Cold caterpillars

Hi, this is my first thread in this forum.

About a month and a half ago I replaced a vine on one of my trellises with a couple of passion vines, recognising that they would soon die back, but they would be ready to go in the Spring. Well, in spite of colder than usual weather that came earlier than usual, those crazy things are still growing (even though we have had freezing temps every couple of days or so - very unusual for us at this time.) There are a bunch of caterpillars, happily eating away, but will they freeze?

On the coldest days I look at them and wonder if they are frozen, then when it warms up, I notice they have moved around a bit. I always have some larger ones and new smaller ones. Here are both a larger and smaller one.

Do I need to take care to do or not do anything? Maybe not cut the vine back when it dies? Will they overwinter on the dead vines (when the tops finally die back?)

Hi maggiemoo, I had a lot of these, I think they are Gulf Fritillarys, on my Passionvine in early Nov. but none since. Supposedly they are year-round in Florida without a hard freeze - I can't speak for Texas and am far from a butterfly expert. I know that my Monarch cats go through long periods of inactivity. I think they are passing from one instar stage to the next. Then they eat frantically for a while, etc. They seem to do OK down to temps in the 40s but I suspect there is more "attrition" at the lower temps. Actually, the Gulf Fritillarys come into my yard more on the warmer, sunnier days. I have taken some Monarch cats into my house on some really cold nights, feed them cut milkweed, and then rereleased them. They all survive this. I don't touch them, just let them crawl onto something or cut the leaf they are on. I hope this helps. Maybe a true expert will come forward.
Merry Christmas, Sheila

I don't know about the Passionvine freezing. We aren't ever supposed to get a hard freeze here and so far mine has survived the occassional dip towards a freeze. (I am also no plant expert.)
Sheila

Hi Sheila, thanks for the help.

I'm just barely back from a trip to NM, the weather has been warm and dry while I was away. The day I left, there were more cats of various sizes on my passionvines, and a Gulf Fritillary was "frittering" around happily in the garden. When I got back today, lavender and other plants were in bloom, and there were a number of pretty yellow butterflies flying around. They wouldn't stay still long enough for me to catch their markings. All in all, it was a nice welcome home.
:-)

Maggiemoo,

I have some kind of cats on my passion vines also. I think it is a Gulf Fritillary but I am not sure if they are found this far from the Gulf. They may be one of the Painted Lady species. As you can tell, I am not a butterfly expert either. We have had three nights down to 30 degrees in December but we haven't had any real frosts. There were two cats last week; now there are 12 (at least that I can see). There are also a couple of chrysalises (sp?). I only have one passion vine but I plan on planting another one in Spring.

Chuck

That's funny that you have Gulf Fritillary caterpillars on your passion vine now....I usually have them all summer/fall.....but don't have any now. Well, usually by now my passion vine has died back, but it's been so warm here that it hasn't yet and it's even produced a couple of fruits!! Not sure what to do with that! I do have Monarch caterpillars on my milkweed...which I'm thrilled about because that's why I got it...to attract them.

I brought in a few Gulf Fritillary catepillars before the first hard freeze last year and fed them passionflower leaves until they pupated. One eclosed outside in my cage without problem fairly soon afterward and one in late December, I think. Later on, after most of my vines froze back, I found one more catepillar on a freeze-zapped Maypop vine. It must have survived some freezes and had no edible leaves left. I put it in my chrysalid cage and tried to give it some leaves from a plant that was still green but it wouldn't eat. It pupated, even though it looked too small. It later couldn't emerge successfully from the chrysalid and died. As warm as it's been, at least they have a chance. I was seeing those butterflies around during January and they're still coming by now. Very unusual...I rarely see them in winter.

There hasn't been a day that I haven't seen cats on the passionvines this whole winter (using the term "winter" loosely here, it's turned out to be quite mild.) The passionvines have never died back, though they've been severely munched back. I noticed a while ago that recruits are on the way - two new vines have sprung up just behind the trellis. I've seen a few more Gulf Fritillaries "frittering" around the yard.

I need to check my vines for cats. I know they stripped a seedling vine that was blooming for the first time back in December. I didn't even get to see the flower, just the sad remnants of what was a flower!

Do cats make their chrysallises on the host plant? Other than the two chrysallises mentioned above, I have not seen any of the others. I suspect that there are some of the chrysallises opening because we have a few more butterflies than before. Do cats crawl to another source to make their chrysallises? The birds just sit on the lemon tree next to the PV's and I hear them squawk every now and then. Are the pupae being eaten by the birds as well as opening?

