Have you grown 'Black Beauty' elderberry (sambucus nigra)?

The catalog pics of this plant are just gorgeous, and I'm wondering if the plant lives up to that. Bluestone perennials offers shrubs in 4" pots, and the couple I bought this spring grew very well, so that's where I'm considering getting them ($8.95 ea). I also love the golden, lace leaved variety that I've only seen offered by Wayside for a hefty price. Any experience shared on this plant would be great to; anywhere else to get it. how it performs, etc.
Thanks, Neal

Although I am totally unimpressed with Wayside, I do love Bluestone and I order quite a bit from them. I have never grown the Black Beauty or the Golden Lace cultivars but they can't be too far off from the straight species which I do have here. It has been my experience that Sambucus nigra does not like full sun or full shade so keep that in mind as morning or dappled shade might be the best for the cultivars as well as for the straight species. Mine also seem to like it wet. Other than that, you would need another S. nigra clone to set fruit. They need cross pollination. You might want to track down a 'Guincho Purple'. I've seen the 'Guincho Purple' for sale and that's an attractive plant also. I am told the "black" color in the leaves of the 'Black Beauty' doesn't come out until the plant matures a tad and I read at some link that the flowers smelled like lemon?

If you like dark foliage, you might want to take a look at a Physocarpus opulifolius 'Diablo' or rather a Western Ninebark. I took a look at some of the photos of foliage on line for the 'Black Beauty' and if you like that, you'll most certainly like the 'Diablo'. I think I'll go check into a 'Black Beauty' myself. Very attractive plant. Glad you posted a question asking about it.

I have the wild elderberries growing all around to, and that's what made me think Black Beauty should be happy here. The lemony scent described sounds nice to. And lots of dappled, bright shade around here to, as I live deep in the woods. For the most part I've been unimpressed with Wayside to, so I just use the calalogs to see what to find (bigger and cheaper!) from someone else.

Equilibrium, I'm glad you mentioned Physocarpus opulifolius. I've been considering 'Diablo', but saw a variety from Bluestone they say is new called 'Summer Wine'. The description says it does'nt get as big as 'Diablo', so I'm thinking of trying that one. Any reports on this cultivar?

And speaking of finding bigger for cheaper, are you familiar with Arbor Villiage? I got some great Magonias from them in spring that other vendors where charging double for. They're in Missouri, so shipping was very reasonable to.

Thanks, Neal.

Hey Neal, I'm not all that familiar with cultivars of much other than carnivorous or insectivorous plants and native herbaceous perennials. Well, I am familiar with the cultivars of Calleryana Pears ;) and other exotic invasives because I try to keep current on what's being unleashed.

I am somewhat familiar with the cultural requirements of many native trees and shrubs and when dealing with the few cultivars I have here, it has been my experience the "apples don't fall all that far from the tree" so to speak. Backing up to your Sambucas nigra 'Black Beauty', you may not be aware of this but Elderberries flower and fruit on new wood. This means you can whack it back if it grows into something that isn't to your liking. Ninebark is the opposite. It forms flowers on old wood. You can whack these back right after they flower if you so desire. I don't prune anything around here- no need, too many critters all too willing to volunteer their services.

I have no experience with the 'Summer Wine' cultivar of Ninebark but Physocarpus is a tough cookie. They can be planted in full sun to partial shade, can tolerate either acid or alkaline soil, and they can withstand dry situations. I really like this species because the flowers are an excellent nectar source and the fruits are eaten by several species of birds. I have straight species of Ninebark here as well as 3 of the cultivar 'Diablo'. The rabbits had a go at them and then the deer browsed them down to within a few inches of the ground and they came back. I'm sold on Ninebark and any cultivars out there. I love that peeling bark. So much visual texture to it.

One thing I have learned in the past few years is that bigger isn't necessarily better. I pretty much came to the conclusion that smaller plants often have an increased likelihood of surviving. Many reasons for this. The other thing I have noticed is that a well planted bare root that acclimates after being transplanted can overtake a 10 gallon or B&B within a few years. So I now prefer juveniles 10 to 1 over more mature plants. Easier on my pocket book too. There will always be the exception to the rule.

I'm going to throw another one out there for you- New Jersey Tea (Ceanothus americanus). I don't think there are any cultivars out there but if you are looking for a more compact shrub, this might be one you should take a peek at. The leaves are no where near the 'black' you will get with "Black Beauty' or 'Diablo' but they are darker when they mature than most shrubs. I particularly like New Jersey Tea because it is a hummingbird, butterfly, and bird magnet. It is very adaptable like the Ninebark but has an added benefit of fixing much needed nitrogen into the soil which is a bonus of most legumes although Ceanothus is not a legume.

