Results of my Norway Maple "rescue experiment"

Hi everybody! I hear that a lot of regulars from a *different forum* moved here, so I decided to join too. I kept the same name.

I enjoy "rescuing" volunteer tree seedlings that grow in unfortunate locations, such as railroad tracks and parking lots. I've gotten some nice specimens this way, but in the process of learning, I have also come home with invasives sometimes. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I took home some White Poplar and Ailanthus before learning they're invasive weeds....good thing I planted them in pots, not in the ground. So it's been a learning experience.

Some people from a *different forum* informed me that Norway Maples are invasive. It took a bit of convincing, but now I know that, yes, they are invasive, yes, even in the Pacific Northwest.
But it broke my heart because I had 20+ Acer platanoides growing in pots!

They were offspring of dark-red / purple Acer platanoides, but their genetic outcome was mostly green, a lot of yellowish-green, a few bronze, and only a scant few seedlings were dark red. And a few had other oddities, like crumply-shaped leaves. So it was sorta like an observation of genetics, and obviously, green is the dominant color. The dark-red ones were less vigorous, also.

2 years ago, some of the regulars at the *other forum* told me to get rid of them but I said 'no, you're all overreacting, they are nice trees.' But, this August, after spending hours yanking out rogue Norway Maples from my boyfriends' yard, I decided to get tough with the pesky Norwegian invaders! I killed most of them! Gleefully, I stripped all the dirt from their roots and set them out in the hot sun to die!

I kept only the 3 with the darkest-red leaves.

Just wanted to let you know that I've seen the light.
(And to say hello!)

I'm a member of a carnivorous plant list serve but I like it here at Dave's Garden best so I think I posted all of 4 times there after I joined here.

I'm also a member of a Wild Ones Chapter. I too was encouraged to get rid of several trees that I was told were going to be nothing but trouble. "But they were sterile" was my retort. I loved those first Bradford Pears I bought and planted in my yard. I didn't listen either. Matter of fact, I went out and bought two Cleveland Pears. And then I bought a nice big RedSpire. I loved all those Calleryana Pears and was going to buy more of cultivars that were being released one after the next. They grew fast and they grew tall and they had pretty white blooms in spring. And then my "sterile" Calleryana Pears began hubridizing. And then I found their offspring in my woodland area about 3 years later. That was the end of that. Fortunately, nobody rubbed my nose in it.

"Fortunately, nobody rubbed my nose in it. "

That's 'cause we didn't know about it! YOU, of all people!!! Now I'll never let you live this down, Madame Callery . . .

By the way, I'm supposed to be doing some program for the WildOnes conference next July 15 -- maybe I'll see you there. Pat asked me to pencil in the date but we haven't discussed many details yet.

Owl, welcome aboard! You know you gotta get rid of those last three red ones too, eventually. So I won't nag you about it. But you know you gotta do it, right?

Guy S.

Hi Equilibrium. Is it okay to say other forum names, like GardenWeb? That was my old hangout.

I don't think Bradford Pears are sterile, by any means.
I admit, I snagged a volunteer Callery Pear sprout from a parking lot in 2003. It has the most gorgeous fall color, and it grew fast, so I planted it in the yard. I know, I know, Bradford Pears are so hateable!

But I've found other great little volunteers in overgrown parking lots, like Japanese maples, Deodar Cedar, Chamaecyparis, Vine Maple, Sweetgum, Elm, etc...

Hello, Guy S! I'm happy to see a familiar name! The *other* party was dwindling, so I moved to this gathering! Already seems better than the last place!

I've never been told we can't refer to other places we visit. There's whole threads in here about other forums and everybody posts links if they need to. It's just like a list serve only the people are friendlier and more open minded.

Oh Guy... those Calleryana Pears were great big B&B's. $$$! The first one to go was the one that started leaning toward the family room after a nice ice storm. Figured that would split and come crashing down where we were watching tv and eating popcorn. Did I ever tell you about the nice White Mulberries I planted here? How about the two shiny nice Russian Olives? The Burning Bushes? I've got lots of skeletons in my closet but I waste them as soon as I figure out what they are.

