info on Nyssa Sylvatica

Hello everyone,

I tried doing a search to see if this tree has been discussed, but it told me the search engine was off line. Sorry if this is redundant.
We have small yard, 60' by 132'. I currenty have a crimson maple in the front yard. We moved into this house a year ago and the maple does absolutely nothing for me. It isn't a large tree, so it should come out somewhat easily. Plus it leans....staking the tree didn't help. While searching for a new tree, I remembered the black gum tree, Nyssa Sylvatica. My question is....does anyone have this tree growing on a small lot. I read somewhere, somebody saying that it can "sprout" up all over the yard. Not by suckering, but by reseeding itself. Tell me your experience with it. Good or bad. If you know of another native tree that would suit this small lot, feel free to give suggestions. I want this tree for wildlife value also. In this same area, last summer I planted 4 spice bushs (Lindera benzoin), 3 New Jersey's Tea's, 2 viburnams (not sure which ones), 1 bottlebrush buckeye (Aesculus parviflora) and 1 serviceberry (Amelanchier canadensis).

Thanks,

Terry

Hi Terri -- whereabouts are you located here in Illinois? I've not seen Nyssa volunteer much here, and obviously if you have a male tree it won't seed at all. It's a very beautiful, slow growing, long lived tree that can be tough to transplant unless it was grown by a good nursery using the proper techniques to develop a fibrous root system. Properly grown, it has a strong central leader and a fairly narrow crown (for the first century or two). It makes a splendid long-term investment in your property.

Guy S.

I have a few of these trees in a semi-wooded area of my property. I very seldom see seedlings. They have beautiful red fall color. Like Guy said, don't expect it to be a fast growing tree. They tolerate almost full shade or full sun.With the long tap root they have, it should be well anchored. For some reason mine defoliated sometime around early september. By the time it leafed back out it was time for fall. I still havn't figured that out. I would still recommend it if you are a patient person. It is not the "cookie cutter" tree that everybody in the neighborhood has.

Exactly what I'm looking for! I don't want the cookie cutter tree....I've always been the rebel and not liked following the so called rules. How slow growing is it? I've bought a lot of bareroot plants that seem to overtake the larger potted ones I've planted. The neighbor has a maple (not sure what kind) and "my" tree will be about 30 ft away from his. Typically, no, I'm not a patient person, but this tree just sounds awesome.

What do you 2 see as it's mature height? Or is it so slow growing, I wouldn't have to worry about it?

Guy, I'm in northern IL, Bureau County. There's a nursery outside of Princeton...Hornbaker's....and they have the tree listed as one that they sell. At least they had it last year.

Thanks so much for the info!

Terry

So you're up there near the Hennepin Canal -- it should do fine there, but be sure they are using a northern seed source (provenance). It can grow 18" per year under very favorable circumstances if the root system was developed properly. In addition, you might want to pick it out in early fall when the color has developed so you can get a brilliant one instead of an "average" one, but they all are nice.

Eventually it will grow as large as a medium-sized oak tree -- and it can live for several centuries. If you have my latest tree book (Native Trees for North American Landscapes), the tree shown on page 280 is about 100-120 years old and the semi-weeping one shown on page 282 is about 40 years old, give or take.

Guy S.

One of mine is about 15ft and the other is about 40ft. I would say the growth rate would be similar to white oak.

Wait a minute Guy! Your book? Where and how much? (if that's allowed anyway). Yes, I'm near the Hennepin Canal. Since I don't have the book, how big are they? My dad has 16 acres that we're trying to clear out invasives and too many in a cluster, like cedars. Me thinks you'd be great to come up and i.d. these trees for us! You know how some things just stick in your head and some things don't? I just can't i.d. most trees for anything!

My parents have a second home down in AR. They have white oaks there, but they were there when they bought the place about 6 yrs ago. As slow growing as any oak?

The problem with buying in the fall, if I bought it from Hornbaker's, is that most of the "good" trees are gone by the time fall rolls around. They only order in, in the spring, and that's it. And of course there's the "I want it NOW" thing :)

Terry

Terry, I don't know what's allowed either, so I'll contact you via D-mail about it.

Guy S.

Well, I can tell you that I personally own this book Terry-
http://www.timberpress.com/books/isbn.cfm/0-88192-607-8
I think you will really like it. I buy them to donate for raffles and silent auctions. Timber Press is always quality and the authors they promote are the best of the best.