Here's a link-
http://www.missouriplants.com/Whitealt/Ceanothus_americanus_page.html
Don't let the bright kelly green leaves fool you in that photo which was probably taken with flash. The leaves of my New Jersey Teas are darker as is portrayed by the image of the three stand alone leaves you will find if you scroll down at that site.

I have a suggestion for you since you are planting all these wonderful shrubs, delve further into your Miscanthus sinensis 'Zebrinus' you have over there on your property. It truly is one of the most beautiful ornamental grasses and to the best of my knowledge, it is not as invasive as most but it is still a cause for concern and might become an issue in the future crowding and starving out other plantings you have. There are alternatives to Miscanthus that I am in my infancy exploring but they are out there and you don't need to stop them from going to seed as you do Miscanthus. Just a thought.

Lauren

Hi. I've been growing Sambus nigra 'Argenteovariegata' for a few years and like it. Same growth as species with very nice variegated foliage. My neighbours have 'Black Beauty' and it seems nice but is a small plant. I like Equil's suggestion of Ceanothus - I grow a few and think they are underutilized.

Hey growin, you're up on cultivars... are there any out there for New Jersey Tea?

Well, there's New Jersey Tea 'Gloire de Versailles' - http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/2204/ - mine died but looked good when blooming.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/78882/index.html 'Topaz' but I don't know it.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/54303/index.html 'Marie Simon' - ?
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/69078/index.html 'Pearle Rose' - ?

The list goes on. They hybridize easily and C. americanus seems to be a very hardy parent of many cultivars. They are very easy to root from cuttings.

I had to go and look all of these up one by one. The 'Gloire de Versailles' looks very tasty, it's not a cultivar of C. americanus though, the 'Topaz' and the 'Gloire de Versailles' appear to be cultivars of Ceanothus delilianus. 'Marie Simon' and 'Perle Rose' appear to be cultivars of Ceanothus pallidus, and there are a lot of named French hybrids out there and it is making my head spin. The C. delilianus and the C. pallidus are native to a different continent. I may have found a few americanus cultivars (I think... not positive yet) that I really like; 'Blue Jeans' and 'Cynthia Postan' which I really am drooling over and it looks as if I might actually be able to get my hands on one from here so I might just order-
http://www.cornflowerfarms.com/pdf/Retail_Order_Form.pdf#search='Ceanothus%20americanus%20blue%20jeans'

Has anyone ever ordered from this place? I want that 'Blue Jeans' real bad. So bad I can taste it. When I first saw a photo of that I was wowed.

Look what else I found while exploring-
http://www.lazyssfarm.com/Plants/Shrubs/Shrub_Images/S-Z/sambucus_nigra_madonna.htm
That's another wow but then I like variegated leaves.

Oh wow! So much to consider now! :)

Lauren, I totally agree about starting small with shrubs, and bareroot even better. Not only is the onset of middle age bringing with it a patience I've never known LOL, but my cheapness and tendency to experiment have shown me first hand the little ones catch up with and surpass larger ones. That's what I found with the great little hydrangea (4"pot) I got from Bluestone this spring, it looks like it should bloom in '06.

I'm so sold on the ninebarks. I already refer to the garden as the "buffet" a lot in summer, and the more the merrier! There are so many great birds, butterflies, moths, and cool bugs I'd never seen before living in the woods. And since they were here first, I don't use any chemicals. So far, we've got a pretty good balance.

I love the way the elderberries can be cut back and treated more like a herbacious perennial or be left as a shrub or small tree-so versitile. I plan on using Black Beauty more as a perennial. And 'Madonna' is gorgeous! Good prices to.

The New Jersey Tea is new to me and is lovely. I found the seed pods particularly attractive. While it probably would'nt work for the area I'm working on, I do have some spots where they would be awsome. Are they as graceful as some of the pics depict?

And funny you should mention the plethora of zebra grass I have. It's all a background for this area I'm planting. Dark foliages with contrasting shapes are wonderful alongside the zebra grass, so the grass is massed in the back and dark foliages and pastel blooms are the "pallette" I'm working with in front. I have a few other Miscanthus that were given to me, and they are inspiring me to further explore the world of grasses. In the last few years I've decided I could'nt garden without grasses and sedums LOL.
Thanks all! Neal.

Hey hey! I am the Queen Of Cheap! Don't you forget it!

I've been referring to myself as the smorgasbord over here for a while so I can certainly relate to your buffet comments. I ditched chemicals on my lawn a while ago but will still use them to treat stumps. Yes, I think the New Jersey Tea is as graceful as depicted in the photos. You may want to work a few of those in. I've noticed that moths like them.

You can definitely sculpt your elderberries but I wouldn't exactly think of them as an opportunity to hone up on your bonsai skills ;) They can be whacked all right but if your intent is to knock them down to a 2' plant they might not be all that happy in the long run.