And dear sweet Guy... don't be telling undercover to waste her three itsis bitsy Norway Maples until you let me come down by you with my chain saw and waste your Silk Tree. I know how to use that chain saw now- scary, very scary. Lemme at that Silk Tree of yours!

Yes, welcome owl. Your almost as new as me!
I tried to get my digital camera to upload some photos that I took around here today, but for some reason, my computer wouldn't have them.
I'll try more later. I was going to make a post on something I had taken a photo of.
My name here should be familiar too! Only here, it is shortleaf2005 not 2002! I was just going to make it shortleaf here but that name was already taken. And then it occurred to me, I created that name almost 2 years ago here to post something in the Garden Watchdog.
Guy has a Mimosa?! Shame! Prune it at ground level Equilibrium!

Will

Oh, c'mon Will: maybe my entrance was grander than yours, but I don't know, because I haven't seen anyone else's stage presence, LOL.

Anyway, I'm really happy to see you here, shortleaf, and other familiar names, and new people too!

My mimosa is hiding! And it is already on lifetime probation. But in nearly three decades it's produced no offspring, so I'm not going to "profile" it.

I have a Norway maple too, and a very special Koelreuteria selection, if you must know. All of them can be invasive under the right conditions. But I watch them too. At least those (and the mimosa) aren't spread by birds, so if volunteers start coming in I'll be able to spot them within a few hundred feet of the parents. As many have said, different species are invasive (or not) depending upon local conditions.

My bigger concern is our magnificent Kalopanax. I keep finding and killing volunteers, but it's probably the largest and nicest one in the state so I just have not been able to bring myself to remove it. Just like Equil, I guess I have a skeleton.

Owl, go back for a visit over to that "other place" and rescue a few more of those good folks -- bring them here!

Guy S.

Hi everyone! Ok, I'll bite. We moved into our first home five years ago and we inherited a beautiful, large Norway Maple. A tree service I know (who came out to look at the neighbor's Ash growing INTO our garage, long story) said "oh, that's a blankety-blank" some older cultivar no longer offered. It has dark purplish-red leaves. I'm a student of horticulture but haven't taken arboriculture yet. Why is this considered invasive? Due to it's non-native nature alone? I can tell you now we won't be removing it, it has a deck built around it, but the roots are already beyond that. We tore off the bench, since it was girdling the tree, just in time, still shows some damage. I'll post pics if anyone's interested, haven't taken any yet. Thanks.
BTW - Have considered joining Wild Ones, there is a chapter nearby in Hammond, IN.

Just because a plant is introduced or rather non native, doesn't make it invasive. I have literally hundreds of plants here that are introduced species that are well behaved.

Norway Maple is a problem child but I'm sure somebody else will go into detail with you. I had one here and I girdled it. It's a nice scag now for wildlife. Great winter form too. Actually, great year round form and the hawks love it.

Wild Ones is a quality organization. You will probably love that organization. It's so you!

Most people consider Norway Maple invasive because in the northeast it is able to grow at a faster rate than the Sugar Maple, converting the typical Sugar Maple forest into a Norway Maple forest.

Growth rate and competitiveness are major criteria, but I think the more important one in general is recruitment -- the ability to reproduce in a given environment and survive past the seedling stage. This is influenced by factors such as shade and/or flood-drought tolerance, seed pollination and viability, soil and climate adaptability, seed distribution, ability to spread asexually once established, phenology (i.e. taking advantage of seasonal adaptations), allelopathy, absence of effective predators and parasites, etc. Many foreign trees cannot meet all of those requirements in some areas and therefore cause no great concern in those areas.

There is an expert on invasives who did his dissertation, I believe, on Norway maple. His handle on "that other forum" is "Saccharum" and maybe one of our recent transfers from "that other forum" can go back there and lure him over here. I see many comments on DG that imply some misconceptions of the nature and severity of the invasion issue, and Saccharum could be very helpful.

Guy S.

