenated by the ones that are planted on top of the highest hill in the Arb. Are those all Stately Manor's (or whtever that cv is)? Mine would be pollenated by the not so hardy male that I have. There is not another KCT for at least a half mile, if not miles around.

Rick

Hi Mike,

I've got both the straight species and Perkins Pink, with the latter purchased from Sargent's down in Rochester. The seedling Cladrastis and KCT were bought at Gertens. My wife gently persuaded me to move the Perkins last summr from the choice spot I initially planted it. I tried to get her to envision it in flower a few years down the road, but to no avail. I even lied and said it flowered reliably every year. The things we do for trees.

No, no! The things we do for marriage and love!

The goo in KCT seed pods is apparently sweet and edible, but the beans are toxic. The old folklore that these were roasted and used for coffee is doubtful.

Also, since KCT resprouts from stumps and also suckers, I would not rule out the young trees north of Mankato as indiginous. Something could have destroyed the parent trees but the trees you found could be coming from the same roots.

Scott

Hey Rick, please grab some KCT seeds for me from the really old ones at the arb. I want to plant around 10 of these trees up in Menominee County, Michigan. I'm going to use them as ornamentals on that property. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind 2-3 more here.

Maackia, please share your northern source of straight species cladrastis with me. I want a few more of those for here as well as up in Michigan.

These two species are definitely two of my all time favorites.

Good thought, Scott, but doubtful. I did inspect the tree bases, and they are on a fairly steep hill leading down to the river bottom. Soil doesn't build up to cover old roots, in fact quite the opposite. I really haven't done much searching nearby for more trees, and that's what I really should do.

Apparently edible goo doesn't do it for me. I'll let someone else consume some copious amounts first before I try it. Do we have any adventurous factfinders here?

I'll volunteer to be the Lab Rat. If its edible, I'll try it.

Maakia, How old is your Cladastrus, and has it ever bloomed ? Mine is 10 years old this year , hasn't suffered any dieback and looks healthy, but has never bloomed. My Kentucky Coffee Tree is three years old, no dieback so far, but this winter has been the most weird weatherwise so far for it.

treelover, I planted Quercus macrocarpa, Burr Oak, 2002 and it is the fastest growing of my oaks.I bought Quercus concordia Golden English Oak, in 2003, and it had one acorn 2004, at less than 24" tall, but that winter the darn cottontail rabbits, really stripped the limbs and bark. never even entered my mind that the little rascals would do that. It has two live limbs, very small only about 10" but is still alive. This past winter made a wire cage to keep the bunnies away.

I got all of the above trees from Forest Farm.

DonnaS

Yes, I like ForestFarm but Great Lakes Nursery is good too.

EQ, I purchased the Yellowwood from a large retail nursery located in St Paul (Gerten's and I have no idea of the seed source for this tree.

Ruth, it was purchased as container stock in '99 , and had actually flowered at the nursery. It also flowered nicely the 2nd year after planting. It's been a vigourous grower over the past five years, but hasn't flowered in that time. When it does, you can bet I'll let y'all know about it. I was in the DC area at the end of last May and these trees were flowering like gangbusters at the National Zoo. Beautiful site. Ling ling and Sing sing could have been making whoopie and I would have missed it because I was so glued to these trees.

Got it-
www.gertens.com
651.450.1501

Located in St. Paul MN but... they don't do mail order and they aren't carrying the American Yellowwood any longer.

They received the little bit of Cladrastis kentukea stock they had a few years ago from Bailey's located in Newport.
http://www.baileynurseries.com/
651.459.9744 ask for customer service and they can tell you which retailer carries what you want.
No one was able to share any information with me about where they got their seed from.

They have several retailers in and around Kenosha but they can't find where they had ordered Yellowwood-
Swartz Nursery
Mariani Nursery
Breezy Hill

I'm going to try to find a few for myself.

Lauren,
When the snow melts, I should be able to finds some KCT seed from the old arb tree for you.

Will the be for taste testing or can I germinate them ;)

Ish!!!! I could send the fermented goo just for you. You know I wouldn't do it just for anyone. Maybe this summer . . . . . .

Lauren,
You can order Yellowwood seed from The Fragrant Path. Ed lists both the straight species and seed from the 'Perkin's Pink' yellowwood. Seed from the pink-flowering yellowwood may or may not produce a pink-flowering tree and it could easily be a decade or more before you would know the flower color of the tree.

I have germinated the seed and it is very easy.

Ed now has his seed list on-line. Here is the link:

http://www.fragrantpathseeds.com/

I have purchased a lot of seed from Ed and I have always been very happy with the speed of delivery and germination rates.
Mike

Fermented goo just for me! Awww shucks. Thanks Leftwood!

Thanks for the link treelover. I tried to order on line and couldn't. His "buy now" button isn't working. Maybe I'll just call. I found a few other things I'd like at his site.

I germinated the seed a few years ago and had no problems. I set aside 3 for me and gave away the rest of the seedlings. One problem, I lost mine to deer when the cones blew off of them in high winds. If that isn't a bummer, I don't know what is.