I've been sold on Ninebarks for a while. What I can tell you is that I am now sold on acquiring more Ceanothus and it's growin's fault. I had no idea there were so many options out there.

LOL. Equil, you'll like the Ceanothus. They prefer a drier position, are super easy to propagate (free plants!) and have nice blooms. Sorry, I thought those were C. americanus cultivars. Ooops. They're hardy though to Zone 6'ish.

That Sambucus 'Madonna' is awesome. It's more yellow variegated than my S. 'Argenteovariegata'. It can grow as big as the species and can colour-up a corner. I don't have anything negative or positive to say about the Ninebarks yet. I need to work with them a bit more.

Well, oops to me too. Appears 'Blue Jeans' is another named French hybrid and not a C. americanus cultivar and looks as if we can toss 'Cynthia Postan' in to the named French hybrid arena also. Figures. I am so unfamiliar with the hybrids and cultivars that I had to sit here and go on an all and all out web search. Looks as if we don't have any cultivars of New Jersey Tea. Wonder why.

I can't find information on S. 'Argenteovariegata'. Can you post a link to an image please?

growin, you need a Ninebark.

http://www.heronswood.com/catalog/02901?dS4yMXID;;28

That's a real beauty! Great way to bring some light to the shade, and good price to.

Last spring, I planted a couple of the 'Diabolo' ninebarks, a 'Black Beauty', and a 'Guincho Purple' sambucus. The only one that hasn't thrived is the 'Black Beauty', which may even be dead, although I have my fingers crossed for spring. It seemed to be doing fine until maybe August; then just lost all its leaves.
The 'Diabolo' is lovely with many different shades of color (see the color echoes threads in the perennials forum for some great examples.) That quality alone, because it highlights many plantings, is causing me to consider adding even more of them.

I just gotta say this, and it's meant in a wholly constructive way so hopefully no one will take offense, OK?

A gentle cautionary note to everyone: colored-foliage plants can be spectacular focal points in the right setting. But having more than one, or placing it improperly, can turn your yard into a design nightmare.

Too much purple can become a depressing light sink; yellow can look chlorotic; variegations can bring to mind viral infections; contortions can look like aphid infestations or herbicide drift; too many foci can confuse the eye and frustrate the unity of your landscape. Nature gives us color in flowers and in autumn foliage -- going too far beyond that can look contrived and gaudy, unless you are planting an industrial site, gas station, or shopping mall.

This is especially true for those who live in natural settings, like woods or savannas. Please consider the sense of place you have, and enhance it subtly with site-appropriate plants, preferably natives. Resist those urges to by one of everything just because they all look so hot at the nursery, like painted hookers calling seductively from upstairs windows of cheap hotels. Your yard may wind up like those which have 25 different gazing balls or other knick-knacks strewn around what otherwise could have been a superb landscape.

You are discussing some terrific species above. Don't blow it by using too many of their freak cultivars -- go back to the straight species that blend so well in so many ways, and appreciate them.

Guy S.

I'm on my own - don't worry about me.
I did have the similar question about the sambucus, I was looking at getting the "Black Lace", but have heard mixed results on the Black Beauty. I am also going to get Sutherland's Gold - I know someone who has it with a good report.

My main concern with dark or varigated plants are their chlorophyl production with so little green.

They do have a smaller version of the Diablo Ninebark now which is good, Diablo has a bit rougher look than BB. There is no way I would take a chance on a Japanese Maple for $200 in my zone.

Here are some Diablo's

I agree that with the "purple" leaved plants, moderation is the key. My main concern with the sambucus nigra is that it is the european species. With the amount of seeds elderberries produce, I just wonder if it would start popping up in places just as often as the american elderberry.

Guy, I don't think I have to worry about overdoing the freak cultivars, I can't afford enough of them to be a problem LOL. But being a lover of design, I think you're absolutely right. In the wooded backdrop of my yard, there's lush green everywhere and I'm dreadfully lacking in woody foliar interest plants. Variety in color, texture, bloom and form all must be kept in mind. I'm a bit of a flower fiend to, so showcasing my favorite roses, lilies, and daylilies is always of primary concern.

bigcitygal, where are you getting Sutherland's Gold? I have a shadowy path where I'm using mostly ferns, hostas, and hellebores, and would like a few choice upright gold or variegated leaved plants to shine there.
Thanks all, Neal.

I've fallen into the trap of gaudy plants described by Guy. It's kind of a moot point since my garden (if it can be called that) is kind of a mish mash of plants anyway. A frequent poster on GW refers to this as a zoo affect. The good news is I've resisted the urge to put out the pink flamingos. By the way, Guy, don't you have a purple-leaved tree under observation for possible selection?