Would you do me a favor Guy... if you can get a hold of that person... would you ask him a question for a few friends of mine? Ask him how to kill one with no outward evidence of having done so. I have a few friends who have husbands who are attached to these trees for the bright yellow fall color. They want them gone, husbands want to keep them. I don't have these issues at my home but I can certainly appreciate those who own the property where these trees are growing who just want to avoid an argument. Mine... I am killing using traditional means and it dropped leaves early this year... imagine that. They girdle well in spring it seems. It was a large tree and I needed it for a scag for the birds thanks to the ding dong landscapers who took it upon themselves to remove several very tall dead trees I had here a few years ago. I currently only have two good scags standing right now but soon I will have three. It will be a slow and agonizing death for the big Norway Maple here but I will enjoy watching its transformation into something more appropriate which will be totally lifeless in my book come next spring.

editing to add...ask that guy to come over and consider joining us here at DG please.

This message was edited Nov 15, 2005 1:09 PM

Poor maple. You're a hard, hard woman!

I try not to go over there anymore, for the same reasons I left in the first place. Maybe Owl or Shortleaf or Mike or some other recent transplant from there will see your request to invite Saccharum here and will follow up. I do hope he, and several of the other great resource people over there, will join us.

Guy S.

We have two giant Norway Maples, one on either side of our house. The one on the south side is a great shade tree for the house and I'm sure our house would literally fry in the summer if it were not there. We also tapped it last year and got some really nice maple syrup for our pancakes.

That being said, I HATE everything else about them. They are messy at all times of year. They have roots that go so far under our yard that if we did kill them, our entire yard would become a sinkhole. I pull seedlings out every day, and thousands more come up. The ones you miss pulling up the first year become impossible to root out by the second year. This year, the tree brought a new caterpillar into my yard which ate everything , but it's main host is ....you guessed it....the Norway Maple.

If you find a way to kill them and not leave a trace, let me know. I'll have to find a backup tree to shade the house, and I'll buy my syrup at the grocery like everyone else.

Thats an idea, I may be venturing "over there" to see if I can interest him in joining DG.
Thats a good idea, he is well studied on that topic.

Will

Bump

Anyone know how to kill these things without leaving a trace?

"That being said, I HATE everything else about them. They are messy at all times of year. They have roots that go so far under our yard that if we did kill them, our entire yard would become a sinkhole. I pull seedlings out every day, and thousands more come up. The ones you miss pulling up the first year become impossible to root out by the second year. This year, the tree brought a new caterpillar into my yard which ate everything , but it's main host is ....you guessed it....the Norway Maple."

Landscapers and contractors plant the nasty things on front lawns and elsewhere on properties because they are cheap and are fast growers, I suppose. I agree with everything you say about them.

Out here in the midwest, we have the curse of the Silver Maple. It is an extraordinarily fast grower, and puts out even more seeds and seedlings, if such is possible, than the Norway Maple. It grows so quickly that becomes quite brittle, and so can break and come crashing down. I just cut one down that was about 45 ft tall and growing close to my house on the northwest side. The wind blows fiercely from that direction, and I was taking no chances that in maybe three years, when the tree was 90 ft tall, it would come down on my roof!

Unfortunately, 3/4 of all the really large trees on the property are silver maples, but at least they are far enough back from my house that if they come down, they won't do damage. They certainly provide enough shade and beauty that I am not going to take down any that are not going to cause problems.

I have a friend who tried to sell his house for 2.5 years, and who had a HUGE Norway Maple smack-dab in the middle of his rather small front yard. I felt sure one of the reasons people were passing the house by, the house being in an excellent neighborhood, on a quiet street, with good schools, was because of that huge Norway Maple that took up 2/3 of the front yard, and was so low it was difficult to mow under. I kept suggesting to my friend that he have the tree thinned and the branches trimmed up higher, but he would not do so. He finally got it sold, but it shouldn't have taken him 2.5 years. No way. Or is it Nor way?

"No way. Or is it Nor way?"
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They are sort of synonymous and homonymous, aren't they?
;-0

At least silver maple is a native with some redeeming qualities, in the right place (i.e. down by the river). And a well-grown one, correctly pruned in its youth to maintain a strong limb structure, can be an asset even near your house.

