Heart Throb, Carmen, Karl's Star, Blue Star Morning Glories

I'm trying to thin out my morning glory collection and I can't find any information on these Morning Glories:

Heart Throb
Carmen
Karl's Star

Hirt's says Carmen is a dark purple, nearly black. But it sounds a lot like Grandpa Ott's.

Does anyone know if these morning glories go by another name? Or do you have pictures of any of them?

Also, I have several Blue Star seeds, but I'm wondering how impressive that one is. I have Flying Saucers, with all the streaks, which I love. The pictures of Blue Star pale in comparison. So I'm wondering if I want to waste my time and space on it?

I just don't have enough room to grow my entire collection, so I thought I'd pick out the ones I like best and trade off the rest. Any input?

Hello,
I think that 'Heart Throb' is an Ipomoea coccinea and 'Karl's Star' I've not heard of...
Here are some links to pictures of some Ipomoea purpureas and my experience of the names and original colors...

Carmen another name for the earlier Kniola type,although the 'Carmen' is usually represented on the packets as looking to be more of a sort of chocolate-purple like this
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/98515/

Kniola is a very dark purple with a dark purple star
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/7397/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=39819

Star of Yelta medium purple-blue limb with a clearly visible purple-blue or dark blue star with some fuchia coloration arond the throat area
The first example here is what I think is the most 'typey' for the Star of Yelta for what is posted here at Daves
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=371327
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/40315/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1653218
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1683119
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1690869
A darker Grandpa Ott's next to a lighter blue 'purp'
notice amount of fuschia around the throat and color of the star
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1708075

very 'typey' for granpa Ott's alot of fuchia around the throat area with a dark fuchia star on a purple limb
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1794010

Please be aware that all of these Ipomoea purpureas can readily cross fertilize,so alot of confusion regarding correct names(and other original features) coupled with various degrees of overlapping features is what is most often encountered...


The Flying Saucers is very nice by itself,but interplanting with other Ipomoea tricolor cultivars can add a pleasing aesthetic contrast that makes the Flying Saucers stand out more...I've enjoyed all of the Ipomoea tricolors in various combinations...
The smaller flowered species like Ipomoea coccinea,Ipomoea hederifolia,Ipomoea quamoclit,Ipomoea lobata,Ipomoea purpurea and others may seem to be 'too small' for some people when planted alone,but when very closely interplanted with larger flowered types,these smaller flowers can provide a very pleasing and visually interesting effect by acting to accent the larger flowers by both size and color contrast...the fernlike foliage per se of the Ipomoea quamoclit can add a softening charm...so,you may find that some smaller red,orange,yellow,blue or white flowers surrounding the larger ones to produce an accentuated display...

TTY,...
Ron




This message was edited Feb 7, 2006 3:03 PM

Wow, Ron, thanks for all that info. The differences between the purpureas is quite interesting. They are all so much alike. I think I'll keep the Carmen and not bother with the others.

I. coccinea doesn't impress me. So I think I'll add it to my trade list. I have I. quamoclit and I. multifida and I love both of those. I think that's enough of the small flowered ones. They have more exotic foliage than coccinea.

I'll keep Karl's Star and see what it becomes. The seeds are tan, like Blue Star, and I'm wondering if it's the same. We'll see I guess.

Thank you so much, Ron, for your abundance of info.

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/98515/
Ron, this link that you posted above that is called Kniola or Carmen, can you tell me what name I should use that will get me closest to the main pic. I love the way that flower looks, and I got to find one of those. Also, would you mind giving your opinion on how to avoid crossing up the hybrids when growing more than one vine(or 20 as the case may be lol) I have three acres to work with, and I want to be able to get good seeds from all of the vines I plant, so I am wondering if there are tips on that, suchas how much distance between them, or do barriers like fences or bushes help to keep them separated. I'm new at this level of growing, so I really need some information. Thanks

Hi ansonfan,

The link I added above is a link to the general entry for Ipomoea purpurea Tall MG as can be seen written in blue and clicked onto from the upper left of the page...the actual flower may look different than the photo due to different lighting effects...I chose that photo because it looked similar to what is portrayed on the packets of the 'Carmen' that I've seen...

Regarding insuring(!) pure cultivars and avoiding cross pollination here is the straight answer


1) Do proper hand pollination

2) cover the blooms and label the pods

The other alternative is to grow different species that will not cross fertilize and hope that there are no other plants close enough to you,from perhaps a neighbor or wild stray plants to enable undesireable cross fertilization.

The other methods you mentioned may be of some help in reducing cross pollination,but they are not 'foolproof' and the huge quantity of overlapping features and loss of pure strains is abundantly apparent due to lack of 'foolproof' controls...

I happen to like mixed breeds and other types of 'mutts',but I also enjoy purebreeds and if you want highly typey purebreeds,then strict controls must be implimented or you won't have any purebreeds...the strict controls I mentioned are usually not feasible for large growing areas,and that is one of the reasons that it is very difficult to find very 'typey' Ipomoea purpureas...because only those people who are able to grow relatively small amounts with strict controls can sustain them...mass production pretty much insures that the type will be lost...
So,keeping in mind what I just mentioned in the paragraph above,I perceive that the preservation and production of some of the nice interesting types are the resultant work of a truly 'handmade'(!) art and craft...

There are,e.g.,hundreds of companies offerring "Scarlett O'Hara" and not a single solitary one of them or anyone on e-bay has or can guarentee solid red throats...I have SOH with the correct(!) old fashioned color and SOLID (down to the very bottom of the tube) velvety throats that has been kept pure for many decades by strict controls...(No I am not offerring these for general trade)...