I will call him.
Look what I found that I want-
Clematis virginiana VIRGIN’S BOWER
Wisteria frutescens AMERICAN WISTERIA
Amsonia hubrichtii ARKANSAS BLUESTAR
Asclepias incarnata alba WHITE SWAMP MILKWEED
Centaurea americana BASKET FLOWER
Callicarpa dichotoma albifrutus WHITE BEAUTYBERRY
Chasmanthium latifolium SPIKE GRASS
Napaea dioica GLADE MALLOW
Talinum calycinum FAMEFLOWER
Cephalanthus occidentalis BUTTON-BUSH
Cercis canadensis WHITEBUD
Chionanthus virginicus FRINGETREE
Cladrastis lutea YELLOW WOOD
Rhus aromatica FRAGRANT SUMAC
Rosa carolina alba WHITE PASTURE ROSE

I had been looking for Spike Grass.

If anyone else is ordering from him, you might want to be careful and plug his binomial into the search engine here-
http://plants.usda.gov/index.html

Hi Rick,
Where are the coffeetrees that you are talking about, at the arboretum? I only know about the trees in the parking lot and the trees planted outside of the old Snyder building (including 'Stately Manor'). Maybe I'll give you a call to see where they are located? I might go out there today to see if I can find any seed. I'll pick up extras for Lauren, too, if I can find any.
Mike

Mike, are you planning on going to the RU in Wisconsin this coming June? If you are, can you get Rick to join you? Hey, thanks in advance for any KCT seed you might be able to dig out of the snow.

Hi Lauren,
I was planning on attending the RU, but something else has come up, that I can't get out of, so I won't be able to attend. Bummer. Oh well, there's always next year (hopefully).
Mike

What could have possibly come up that is more important that the Upper Midwest RU? Are you planning a funeral for somebody close and dear this far out? Just teasing with you but very sorry to hear you won't be able to go.

Any chance of coming down to join up with a "few" women to go to the Chicago Botanic Gardens on Saturday and Morton Arb on Sunday the end of May? I think that was the weekend of the 20th? You could be our fearless weeder er uh fearless leader. My husband is camping that weekend or he'd go with (convenient, eh?) so if it is too much estrogen for you, I'd understand.

I like the story behind the KCT seed pod goo--it's a good one to tell kids, even if it is speculative. The goo(and seeds?) is poisonous to most beasts. The story goes that mastodons were the primary consumers of the KCT seedpods, based on observations of the eating habits of elephants today. They are the only ones who could consume the seed pods and avoid its toxic principle(s). Once mastodons died out, KCT seed scarification had to rely on ma nature, and her streams and rocks. So, a tree well adapted to growing in dry uplands is now found rarely only near moving water where water and rock can beat down the thick seedcoat. When I have my kids grind holes in the seed coats, I tell them they are doing the work of the mastodon, and it makes them only slightly less pissed about their work!

Soooo, you're saying it's probably not a good idea for me to volunteer to be a Lab Rat and eat the goo? I can live with dietary restrictions such as this.

Those KCT seeds are like slippery marbles. They shoot all over the kitchen when I try to scarify them. Ping pong zing zang and kerplunk as they hit the floor after richocheting around a little bit.

Use those big toenail clippers--I just nip a small section out and soak them.

Equil--on another subject--I have a bunch of Taxodium that are starting to germinate. The seeds are from the 35 year old tree in my front yard. Also, John says you desire skunk cabbage. I didn't collect any this year, but I can get unlimited seed this summer if you so desire. They are easy to germinate. I went by the native stand a couple weeks ago and they were just popping out--the warm weather this week should get them fully up.

So EQ: No goo for you! (Says the goo nazi.) Come back, one year (when it's really fermented). Yum

Hi Kennel,

My understanding was that the goo was very sweet and edible, so the mastadons ate that and swallowed the seeds whole because they are bitter and toxic. Then the mastadon ambled about the countryside doing what mastadons do and in the process left scarified, fertilized "plantings" in their wake. Seems to me that (maybe) Dirr or somebody wrote about eating the goo when they were kids.

Scott

I've eaten the goo. Not bad. A litlte sticky, but no messier than eating pawpaws or persimmons, and obviously not fatal.
Guy S.

Hey Kevin, I never thought of using dog toenail clippers on KCT seed. I've got the large pair of nippers too and I'm sure I can probably get a seed in there. Is that what you have been using all along?

Thanks for the offer of seed. I'd definitely like to have some Dawn Redwood seed as well as Skunk Cabbage seed. I did receive some Skunk Cabbage root beauties as a gift this past Saturday but the ground is too frozen to get them in right now so they're out in my garage in a nice bowl of sphagnum peat. I plan on planting them as soon as I can get a mushy area in which to do so.

I've been poking around and learned a few things about Skunk Cabbage which I found interesting-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symplocarpus_foetidus
"Eastern Skunk Cabbages have contractile roots which contract after growing into the earth. This pulls the stem of the plant deeper into the mud, so that the plant in effect grows downward, not upward. Each year, the plant grows deeper into the earth, so that older plants are practically impossible to dig up." It is because of this that it is believed this species can live for hundreds of years. The man who gifted them to me stated, "These plants have the ability to melt snow with chemical heat so the flowers are not harmed by this snow we had. As soon as the snow starts melting from the top, the hole they have melted from the bottom appears and the flowers are open for business." I also found a reference to them producing an odor similar to rotting meat which attracts insects attracted to carrion. They are evidently pollinated by these insects and the heat they produce helps ensure the survival of these insects. Well, now that we all know more than we ever wanted to know about Symplocarpus foetidus...

Ahhh, so that's why Guy is slightly touched, he's been hitting the goo.