Norway maple is a great tree for its native Europe, and probably should have been left there. But like most other invasive exotics, the aggressive tendencies are not universal and I suppose it can be grown in some areas without great consequence (if you can tolerate the dense shade and shallow roots). We do have one demonstration tree here in our collection, and I probably won't remove it unless and until I begin to see significant recruitment that I think might have the potential to get out of hand. At least its seeds are spread by wind, thus limiting its initial reproduction zone to a relatively confined area that can be monitored. Callery pears are spread by birds, so watch out!

Guy S.

I hate Calleryana anything. The Silver Maple isn't high on my list either regardless of whether it is a native or not. It's a little bit weedy and whenever you see one around here, you'll see a hundred. They sure do turn up everywhere as volunteers. They probably aren't as bad as some Sumacs or that Black Locust but they're definitely an "aggressive" native.

Is anyone going to part with the super duper deep dark closely held secret of how to kill off a Norway Maple without leaving a trace so that I can share this information with Maria?

No.
No sneaking around allowed!
Just take a chain saw to it.
Unless you want to quietly inject it with herbicide, placing the injection holes discreetly in bark furrows where they are not noticeable . . ..

Guy S.

Guy, I am not at all sure what you say about "correctly pruning" Silver Maples. The neighbor across the street has one that is barely 20 feet tall, and the stupid thing cracked right down the middle and left a piece the size of a small tree on her front lawn. I agree one might make them less dangerous by judicious pruning, but in my book, they are never completely trustworthy.

Bradford Callery pears---LOL! Those are STILL getting planted in some places as street trees! And by now, those planting them have NO excuse for doing so!

No.
No sneaking around allowed!
Just take a chain saw to it.
Unless you want to quietly micro-inject it with herbicide, placing the injection holes discreetly in bark furrows where they are not noticeable . . ..

Guy S.

Which herbicide would be best? I'll go do it with her blessings.

Equil, when I worked for Foster Gallagher, the company that at one time owned Stark Bros, Michigan Bulb, Spring Hill, Brecks and about a dozen other companies, they were selling Lombardy Poplars, and NOT telling customers how short-lived they are! I always, if I could do so without getting caught, told customers NOT to waste their money.

I just got off the phone with my neighbor and Maria is rolling on the floor laughing. She says she does "want to quietly micro-inject it with herbicide, placing the injection holes discreetly in bark furrows where they are not noticeable . . .."

She wants you to know that she's been "salting" the tree with cups of the salt they sprinkle on their sidewalks.

Gimme some online sources to pick up some "tools" to micro inject. She's footing the bill for the syringes I buy to nuke her tree so if I can order a few things for myself at the same time it will help defray her shipping costs. Sooo.... who has the most goodies competitively priced that would also carry tubes or something else that I use around here regularly. I've got Aresonal, Vanquish, and Garlon around here and I suppose any one of those would do the trick if I get it in to that cambium layer just under the bark. Come to think of it, regular old RoundUp should work perfectly fine too if I inject it in enough places.

And persevere, please get back in the nursery business real fast. We need more people like you to save people like me from buying things like Burning Bushes and Calleryana Pears. The sting of what I paid for those trash plants many years ago still hurts me to this day.

This message was edited Aug 29, 2006 11:36 PM

I looked up "Lombardy Poplar" in Dirr to see how badly he excoriated it, but he didn't whallop it too badly. What he said was that Lombardy Poplars have the potential to get very tall and wide, but that they seldom do because they are terribly susceptible to a particular canker that kills them early on.

He did say about another poplar, the name of which I cannot remember, to "stay away from this pest."

Burning bushes wouldn't be bad if it weren't for the fact that everybody one knows plants a dozen or more of them in their yard!!! LOL!

There are a few trees and shrubs I never tire of seeing--- Red Buds, for instance. I love 'em. But Burning Bushes, Forsythias, Wygelias and Spyreas---can nauseate me.

I hope you don't yak in my yard, Persevere1! I have 4 of the five plants you mentioned! Luckily, one of them is a Redbud.

Hey, it's your yard, isn't it? This is America, and you are allowed to have solid Burning Bushes for as far across your yard as the eye can see! @@+))

I just get tired of seeing same old same old same old same old from yard to yard to yard to yard is all.