If you have a digital camera and are in a position to post photos, chances are good me, and quite a few other people here, can get you an id on some of those ickies you are trying to remove. I get to work with a lot of ickies. I even picked up a new nickname... again... Buckthorn Queen.

I don't know if you would be interested but... my girlfriend is going to drive me to The Possibility Place in Monee IL this February. We can't stay but we wanted to stop in and drop off a hundred surveying flags for Guy who just happens to be the speaker that day. Anyway, you would be welcome to drive down with us. I don't know where you are but we are in the general area of Gurnee Mills and 6 Flags Great America.

And no Guy... I didn't forget but couldn't connect up with you in Minnesota. Aside from that, I am a crappy driver.

"Aside from that, I am a crappy driver."
-------------
Terry, if you can come, rest assured that Equil said her girlfriend is doing the driving!!!
Hee-hee-hee!

Hope to see you all there. I don't even have the final schedule for the seminar yet, but I guess Equil is in on the ground floor.

Guy S.

I'm not sure where Monee is! Gurnee Mills and 6 Flags are up in NE IL? I'm more in NW IL, right off I-80. Give me more info and I'll if it's a "possibility".....lol......I do believe I have that place bookmarked, just not real sure where it is. Thanks for the link and I'll also check my D-mail!

Terry

Hi all,
Yes, buy Guy's book.

I own two of his books (and I got them autographed while he was here) and they are worth every penny. If you love trees, Guy's books will be a staple that you will go back to, time and time again. (sorry, his first book is out-of-print so you may be lucky and find it for sale on eBay or in a used bookstore - IF you're lucky.

Equil,
I did get to meet Guy while he was here in MN. I wasn't able to hear him speak, but I attended a get-together that a gardening friend put together. (Guy, I didn't forget about sending you the picture. I'll send you a smaller version via email and then mail you a copy of the pic., on a disc, so you don't have to wait a week for the pic to download. If your address isn't in the book, please send it to me via D-mail. The pic is still in my camera [it's winter and I don't move very fast in the cold weather].)

terryr,
Nyssa is a very nice tree. There are a few growing at the MN Landscape Arboretum and, one tree, in particular, has just spectacular red fall color (and it's female, too).
Mike

Can I ask what is probably a dumb question? Yes? O.k. then...:) I thought all of the Nyssa's had fab fall color. I don't have Guy's book YET, but I do have William Cullina's book on Native Trees, shrubs and woody vines (? I'm going off memory here). How do you know a male from a female? Do I need 2 to get berries?

Terry

Nyssas, like a lot of native trees, are generally available as seedlings, not named cultivars. As such, the genetic variability means some will have better fall color than others. From about ten tupelos that I have grown from seed, about three had outstanding color, three had good color, and the rest were okay.

Yes, you need both male and female plants in close proximity in order to produce fruit on female plants. Seeds grown from the fruit have about equal probability of becoming male or female trees.

Scott

Terrier: Klehm's Song Sparrow Nursery up your way offers several selections of Nyssa sylvatica which should be hardy for you. With clonal plants, you know exactly what to expect in behavior.

Seedlings are fine; just a bit of the luck of the draw in genetics as to what you'll get when they grow up. Unless you select them when they are in fall color, you just can't bank on it. At least, with a blackgum seedling, you'll have an excellent uncommon tree no matter what color it turns.

A very good friend of mine selected, named, and released Nyssa sylvatica Red Rage TM. A good bit of the red rage it has produced is from nurserymen and purchasers who expected consistent red fall color, but often get rather good orange and yellow mixed. Still a good/great plant, just not what the advertising suggests. It DOES have the cleanest foliage of any blackgum I've experienced (essentially no leaf spot in summers) and is extremely glossy and shiny dark green in leaf all summer. I have it and would recommend it as a superior reliable performer.

This picture is a bit dark (sorry) that shows two unnamed blackgums growing in Creason Park, outside my office in Louisville in November 2005. Note the rounded habit, and the dark red fall color on the left one and the pleasant bright orange/yellows of the right one.

John, where abouts is Klehm's Song Sparrow Nursery? I'm not familiar with the name, but that really doesn't mean much. Since the nursery closest to me is closed, I can't find out where the plants come from until spring. I suppose I could e-mail them...that's a thought. I will look up the Nyssa sylvatica Red Rage TM. What does the TM stand for? Thanks for the picture, I want the one on the left please :o) Is it too big to dig up and bring me along with the elderberries?? Pretty please??