Take care,

Thanks,

Chuck

I believe that a cat makes its chrysalis in a different site than the host plant. And yes, the birds will eat the pupae. I have a Monarch Cat on a milkweed on my lanai right now and have watched it eat up a storm and double in size in three days. Am eager to see where it goes to form the chrysalis. Karen

What do you do to discourage the birds from eating the contents of the chrysallis? I can tell right now that I have more research to do. Thanks,

Chuck

I don't know the answer to this Chuck. I do know that some chrysallis' are shaped like bird poop to throw the birds off. I don't even know if the birds go after the chrysallis, or just the cats and butterflies. You can get information from your agricultural extension service. Karen

Dear nursestherapies,

I had forgotten about the agricultural extension service. Thanks for reminding me!!

Have a good day!!!

Chuck

You too!!

Well, while I was in NM for the past week, we had a hard freeze. It zapped the rest of the passion vines (and lots more in the garden), but there are still caterpillars on it! Those guys are tough!

I have a rusty garden art piece that looks like a bee skep. I was moving it to a new location and noticed that it has two chrysalises hanging inside it. Looks like the perfect place for them, birds can't get in, and they are somewhat protected from strong winds. These two look like they're dead though.

maggiemoo, I love your rustic garden art piece and what ground cover is it setting upon?

Butterfly weed is one of my favorite plants, but here in all this moisture, the aphids are a real problem. I have used water spray and within just a few days, they have returned. Need to find a natural insecticide. The monarchs and gulf fritillaries are my limited groups that visit my yard. In fact I saw a monarch yesterday. We have very few swallowtails and sometimes see the sulphurs visiting.
carol

Glad you like the bee skep, flowerette! The ground cover is creeping thyme. I can't seem to find it anywhere since I bought what I have right now. Last Summer it up and turned brown all at once. I thought it was gone, but it's slowly coming back.

My butterfly weed also gets heavy aphid traffic, but it never seems to bother the plants. I like the aphids on that plant because: 1) it keeps them away from my roses and 2) it attracts ladybugs and other beneficials. Sometimes we just have to wait for the beneficials to arrive in numbers, but I can usually wait.

The rustic piece is really a good idea!! We are fortunate that the aphids we have only bother our roses and my wife will spray with soapy water to deter these. We have had a light frost (30 degrees) for the past two days. Yesterday was only 61 degrees but today is only 54 degrees. There is only one cat I can see. It is supposed to rain this weekend. We really need it. I spent half of yesterday taking out older minitiature roses and replacing them with newer plants (all five of them: minitiature roses)!! They were my gift to my wife for Valentine's Day.

Chuck

How long is the chrysallis phase of the Gulf Fritallary? I have a chrysallis that has been hanging on the trellis for two weeks now. I have three or four chrysallises that I am keeping an eye on. I would have lots of butterfles by now if it wasn't for the birds. There is one sparrow that makes a show of eating a cat and then coming over by me to stretch and let his new food settle. LOL

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck, I've been wondering the same thing. I've noticed that there is now a third chrysalis in my bee skep. This one has color (the other two look like dead wood.) Also, one the butterfly emerges, I guess the chrysalis stays behind?

Don't know how long they take, but the chrysallis stays behind. The empty chrysallis is a pale tan color.

Thanks Suzie, I feel like such an idiot, but it's all new to me. I guess I have two "empty" and one "full".

I found out that about chrysallises opened on the next-door neighbor's fence last week. I had noticed that there were more and more GF's flying around but I didn't see from where. The neighbor told me about it Saturday. Luckily, their family is excited about my butterfly and hummingbird attracting garden, too.

By the way, when the neighbor was telling me about the new butterflies, a male Hummingbird came to the feeder I put in the tree on the side of the fence that I share with them. He was really impressed and I hope that I can gain more trust from the hummingbirds and butterflies in my garden so I can take better photos.

We had two frosts (down to 28 degrees Fahrenheit) last week and for a while it looked like all the earlier gains would be lost but we had two days of pretty sunshine and today it is raining.

Thanks,

Chuck

Wow, how exciting to get a visit from the hummer when you're talking to your neighbor about this stuff! You may have made a convert out of him.

I can't get over the cats hanging around on the now totally leafless passion vines. Hope the vines will be able to grow some leaves befdore they get chomped down again.

Maggiemoo, I kept seeing the chrysallises hanging around and I had to touch them! That's when I found they were empty.
I found a gulf frit cat in with my cuttings the other day. I need to check and see if he has eaten all the vines!
Plant some extra Incense or incarnata vines for them to eat and maybe they will leave your other vines with enough leaves to flower.

Incense and Incarnata? Please forgive my ignorance. Are those also passionvines?

Oops, I should have said Passiflora. Yes, they grow fast and the cats love them both.

Thanks, I'll put in a call to Arbor Gate, see if they have them or can get them for me! I can't remember the names of the two that are chomped on right now, but at least one of them has sprouted two babies behind the same trellis (between the trellis and the house. What's wierd is that the cats are leaving the babies alone, like they haven't even seen them.