When my wife and I moved here, we had the forsythias, the bridal veil and the evergreen foundation plants all pulled up and we burned them! :+))

Am putting in Daphne, rhododendrons, dogwoods, european mountain ash and other more unusal items.

The forsythia happened to be in a particularly idiotic place: at the end of the driveway on either side, so that unless we kept them hacked down, they blocked one's vision when pulling out onto the road. Don't know why people plant tall-growing things at the bottom of their driveways...



This message was edited Dec 19, 2005 6:59 PM

I agree with you, Persevere. People will have a perfectly good driveway, and block it with plants. Or even worse, park their SUV's and pickup trucks on the street, blocking anyone for a mile down the street from seeing what's around the @#$%##@ car!

I think maybe it's not what you plant, but how imaginatively you can plant it.

Here in Connecticut, you would have to hack down the Dogwoods and the Rhododendrons. That's all anyone plants! I hated Rhododendrons when I first moved here. Last spring I planted my first two in the backyard, partly because they are so useful in places that nothing else will grow. They do so well here, it's hard NOT to plant them.

"Here in Connecticut, you would have to hack down the Dogwoods and the Rhododendrons. That's all anyone plants! I hated Rhododendrons when I first moved here. Last spring I planted my first two in the backyard, partly because they are so useful in places that nothing else will grow. They do so well here, it's hard NOT to plant them."
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Watch out! Some envious Midwesterners might send a lynch mob after you for spouting such stuff!

Guy S.

Ummm, I disagree a little bit... at least as pertains to Burning Bushes. Looks as if there are some states here in America where it isn't ok to have Burning Bushes as far across your yard as the eye can see.

Here in Illinois, the plant escaped and continues to escape. It is still legal to sell them here so you can still plant them to your hearts content if you own the land but not for long I am told. It is my understanding that this plant will be added to our State's noxious weed list at some point in time along with all Calleryana Pears (Bradford Pear, Cleveland Select, Redspire etc.) and looks to me as if the Tree Of Heaven is up there with them. We don't have a lot of plants on our noxious weed list but the ones that have attained that "Hall Of Shame" status are the worst of the worst costing tax payers millions of dollars to control, manage, and eradicate. I myself have had to kill off hundreds on my property that "volunteered" and there are literally millions of these dense shrubs on county and state land that "volunteered". Burning Bushes are tough.

Here's a few blurbs on them-
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/alert/alrteuon.html
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/CIPWG/art_pubs/docs/burning_bush.pdf#search='Euonymus%20alatus%20invasive'
http://www.vnps.org/invasive/invfseual.htm
http://invasives.eeb.uconn.edu/IPANEnew/IPANEold/plantsummit03/Abstracts.pdf#search='Euonymus%20alatus%20invasive'

Looks as if the Burning Bush hit the Fed's list of invasive species already so numerous states where this plant is forming dense colonies that are documented will now follow, it's only a matter of time. Actually, a few states have already added it to their noxious weed lists-
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=EUAL8

So, not only is the Burning Bush overplanted... but the Burning Bushes flanking front doors across the nation are "breeding" with the Burning Bushes flanking other front doors and their offspring are appearing all over the countryside compliments of birds that eat the fruit and poop it out here there and everywhere.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that problem with burning bush, but Equil said it much better than I would. (I just can't type that fast with my two fingers!)

It is a free country, but we all have to be aware of the consequences of our actions, whether it's smoking in a restaurant or planting invasive species.

Guy S.

Slipping in our old age are we now?

Burning bush is definitely invasive here too.

"Slipping in our old age are we now? "
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Sweetie, I'm way past slipping. I've fallen and I can't get up!

Guy S.

Way past slipping, eh? So that's how that Ailanthus ended up over by you. I've always wondered about that. If I come over with my chainsaw can I slip a little and sort of like fall into that particular tree?

Not Ailanthus -- Albizia and Kalopanax.
NOW who's the one who is slipping, huh? Huh?
Gotcha, senile ol' lady!

Guy S.

Er uh... just keeping you on your toes there big boy!