Terry (aka Terrier)

Terry,
The TM or ™ means the plant is trademarked.

VV,
I hope it's OK that I answered? (:o)
Mike

Tl3/Mike: Better than answering, upgrade my cyberskills so that I can post the little TM symbol instead of the one that "shouts" at you.

Terrier/Wild Raisin: Song Sparrow does mailorder, which you may or may not wish to engage in. Their mailing address is in Avalon, WI and their website is

http://www.songsparrow.com

they have an 800 number and I'm sure that they have an email address for information.

Good morning, VV,
To get the various symbols, press the alt-key, on your keyboard, and a set of 4 numbers. If you search google for "alt key codes" or "alt key symbols" you should find a complete list of the numbers needed to produce these symbols.

Here are the numbers for the symbols that I use most frequently:

Hold down the alt key and then press these 4 numbers on the numeric key pad to get the symbol. Be sure your "num lock" is on. You CANNOT access these symbols using the number-keys at the top of the keyboard. The leading zero is required.

0176 = ° (degrees symbol for °F or °C)
0153 = ™
0174 = ®
0169 = ©
0188 = ¼
0189 = ½
0190 = ¾
0163 = £ (you can "wow" Resin with this symbol, on GardenWeb. [Pounds Sterling symbol]) (:o)
0162 = ¢
0128 = € (Euro currency)

After you have done the Google search, check out quite a few of the search results pages since some are better than others and very few of the pages list all of the symbols.
Good luck,
Mike

alt0169 = ©
H€y! It w©rks!
I thought it wou£dn't work on the f°rum.
Wr®ng again!
(My ½¢)

Guy S.™

(:o)

Are you saying I look like a prune John?? And you think it's your knee that hurts! lol.....
Thank you for the link, I'll check it out. I don't mind mail order depending on what or availabilty. If it's a little whip, will it catch up fast like I hear most do? Did I answer my own question? Or wait, do I want to mail order from them? Your message is a little cryptic :)

Mike, thank you. TM=trademark. Who would have ever guessed??? I'll just crawl back under my rock now.........

And Guy....thanks for making me laugh.......

Terry (Terrier, who does not look like a prune!)

Terry,
Song Sparrow nursery sends out some of THE best and largest plants I have ever received via mail order. Their packing is the best in the business. You may need a crowbar to get into the box to get the plants out! (:o)
Mike

Thanks Mike! That is exactly what I needed to hear! I still have my pick ax from our stay in TN, I bet I could put it to use opening the box :o) I wondered what I'd need it for back up here.....lol...

Terry

Terrier ('cause that separates you from Terry in TN, and phonetically that's what terryr looks/sounds like): Wild Raisin is because that was the only viburnum that you could remember the Latin name for, so it must be fate. Don't fight it.

OK, I'll try the University of Mike.

Repeating, I would recommend a very dark green clean foliaged though unreliably red fall-colored blackgum, Nyssa sylvatica Red Rage™ selected by Michael Hayman of Louisville, KY.

How about that? And on a 32°F (0°C) day to boot!

Mike, I reckon I'll have to send you 1¢ (0.00564745£ and/or 0.00823866€) for your thoughts, and ½ that to Guy since sometimes he's a ½wit.

You've created a monster. I wonder if I'll find a web page with listings for the alt key for €xp°n€nt¢.

This message was edited Jan 22, 2006 1:22 PM

VV,
You crack me up! (:o) You, too, Guy!
Mike


This message was edited Jan 22, 2006 3:52 PM

So I'm NOT prune-y. Let's clarify John :o)

I will look to see what the selection is out at my local nursery. I've got a few others I can look for it at....I don't want to wait till fall. 32 degrees? You're lucky. I've got 25. And snow. I love snow!

But the whip question?? If I buy one that's only 2 ft tall, will it catch up in record time?

OT question....when I hit preview and change or fix spelling/grammar, why when I hit send, why does it send the one not fixed?

Terry (or whatever other name John wants to give me :o)

I think you need to preview the post again, after you have corrected any spelling, etc., and then hit send. Previewing the post prior to sending, will get your corrected post attached to the thread.
Just guessing here...
Mike™®©

Yup. I did Mike. But it didn't seem to work. So now you all know just how bad I can spell and forget to add words here and there.....

Terry (who's not trade marked as Mike above :o)

Oh you gotta love this-