There will be no shortage of people who will tout the stable 'Open Pollinated' point of view and there is some truth to that point of view,but I do not believe that the stable part of it will remain stable for long if grown out with and cross fertilized with types that are genetically very close enough to make the 'stable' types once again unstable and 'different'...

I think it is helpful to keep in mind that features that have been picked up by cross fertilization may not show up for several generations and this aspect can be a large factor in the alteration of a particular 'type'...


This isn't what people 'want' to hear,but I'm just sharing my opinion.....

I wish you the Best in your MG experiences and adventures...

TTY,...

Ron






This message was edited Feb 9, 2006 7:35 AM

Thank you for the explanation Ron. It did tell me what I want to know. If I want to make sure that I have the best chance of getting true seeds, I should actually grow a vine inside a protected area (like screen), and hand pollinate. Now if I can only figure out how to do that lol. But if I may ask one more question; is there a list somewhere that will tell me which cultivars will cross polinate?
Thank you
George

Hi George,

Here is a link to a thread where I offered some suggestions on how to do hand pollination

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/533754/

here are 2 links to closeup of plant parts and some brief descriptions
The male part of the flower is collectively called the androecium and consists of the stamen.
The stamen is divided into two parts, the anther is the part on the top that produces and releases the pollen.
The anther rests on top of a stalk called the filament
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/Introduction/htmls/20.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/Introduction/htmls/21.html

The main female parts collectively called the gynoecium are the ovary and pistil.

The top of the pistil is called the stigma,which receives the pollen
The stigma is on top of a stalk called the style.
The ovary is at the very bottom,inside is where the ovules are,and the ovules if fertilized,develop into seeds



Plants in the Morning Glory family that are the same species,regardless of the cultivar,if grown together open pollinated have a good chance of cross fertilizing...I won't go into details of aspects such as citing particular distances,particular 'barriers' or various types of diversionary plantings of alternate nectar and pollen plantings(that can sometimes serve to divert pollinators) because anything short of an area that can completely prevent cross pollination is likely to allow cross pollination,and there is no more exacting technique short of good hand pollination technique...

I hope ButterflyChaser doesn't mind us continuing this thread with the current subject matter...or you can start a new thread of questions posed to the MG community yourself...

If you have more questions,ask away...

TTY,...
Ron

This message was edited Feb 11, 2006 1:03 AM

Ron, I'm learning as you're posting, so go right ahead. I love the information! I actually haven't done any breeding yet, but now that my gardens are getting so full, I think that's the next step. I follow your posts and store away the info. Glad you're out there to answer all our questions. Thank you!!

ME TOO : )
I appreciate your taking time to address these questions Ron. I don't personally mind the cross pollination that much, but I know if I am going to offer seeds of a particular cultivar that I will have to be responsible enough to protect the seeds from being pollinated down. I was thinking that if I could just grow one vine of a particular type up against a wall and just use some type of screen to protect it from insects - hand pollinate it - then I can offer pure seeds. On the other hand, if the vines can be pruned to a smaller size, my very small greenhouse might be another option. Yes ~ I'm thinking out loud lol.

ansonfan

To reply to
" use some type of screen to protect it from insects"

The use of a wire screen to prevent pollinators like bumblebees and honeybees can help to prevent unintended cross pollinations,although there are insects that are much smaller like very small flies,ants and thrips(which usually eat pollen,but can actually pollinate some flowers)...these very small insects would still pass through screens that are large enough to allow them to get through,and so passage of very small insects would be prevented by only the very smallest mesh screens...there are some fabrics that allow enough needed sunlight to nourish the plant,while disallowing the passage of any insects...I just thought I would mention this aspect...

Best of Luck(!)...

Ron - I read the thread and its very interesting, I will have to do a little self-educating before I can take full advantage of your inspired knowledge. I want to ask you about cutting back the MG vine. I have never done this before (don't know why, just didn't make sense for some reason lol) and I am wondering if an MG can be trained to stay in a given area. If I can keep these vines inside the greenhouse, I can have a lot more control over whose pollinatin who. The screen thing may work, but considering that I may have several vines that I want to work with, it would not be cost effective to build a lot of screen huts that have to be put up in the winter. One more question and I promise I won't ask any more today (at least not before sunset) If a vine cross pollinates with another cultivar, will it necessarily, or absolutely, make a difference in the way the next generation looks? Thanks

ansonfan - MG vines can be cut back,but the amount of cutting back that a plant can take without severe adverse effects can vary alot with the species and even an individual plant....Which species were you thinking about cutting back(?)...The plants can usually be trained to stay in an area by directing or re-directing the growing tips back onto the plant or onto whatever support you have set up for them...

Regarding your question about characteristics of a crossing definitely being noticeable in the first generation,this can vary with the species and the cultivar,e.g., some of the more common Ipomoea purpureas and Ipomoea nils may or may not show up different characteristics that result from 'crossings' in the first generation...there are alot of factors like dominant and recessive genes that can get shuffled around in a way that is difficult to predict...there are also genes that are present in many types that have a natural sort of 'cycle' that produces certain very observable changes that are 'built in' to the genetic structure and these may not be able to be removed completely or isolated...


Check out this linik and scroll down to the picture and click onto it so it enlarges for one example of what I'm referring to...

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/13/7016



There really is no substitute for actually getting to know the different cultivars and what they should look like...

TTY,...

Ron

This message was edited Feb 11, 2006 8:09 AM

Thanks Ron; I'm studying on this and I'll get back to you.