Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I am reading/"listening" along here, and I am wondering how much in this thread comes from personal observations versus reading lots of articles on the subject of invasives.
I have read a lot of Equilibrium's very interesting posts, but how about Darwin and Dodecatheon, may I please direct a question to you both? Can you tell me how many hours during the growing season are you spending not just in your backyard but truly outside walking through rural and not artificially landscaped areas? Looking around in undisturbed woods, meadows, swamps, ponds and such?
This is simply a question, I honestly do not expect to get a dissertation. :-)
This way I am perhaps better able to form some sort of mental picture here.

edited to say:
defining undisturbed: not dug over, not groomed, not bulldozed, allowed to grow as is for at least 10 years.

This message was edited Feb 8, 2006 11:36 AM

Define undisturbed.

Can we talk about lack of disturbance causing ecosystem degradation?

That probably should be new thread, huh?

Fair question, and important.

I was working on a masters in conservation biology at SUNY ESF until recently, I got interested in invasives and their spread in a course I took, three credit hours of "Ecology and Management of Invasive Species," and focused on invasions in Australia and Hawaii.. though to be fair I was working on amphibian and fungal invasive and am not a plant ecologist. Two of my close friends are, however, and two summers ago I spent a good amount of time hiking fenlands (maybe once or twice a week for 3-4 hours of counting and IDing fen species, not consistently all summer but I enjoy it so I was invited often) for his dissertation. I took three 4-credit classes (field/lab classes) which involved field trips every other week into some of the more undisturbed areas around here. The classes were bryophyte ecology, mycology, and herpetology. Aside from that I try to take my dog for a substantial hike every week in warmer seasons, and I do take her into areas of habitat with varying disturbance levels and native plant diversity. My yard backs on a hillside (not pristine environment by any means.. but I have a pileated woodpecker) with huge black walnuts that have been there close to a century.. if not longer.. and which are now being threatened by virginia creeper planted by people who owned my house between 12 and 15 years ago sometime.

There's a lot to be said for book knowledge and a lot to be said for actual observations. But please don't be fooled into a sense of security (and I'm not saying you are) by observing places in your environment which seem to be doing well and free of invasives.. and thinking the problem is being exaggerated. I grew up on Long Island.. the 'forests' there are a sad shadow of native habitat.. I don't know of a single place I can go on Long Island that retains a native habitat without any invasives.. While in Central NY I think that may be more plausible.. though I don't have the facts to back that up ;).

I'm a restoration volunteer at both Moraine Hills State Park and Glacial Park in McHenry, IL. I have been putting in 10/hrs a month at Moraine for the last 5 years, and 10/hrs monthly at Glacial for the last 3 months. I also do extensive hiking at both places, probably an additional 10 hours a month at each.

My first involvement with prairie/woodland/wetland restoration was probably the West Chicago Prairie, around 15-20 years ago.

A good example of invasive plants can be seen where I live in upstate NY. Garlic mustard, specifically. It's growing, for instance, all along the creek that borders the back of my yard. It's a non-native that was originally brought here as a pot herb by the Colonists, which shows how long it has been here (and they must have been desperate, because it tastes pretty bad). But it's not an invasive because it's foreign. It's an invasive because the white-tailed deer won't eat it. They would rather eat native plants, and that's exactly what they do. Their population is gigantic, larger than it has ever been in the history of North America. They are the largest habitat destroyer outside of human beings. So is the problem garlic mustard, a furrin invasive? Is it that simple? NO. If there were no garlic mustard, there would still be enormous losses of native woodland plants in upstate NY because of the deer, and the deer population is out of control because of the loss of predators, and the predators are lost because of our killing them and destroying their habitat, so it all comes back to us, not the garlic mustard.

And the example of garlic mustard shows how the invasive question is much more complex than has been portrayed here. Crying about how we need to restrict which seeds people can buy is not going to do a thing to solve it. All that's going to do is put more money in the pockets of the hybridizers of bedding plant seeds, like the world really needs another petunia. The problem is not the garlic mustard at all. It has been here all this time and has not taken over the world. The problem is the destruction of predators like wolves that controlled the deer, the destruction of woodlands by human beings who cut them all down and turned them into paper and lumber, and on and on.

There is no easy answer to this. When I see people trying to make something this complex into an Us vs. Them thing, it gives me the creeps. As far as I am concerned, this Us vs. Them thing is at the root of many of our problems in our country. It isn't thinking. It's reacting. And personally I just don't want to read about it, especially when it concerns plants native or otherwise, which I do indeed care about. So if you want to cry about those nasty, dirty, disease-carrying furriners that are just ruining our country, please just go to a forum specifically devoted to that.