It's the dual obsessions that drive me nuts! I'm obsessed with collecting more lilies, iris, roses, hosta, daffodils, cannas, elephant ears, and on and on. Truly a hopeless fiend! So it would be really easy to fall into the hodge podge look just trying to accomadate more collections. But, design is my love to, and I can't stand growing a plant without trying to highlight what I love about it. I work as a floral designer and had some college landscape design classes with the horticulture program at the local university (along with greenhouse production, floriculture, fruit production, woody plants, etc.), so I tend to look at plants with that in mind (thank goodness, otherwise I'd want everything! LOL). I have found some "recipes" that are helping though. I've stumbled upon combinations of plants I collect that really please me (like rose, lily, iris, daylily, heuchera), and then duplicate the combination with different cultivars elsewhere. The subtle echos of forms is pleasing to the eye from a distance, and I've still got my babies to observe up close.

"By the way, Guy, don't you have a purple-leaved tree under observation for possible selection? "
---------------
I actually have several. One, Aesculus glabra 'April Wine', is purple only in early spring. Another, Quercus nuttallii 'New Madrid', is purple with each new growth flush and brilliant red in fall, but green otherwise. Another is a second-filial Fagus xmoesiaca resulting from pollination by F. sylvatica 'Atropurpurea'. Here is an album showing them and others:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1676497&a=31647939&f=

I don't deny they can be spectacular -- I only suggest that they require VERY careful placement, are inappropriate to naturalistic sites, are difficult to blend into many designs, and can take over a landscape. Use them very sparingly if at all.

(But with the pink flamingoes, heck -- if you're gonna have one of the durned things, you might as well have a whole flock!)

Guy S.

GS,
I'll have to get Sutherland's from Klehm's Song Sparrow nursery in IL, unless it shows up locally - it's possible.

I'll agree on the zoo effect, more of a noah's ark effect I think. Psychologically I think it has do with wanting as many different things as you can get when you get older and can afford them. Although I do think you settle in to what you prefer the most.

Neal, I got a 'Sutherland's Gold' from Lazy S's, but I haven't checked their stock for '06 yet. It's leaves are lovely.

Guy, your 'April Wine' is outstanding! Keep us posted, this may be one we would be interested in. Interesting dwarf Koelreuteria - we saw one growing at JC Raulston Arboretum in NC several years ago. This tree performs well for us in this location and would love to add a dwarf form to the gardens.

As for Sambucus 'Black Beauty', it's been a very disappointing plant for us. I love the genus Sambucus, but this one does not like the heat and humidity of Virginia summers. We have basically treated it as a perennial, whacking it back to promote the fresh dark growth in the spring, but what I wouldn't give to have a specimen that does as well as 'Madonna' in our gardens. Our 'Madonna' is the one Sambucus that doesn't mind our climate and in 4 years has had to be regularly pruned to keep it 'tamed' for the spot we selected for it.

'Sutherland Gold' on the other hand is another cultivar that suffers from our temps, absolutely gorgeous in the spring, but then the heat and humidity kicks in and the foliage looks pathetic. I had used it in a container planting I entered in the Fine Gardening contest. It looked superb in June but then when FG contacted me to take more pics for their spring issue, I had to let them know that the 'Sutherland Gold' and the dark foliage of the Cimicifuga ramosa 'Pink Spike' had suffered from the summer humidity and the planting didn't offer much by September :(

Now my quest is to find 'Black Lace' and test it. I first learned of this plant two years ago, originally only available in the UK, but will be available in limited supply in the US this spring.

We're always looking for interesting foliage, particularly the darker and gold foliage plants, but I agree you have to be careful of their placement in the garden. Our only problem has been that we keep adding to our "Wish List" and our the landscape boundaries keep growing, and growing, and growing!!

Here's a picture of our 'Madonna' in the fall of 2000, one gallon pot planted in the spring.

And here it is Spring, 2005, after severe prunings in 2002 and 2004. Initially thought we gave it plenty of room - WRONG!

Thanks rcn48, that's great info and experience. 'Madonna' is just gorgeous; brings so much light to an area.
Neal.

rcn48, you're giving me elderberry envy! It looks like you have used it just the way I have been trying to use my gold shrubs, near the dark edges of the woods to bring light and depth to the recesses of the darkness. That specimen looks like a real beacon! (Will you have 'Madonna' at Blandy in May?) I'm glad to hear about your success with her in our climate. So far, I haven't had the problem with 'Sutherland Gold' that I did with 'BB.' Given that BB lost all its leaves in August, would you hold out any hope for its ability to come back in the spring?

mickgene, we do have a few 'Madonna' left, but not sure how they'll come through the winter. If they're acceptable, I'll try to remember to bring the best one to Blandy for you - but just in case, when you receive our postcard, send me a quick Dmail to remind me.

As for 'Black Beauty', I'm sure it will come back in the spring - just frustrating that it doesn't perform better for us. We may try a few in a couple other spots this year to see if it does any better.