I had lots of cats on the passi vine the last two years, the gulf frits were there constantly laying eggs. I have never seen a chryslis. Don't know where they hide. I have looked for them, but they are hidden.
I have milkweed plants, but seldom see a swallow tail or monarch.

Well, I take it back about the cats not finding the two babies behind the trellis. Today I found one of them chewed back to a 2" nub! I found the short (approx 12") stalk that had been completely chewed off, it was stripped of all the leaves and the stalk itself was pretty chewed up - completely around the stalk in some places, in nice neat little circles!

Purple, ever since I found the chrysalis's on the bee skep, I've noticed them in other places, too. Today I found one on some small dead branches on a plant I hadn't cut back yet. It was interesting, I think it must have been forming during that really cold snap. There was about 1/2" of the cat still hanging out at the top, like it didnt quite make it all the way before the poor thing died. :-(

Anyway, I think that your eyes just start to tune in to them. They are so well camouflaged!

Maggie,

Did your passifloras recover? I wish that there were more cats to eat the rest of the Lavender Lady I have. I have lots and lots of passion flowers(only about six or seven blooms on one bush actually) but no cats right now. However the way that the GF's are flying around the backyard, I think that it won't be too much longer to wait. I don't know if I told you but the first week of April, I am going to plant another Passionvine on the other side of the yard. I am trying to keep my butterfly host plants as far away from each other as possible...however, when your yard room is restricted, it is not always possible to plant them that far apart.

Take care,

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

One of the vines is trying to make a comeback, I'm watching closely to see if the new leaves will get chomped before they have a chance. The people at the nursery said they'll be fine, not to worry (imagine that, they could have sold me two more plants!) One of the babies behind the trellis has just started climbing the trellis, I'm wondering if the cats will now find them, though I don't see near as many as there were before (maybe they starved after literally eating themselves out of house & home, lol.) I'm watching the other baby to see if it will grow again. The other "adult" vine has a little green at the bottom but I don't see any sign yet of it putting on new growth.

Boy, I sure know what you mean about space being limited. I don't have a large yard to begin with, and there's only about 30% that gets really good sun, and within that space is even less space available for trellises, etc. Gardeners do have to get creative!

Why do you try to keep the host plants as far away from each other as possible?

Maggie,

You know, I was trying to think of why I should keep the host plants thirty feet apart. The only reason I could think of is that it would slow the birds down a little in eating the cats before they become butterflies. I am pretty sure that I have it mixed up with the hummingbird feeders which need to be at least thirty feet apart...LOL

I can see you know what I mean when you say that you have a space problem...but, you know, if I had a larger backyard, I don't think I could keep up with it. LOL

Take care,

Chuck

LOL! That's the truth, even my small yard is sometimes more work than I can handle. I'm letting some of the shady areas go "natural" because I just don't have the money and the energy to keep up with it.

It's going to be really nice when I win the HGTV Dream Home. I'm going to sell it and the truck, buy a lot of land, and then watch out! (I'll hire someone to help me with the mini orchard, butterfly garden, wildflower field, woodland area, park complete with reflecting pool, etc.)
:-)

I came across this thread when I was clearing out my threads. Maggie, did you ever win the HGTV dream house? At the risk of repeating myself, I will tell you what my oldest daughter and her husband do. When they come to California (or when I go to Utah), they get five or six lotto tickets. Then they hang them up on their refrigerator for three weeks while they discuss what they are going to spend their winnings on. Then they get the winning numbers. When it is apparent they haven't won anything (at least, so far), they have had a wonderful three weeks of 'being rich'!!! LOL.

Anyway, Good Luck!!

Take care,

Chuck

I heard about that guy that won the HGTV home last time. He was so determined to keep it, but finally had to put it up for sale. I'd just put it up for sale right away (like almost all the winners they've had!) if I won. No way I could afford to keep up a big fancy place like that! But with the money it sells for, I could get a much better house than the little one I have now. My passies are doing well this year. Even Lavender Lady is coming back now! One thing I love about vines is that if given something tall to climb, they can grow up and won't need as much space.

Ah, Chuck, they won't actually announce the winner of the Dreamhouse until April 29th, but I'll be in College Station at the Texas Roundup, so I guess I'll miss out this year, lol. It's a small sacrifice to make for a DG Roundup, but it sure would have been nice to buy the land (with the money from selling it) and build my compound with cottages and gardens galore. It has been nice to dream - There would be a mini-orchard, a woodland area with a meadow nearby for wildflowers, a pond, butterfly garden, xeric garden, an area done like a park (complete with a water-frolic feature), plus just my regular gardens to play with. There would be a few horses, ducks in the pond, a couple of dogs and always kitties, plus an arrangement of cottages so family and friends could have their own spaces while visiting. Sigh! Maybe next year. :-)

My passies don't seem to have a chance with all the cats eating them up as soon as the new leaves try to emrrge. What's a mother to do?