THE ART OF GIVING
by: Kent Nerburn

Letters to My Son:

"Remember to be gentle with yourself and others. We are all children of chance, and none can say why some fields will blossom and others lay brown beneath the August sun. Care for those around you. Look past your differences. Their dreams are no less than yours, their choices in life no more easily made. And give. Give in any way you can, of whatever you posesss. To give is to love. To withold is to wither. Care less for your harvest than how it is shared, and your life will have meaning and your heart will have peace."

Welcome to the forums lafko06. I like what you wrote very much. From time to time I run into e-mails that are sent to me that have wonderful content such as that which you posted above.

Thank you for the welcome equilib. You're right, it sure does sound like one of those e-mails you get, lol. Actually, I was making myself a cup of tea and that was on the tea box. DG has been a great place and I've learned a lot since joining a month ago. So many great people and it's honestly the 2nd best investment I've made since I can remember. The first place winners are my kids. :)

Megan

Hey Megan, I've learned a lot too. I also was sent an incredible amount of white flowering seed for a moon garden I've been working on. The seed shared with me was seed that I was having difficulty locating for sale. To top it off, I was offered some skunk cabbage seedlings and that's a plant I've been looking to purchase for a while. The greatest goodies were those that were intangible and it would appear you figured that out already. You will like it here more and more as every day goes by.

I think you have simplified why garlic mustard is invasive. Deer is not the sole reason. The plant has other characteristics that makes it opportunistic over native plants, the overpopulation of deer aggravate the situation; but are not the only reason why it has taken the opportunity to outcompete the natives.

The single greatest issue for me in controlling the garlic mustard would be the seed bank. I'm winning, I think.

Yes, garlic mustard is a really prolific son of a gun, but without the deer eating all the natives and helping to spread its seeds on its fur, it would have a much harder time of it. I go up in the woods around here a lot, and plenty of areas have no garlic mustard or other invasives but they still haven't got much in the way of natives because the deer eat so much. I keep thinking if only I could get to like the taste of garlic mustard, I could easily get rid of all the stuff that is growing by the creek by freezing it to eat in winter. Unfortunately, I have to agree with the deer in terms of their rejection of the taste of garlic mustard. The only good thing about garlic mustard is that it is done pretty quick in the season. I am trying to come up with natives that I can plant in that area that will give the garlic mustard a hard time. So far, only the very non-native orange oriental poppy has out-competed it, and the deer won't eat that either.

Yep, I've got garlic mustard too. It has a short life span inthe spring but then it starts growing again for the next season as well.. or it does here.

Paracelsus I'm interested in knowing your rationale for your stance.. but I know you've chosen your opinion and at this point nothing I can say is going to break it. That's fine. You don't want to be told what you can't plant, and you don't want to read about anything but native plants in this forum. In general, that is the attitude that will ensure the eventual application of a white list. Because thankfully people making those decisions don't poll Dave's Garden to see what's best for gardeners. They ask agencies that employ researchers that can show pages of numbers detailing what species are declining and what to do to help. WE as gardeners (not seperating anyone here) either have to accept that there is more responsibility to gardening than just planting and growing any plant we want or the system we have in place will regulate us. It'll start happening when the endangered species list starts growing, like when purple loosestrife turns most of the Upstate NY wetlands into purple monocultures. I'll bet when lady's tresses orchids lose their habitats that NY will finally ban purple loosestrife from being sold in the state or shipped into the state.

This is already common practice for plants that are vectors to fungal pathogens with multiple stage life cycles, it is the reason you cannot ship currants and gooseberries into New Jersey.. to protect the pine barrens from a fungus that lives part of its life on species in the currant family. I would plan on this happening with a lot of garden plants in the near future. Unless you care to help start a massive campaign informing gardeners of the need putting just a bit more care into planting.

Blue fescue grass is something that garlic mustard cannot grow through.

And please quit with your insults, Paracelsus. I can do that, too. If you want to impugn my motives or whatever...please send me an email...I'd happily battle you there. Here's my personal e-mail: ahughes798@ameritech.net

I've been involved with restoration ecology for about 25 years.

The problem with GM is not that deer won't eat it. Deer are a very minor part of the GM problem. The problem is that there are few native plants that can out compete it. The reason this plant is a problem is that IT DOESN'T BELONG HERE. The other problem is that it has no natural insect predator in this country, much like purple loosestrife. So, in restoring a savannah...we seed blue fescue grass. The GM will not grow through it. Then we burn off the fescue. Which kills the fescue completely. Fescue is wimpy, GM is wimpier. Repeat the process. GM is not such a problem after that.

Or, alternately...there are imported bugs that eat the roots of garlic mustard, and only garlic mustard. Or, there's always glyphosate used very early or late in the growing season.

>>So if you want to cry about those nasty, dirty, disease-carrying furriners that are just ruining our country, please just go to a forum specifically devoted to that. <<<<

Huh? What ARE you talking about? Speaking of diseases ...why don't you do some reading on Sudden Oak Death, and how it got here, and where it came from. For most people…it would prove quite enlightening. Or Dutch Elm Disease? Or the Pine beetle? Or the Emerald Ash Borer? Or Chestnut Blight? Or how about that Japanese Long Horned Beetle? I guess you think these things are all great news for native vascular plants? Change is always a good thing! Right!

Did you know that the destruction of chestnut groves might have been instrumental in the extinction of the Passenger Pigeon?

You carp and carp about how complex nature is, then you say something utterly simplistic like the above. Anthropomorphizing non-native and invasive plants is kind of silly.


This message was edited Feb 8, 2006 10:31 PM

"So if you want to cry about those nasty, dirty, disease-carrying furriners that are just ruining our country, please just go to a forum specifically devoted to that. "

Please go to a forum specifically devoted to methinks the lady dost protest too much.

Huh? What ARE you talking about? I'm talking about PLANTS. Speaking of diseases ...why don't you do some reading on Sudden Oak Death, and how it got here, and where it came from. For most people…it would prove quite enlightening. Or Dutch Elm Disease? Or the Pine Bark beetle? Or the Emerald Ash Borer? Or Chestnut Blight? Or how about that Japanese Long Horned Beetle? I guess you think these things are all great news for native vascular plants? Change is always a good thing! Right!

Did you know that the destruction of chestnut groves might have been instrumental in the extinction of the Passenger Pigeon?

You carp and carp about how complex nature is, then you say something utterly simplistic like the above. Anthropomorphizing non-native and invasive plants is kind of silly.


This message was edited Feb 8, 2006 10:39 PM

This message was edited Feb 8, 2006 10:46 PM

Hi Exhortation, dolabriform, paraclete, Darshan, jucundity, others:

I've been dodging the flamethrowing above. I hope that the excitement and hyperbole are temporary and comparing/contrasting restarts the conversation. Keeping the personalization of the argument to a minimum elevates the debate (somewhere in there I wanted to add rational, but that can be perceived as individually offensive).

I agree with the premise of the complexity of the issue.

I also agree with the simplicity of the origin of problems from "what doesn't belong here," though that must lead to further complexities of finding solutions, because someone's ox is going to get gored.

I bet even paracelsus and dodecatheon would hold hands and sing a stanza of Kumbaya on the belief: It shouldn't be the indigenous plants.

Sounds like white-tailed deer population moderation is a concern in NY. I don't see where that precludes the belief that introduction of invasive non-indigenous plants ought to be diminished or stopped. I agree absolutely, what humans do to change the land they inhabit has led to some really bad conditions. I believe that there is incremental change away from those worst habits of the past (OK, at least minimal recognition that things can't go on exactly as before -- it's never fast enough change for those who want it the way it was). This behavior should reflect positively for indigenous plant communities.

No matter what we change in our behaviors, though, won't stop or slow down the behavior of invasive non-indigenous plants. If white-tail deer populations were reduced to a static level appropriate for regeneration of the indigenous plant community, those plants would still be suppressed or eliminated by invasives (like garlic mustard, Amur honeysuckle, pick your local thug) precisely because the invasives are not affected by any community-balancing pathogens.

So, paracelsus, your animal argument supports your forensic opponents. The sides are not so far apart. Time for a second stanza. I'll join the growing chorus circle this time. Anyone?

Oh my, you've been in the "E" section of your dictionary again! You silly man! Ummm, might I suggest that we debar discussing hooved rats for a bit. I think I'll sit this round out and go on line to pick some nice iris rhizomes to sink in the ground next fall. I got a thang for iris.

Exhortation signing off but willing to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with everyone.... to include V V who keeps coming up with all these really cute E names for me ;)

"You don't want to be told what you can't plant, and you don't want to read about anything but native plants in this forum. In general, that is the attitude that will ensure the eventual application of a white list. Because thankfully people making those decisions don't poll Dave's Garden to see what's best for gardeners."

The reason why the white list was stopped the last time around was precisely because of the protests of lifelong gardeners like me and small seed sellers like Richter's and J.L. Hudson. But according to you, we don't know anything and the USDA, which is concerned not with native plants but with agriculture and the US seed industry, does. It couldn't be that the USDA might care more for the concerns of bedding plant hybridizers than it does for gardeners and mom-and-pop seed sellers. The white list has nothing to do with natives or invasives. It has to do with propping up the US hybridized seed trade. It is about protectionism of an industry, not of an ecosystem.

There are non-native plants that are not invasive, and there are native plants that are. Invasiveness has nothing to do with whether something is native or not. It is a separate issue. For instance:

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/invasives/photos/index.asp?Type=native&SF=Common

If you do a search on "invasive native plants," you will find varous examples, such as native horsetails, Joe Pye weed, creeping cinquefoil, etc. Plants are invasive not because of where they come from but because of the situation they are in, normally one where human beings have disturbed the environment, for instance, by creating lawns, pastures, and monoculture farming. So the problem is not the plant but human behavior. And that's what needs to change. Of course, that's a lot more challenging than haranguing people on forums.

I haven't insulted anyone here. Disagreeing is not insulting, although in the Us-vs-Them world, I suppose disagreement can be taken that way. If you like it when everyone thinks the same, I hear Iran is great that way. In the US, though, we are still allowed to disagree all we want.

I spite of some of the harshness, the folks on this thread really aren't all that far apart. Just don't dig your heels in and decide you are opponents to the bitter end. It seems to me that ya'll are on the same side.

First, the white list will continue to be proposed until it passes simply because MOST gardeners REFUSE to research what they're planting (and not plant the things that shaw invasiveness in their area). If you don't want to believe it, just wait! The laws in the US are really clear about endangered species and it will take a lot of effort change those laws, it will be easier to protect countless species by knocking out the rights of people causing problems.. like nurseries that refuse to take known invasives off their shelves.. and a white list because we have plenty of non-native thugs already and since no one who imports new plants is running invasiveness experiments.. that's the only way to keep new invasions at a minimum.You may be right, maybe our native lands will be destroyed long before the government can ratify these measures... but I know you're not hoping for that solution.

Second, I'm going to probably quiet down for a little while. There's a big problem here having to do with a whole lot of words we're using without standard definitions. The largest part of that problem is the word invasive vs. native. By definition a native plant is what? Because my definition of native plant is a plant that grows in a specific place without human involvement, or grew there historically before human removal of whatever sort. And invasive is a species displaced from its native habitat which is able to establish and spread in a particular new environment. So how do you get an invasive native plant? Unless you have changed its native habitat SO MUCH that the species is freed of all competition/predation/other population checks (Wolf removal in NY... Hello deer! But we still don't call deer invasive). The other problem with defining invasives is they are COMPLETELY locally dependent.. In the end the way to make lists of what can and can't be planted is probably going to have to involve community (town, city) based committees creating lists and probably state oversight of those to make sure they're actually doing what they're meant to do. But I'm not a politician and I don't know what's going to work.. but one thing I do know, members of this forum.. if you say you care about native plants you'd better also learn to care about invasives and invasive management. It's not going away, it's getting worse.

Here's some really good reading material, well written (pleasant read) and really insightful.
The Song of the Dodo, by David Quammen
Nature Out Of Place - Biological Invasions in the Global Age, by Jason Van Driesche, Roy Van Driesche

Like ViburnumValley, I have been dodging the flamethrowing. But now "my ox is being gored".

Wisconsin has a long tradition in conservation leadership (Aldo Leopold, Gaylord Nelson, etc). The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (WDNR) tries to follow in this tradition. Referencing them out of context to support a position that they would not take is not appropriate. All that's necessary to get a more balanced view is to click on a few more links on the left. For example:

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/invasives/action_plants.htm

They clearly advocate controlling ecologically invasive species. They also advocate (and enforce) laws, if necessary, to accomplish this control.

Your ox is being gored because I cited a Wisconsin state site that lists native species that are invasive??? You're personally offended by that??? Good grief.

It really is about self-righteousness here. So I will leave you all to the shrieking threads consumed with that self-righteousness about other people planting invasives. I will leave you to the Know-Nothing approach to non-natives and the exceedingly naive ideas about the role of the USDA and the white list. Don't ever think that this invasives situation might be more complicated than Us vs. Them, natives vs. furriners. Your ideas should never be challenged under any circumstances by anyone. That's just an insult to you and a horrible outrage and a personal attack. And whenever you run into anyone who disagrees with you, feel free to call them "stupid."

Enjoy yourselves, but realize that you don't win people over to your ideas by acting this way. All you do is make yourselves - and your cause - look bad. You have certainly gone a long way towards convincing me that the whole invasives argument is reactionary in all senses of that word. If I have anything to post about my native hedge project, I will do it in the perennials or annuals forums.

This message was edited Feb 9, 2006 1:10 PM

paracelsus- you are interchanging the term "aggressive" with "invasive" and they are not the same thing.... double check that site you posted...

no one bans aggressive plants because they are easy to control.

nomenclature and symantics often lead to more disagreements than the actual topic of conversation...

About the time paracelsus figures out how to turn lead into gold, will be about the time everyone agrees on how to manage invasive species.

I've lost track of why this became an argument as opposed to a discussion.. but certainly the word self-righteousness I remember being part of it. I'm sorry paracelsus if there are a great many people who are concerned with both growing native plants and helping them survive outside of gardens. I realize you feel like "we" have taken over your forum. It certainly shouldn't be that way. The original article that was posted should have conveyed at least a thought to the fact that maybe spreading invasive plant species in retaliation for anything is a bad idea. If your opinion differs from that.. Then I hope you retire your trowel and gloves because I personally don't think we need any more close-minded gardeners who refuse to admit that the problem needs a solution. I hope you may try, in all parts of life, stop every so often and make sure what you're branding as self righteous (and thus, disregarding) might actually be right.

One thing I will agree with paracelsus is.. No matter how frustrated I am that a neighbor of mine is vehemently expressing what I view as a shortsighted and uninformed opinion, trying to berate him isn't going to change his opinion nor is it really going to help change the opinions of others reading this thread. Though I wish we could all see that this cause is much too important to rally against simply because there are disagreements with people who are standing up for it.

Having read down through most of these posts, I find you all painting yourselves into corners as to why this must appear in the Indigenous Plants Forum. If you are indeed intent on educating gardeners, then posting this here is pretty much preaching to the choir. Also, at this point in time, off topic, as there is now an Invasive Plants forum. If you really want to educate, then there are many other forums that would have been better as far as getting this out to the gardeners who might not know. I think I can safely say that most people who grow and study natives are well aware of the problems faced.

Now, please, play nice and take this to the new forum.

No one is getting any message across here.

Do any of you really want to face the consequence that people stop listening to you at all just so you can keep flogging this poor and most definitely deceased nag? Do you really need to be seen to be right all the time?

DG for me has been a place for education, nurture and positive encouragement with a great emphasis on enthusiasm and friendliness. You've all got valid points here on this thread, could we please leave it at that by burying this foetid equine and find some new live horses to nurture?

Ahh Kathleen you posted before I did!

I never did quite understand why people take a lighted candle into a well lit room, it often causes other occupants to request the candle be put out or taken somewhere it might be useful.

Lighting a candle in the darkness ..... now thats not so original but it certainly takes courage and is a good idea!

" The original article that was posted should have conveyed at least a thought to the fact that maybe spreading invasive plant species in retaliation for anything is a bad idea. "

Exactly. And how is everbody so sure I was calling anybody stupid? I didn't mention who or WHAT was stupid. Not one stinking word.

Some people also seem to think that if you mention anything about invasive plants, you're trying to tell them what they can and cannot plant. I think people should plant what they want. When it spreads to natural areas....we all get the bill, unfortunately.

That's great, except that if we all have to pay for it then there's no incentive for any gardener to be cautious about what he or she is doing. And.. for a lot of this the cost isn't measured in currency.

This thread reminds me of chewing rubber bands.

;-)

hmm, yes, and about half of the people who posted to this are no longer on DG.

Chewing rubber bands- that comment made me laugh. I've still got Mrs. Kravitz running around with her little pink pad of HO Association nasty grams and she is ready and willing to use them on fron't doors but my Tall Bearded Iris are all doing just fine... much to her chagrin.

GASP!

She wants to do away with your Iris? I'd bring her a
big bouquet on May Day, LOL.

Mrs. Kravitz, that is so funny. When I first read your
post further above, I cracked up. Homeowners association?
Egads. They would die if they saw my place. We have
tires cut like flowers filled with plants. Wouldn't she fall over
and faint seeing one of those in your yard? ;-)

Karen Marie

lol
No HO would want my place in their vicinity, either...:-) Of course, I wouldn't want to be in their organization, either...unless it was to regulate the installation of gigantic lights that point to my place or block the stars.

I planted about 100 more TB iris in her honor last year. Couldn't help myself. Mrs. Kravitz brings out the Iris lover in me. She's got a good pair of binoculars. I have no doubt she spotted me planting them around a birdbath and adding more along the sidewalk to my front door last year. This woman has nothing better to do with her time and in spring before the trees leaf out, she's got a clear shot with her super sleuth binoculars to see my TB Iris. Oh oh oh, Maxine gave me some Siberian Iris and I planted those too. Oh oh oh, I participated in a co-op run by Pixydish last year and ordered quite a few hostas. Bet her husband had to pull out the fainting couch for her the day I planted those.

Mrs. Kravitz left a little pink note on my door one year because I (gasp) had an old lonely "not long for this world" horse on a lead gardening with me a few weekends in a row when it wasn't too hot out for him. The woman is totally off her rocker. I ignored her because I couldn't find anything in the bylaws stating I couldn't garden with a horse in tow. She walks her exotic dog on a leash so what's so wrong with walking an exotic horse on a leash. I once considered letting my kid get a pet rooster for a 4H project. Sheesh, we're all up at the crack of dawn anyway so why shouldn't she join us?

Tires in a landscape design? Those would probably be a double pink sticky on my front door and she's most assuredly be hyperventilating as she scribbled out her infraction. She's a double bagger in my book anyway. Hmmm, no mention of half sunk in the ground bathtubs in our bylaws that I can think of. You know the kind where you put the concete or plastic Madonna and child in them? Those kind. Not that I would want one but I might.... ;) just for her. Remember, I live where you can have plastic pink flamingos and a clothes line as long as you have it in your back yard out of view from the curb.

Time for me to go check the UMW Round Up thread to make sure BigCityAl stuck my name on that nice exotic 'Blue Wave' Hydrangea. I feel a smelling salt episode in the making.

All joking aside, please know that overall I've planted about 99 natives to every 1 exotic I plant. I really do prefer natives but I do like my exotics. They sort of grow on ya if you know what I mean.

Could you ask Mrs. Kravitz what type of binoculars she uses? Mine don't have a very good zoom on them and I can't see the birds thru them very well.......ask her before she's done with her fainting and all ;)

You ask her... I'll point out her house to you this coming summer. I don't know what brand they are but her pair bends in the middle if that helps. I've watched her with them and she can adjust them. The pair we had didn't do that and neither does the set we currently have. The binoculars we had were from a garage sale and they were around 30, maybe even 40 years old or older. They went camping and took them with and somehow our pair went home with somebody else and we ended up going home with a different pair. We now have a pair that is newer but no where near as good as the old one we had. I was thinking that if we ever got another pair, I wanted to get a pair like hers. Makes sense. More than one person can use it because it's adjustable. The newer ones are a lot smaller too which means they aren't as heavy. Better optics too. I've looked through some of the newer pairs at Bass Pro Shops and you can see really well with them.

I've never seen a pair that doesn't bend in the middle. My husband adjusts (bends them) them to see different than I do. Mine are small and are Bushnell's, but I got them for free. So I guess they didn't give away the better ones.

You'll point her house out this summer or this spring? When do my plants arrive on your doorstep?

Equil,

You have Dmail.

:-) KM

It's been a while and something just popped up in my e-mail that reminded me of comments made by DarwinESF right about the time this thread was moved to Invasive Species,

It also reminded me of comments made by ViburnumValley,


Looks as if DarwinEFS hit it on the head which is most unfortunate as I'm personally not a proponent of more government regulation. It would appear some very big oxes got gored. Looks as if the white lists are going to be making a comeback only this time they're coming back in through a back door (Q-37) with projected economic cost savings attached to them that will be hard to ignore.

New Study Examines System for Reducing Import of Invasive Plants into the U.S.
Implementing Australian Weed Risk Assessment Program in the United States
Would Save Billions and Reduce Process Time

"The invasive plant screening approach used by the U.S. government pales in comparison to other more effective and readily-available systems used by countries such as Australia and New Zealand, according to a new Nature Conservancy and University of Florida study published today."

http://www.nature.org/initiatives/invasivespecies/press/press3378.html

excerpt: