Red Moonvine

I planted some seeds I got from a trader last Fall that says they are Red Moon Vine--it fowered the other day and the blossom was less than 1" diameter and was white with purple streaks!! Looks like a regular Morning Glory to me??!!! I feel gyped!! I was looking forward to huge red blooms!! hehehe waaaa And I have some blue Morning Glories flowering there too that I did not plant and have no idea where the seeds came from. All I can think is that the birds dug them up from someone's yard and deposited them in mine??!! hehehe Light blue and tiny flowers. Normally I am not up early enough to see them--getting up around 9 am, but had to be up 7am the other day and finally saw them open (I had seen the closed versions at 9 am for a while). I also got seeds for Pink Moon Vine from the same person--they have not flowered yet. Wonder what THEY will look like!! Fuzzy seeds so I think these are correct in idenification but not entirely sure they named the other ones correctly!! Bonnie

Bonnie, I grew what was called Red moonvine (actually were pink) here is the picture from last year

and here was my last years I. turbinata (lavender moonvine).......

My "red" Moonvine looks like the bottom one!! Guess they mislabeled or something. Are they supposed to be so small?? Annual or Tender Perennial?? These ARE different than Morning Glories which I believe are annual but come back from the seeds they drop in Summer. Bonnie

My Daturas MAY be getting ready to bloom now--the ones I got from you. The ones I grew from seed and/or got from other traders still are not showing any signs of blooming.

oh my i like the pink one.

my purple ones are small but make it up in seeds. the moths seem to like these better then the white ones.

i think they are annuals as i havent heard of them coming back. shoot they are so easy to start from seed each year. i find these the easiest to start.

My plant from seed labeled "pink" has yet to flower but I hope it IS pink!! The "Red" one which is purple for sure has some huge green seedpods already too!! They were pretty easy to start from seed. I nicked the seeds and soaked in hot water over night then pushed barely into the soil. Didn't take too long to start a nice hardy vine!! Bonnie

Bonnie, to my knowledge the moonvines are all annuals, I do suppose one in a rather nice climate could even get several crops a year out of them, but don't think they would go as a perennial. And yes they are smaller than some of the morning glories I grow, also smaller than the Ip. alba moonflower vine, which are a lot bigger flower bloom.

I am glad to hear your Dats from me are growing!!! I always each year have some that don't all come up at once, they can be picky and take months to finally germinate, where others just a few days/weeks and they sprout. Patience I always tell myself, but that doesn't always work for me LOL

Laurrie

Laurrie,
I have heard the opposite - at least in my zone, that they are Perennials. I'd have to go back to my notes to tell you specifics.
Also, I understand they all form tubers.
I know of FOUR.
Come on Taylor, jump in here.

Here is my Ipomoea turbinata
labeled as 'Red MoonFlower Vine', but is actually a 'Mauve-Pink'

Emma

Hi Emma!
there seem to be a lot of these that are really similar and many have the same common names.
It seemed last year many decided the red moonflower was I. setosa, if I remember correctly...

Ipomoea turbinata, purga(jalapa), muricata, & setosa, are all very similar.

Sagittata and cairica are the same color, but do not bloom at night.

I. macrorhiza is similar in flower shape and blooms at night, but is a much lighter color. It forms a tuber and is perennial in warm zones.

Of the first four, I think setosa is the "reddest" of the "lavender moonflowers", and has more spines than turbinata. I'm pretty sure all four form tubers. Turbinata and muricata are sometimes listed as synonyms.
-T

See there is someone from a warm climate!!!! Thanks Emma, I was not sure at all on that issue, all I know is that here, no chance for survival over winter!!! Glad you added that, so now we all know.

My I. turbinata seeds were from Larry, and they are definitely more of a lavender than pink!!! Of course, I also think climate has alot to do with color issues on some of these vines!!!!

Yes, where is Taylor, I know she used to grow some of these too!!

Laurrie-
Here I am! lol...you just posted right past me, lol...
-T

LOL I seen that!!! both posted at same time too!!

Thanks for helping clarify this, like I said, up here they are all annuals!!! I figured some would be more perennial in warm climate, thanks for letting everyone know your experience!

My opinion and personal preference is that ipomoea macrorhiza is the nicest of the "lavender moonflowers". It does not have any spines, and I think it is the prettiest. They come back bigger each year and really attract the large night moths.

Emma & Laurrie-do either of you have seeds for the macrorhiza? If not, let me know...
-T

Thanks Taylor,
See - told you she knew *-*

I 'think' I am growing I. macrorhiza.
See if you can tell by this photo what I have.
I tried to capture leaves, buds [Finally going to get blooms] and the tuber
in the same photo.

Emma

This is the one that I received labeled as 'Red MoonFlower Vine'.
The color to me is a Mauve-Pink, or Light Purple.
Here are the blooms
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1729884

and attached is the vine, seed pod and leaf.
Can you tell from this picture which this is?
I. setosa
or
I. turbinata

Emma

Taylor, I did a couple years ago, seeds were from Larry, but I didn't get any seeds from mine!
Perhaps we can swap something LOL

Laurrie

Okay...where to start...Hmmm...anyplace...it would be unusual for a species that is usually a perennial to only do an annual 'thing' in a warm zone,but(!) despite the fact that some night flowering moonvines in Convolvulaceae are officially listed as annuals...I know that they can act like perennials...Plants that produce 'tubers' are usually perennials,but NOT always...Ipomoea turbinata and Ipomoea 'muricata' are considered by many botanists to be the same species and Ipomoea muricata seems to be an outdated term at this point,being superseded by Ipomoea turbinata...Ipomoea purga is not considered to be a night flowering species,but I have Ipomoea purpureas that open at 3 am...
SYNONYMS - this database and many people use the term synonyms as if the word means 'the same as'...this is botanically incorrect(!)...and I can't post Ipomoea cristulata to this database because someone has it listed as a synonym...The correct useage of the term synonym in botany is that the synonym should refer to the older outdated no longer botanically correct term...it does not(!) mean the 'same as'...

Emma - the pods that you showed are clearly reflexed and do not resemble the seedpods of Ipomoea setosa at all,which are never(!) reflexed...


I'm not exactly sure what the main points that are trying to be clarified in this thread are,but I happened to notice alot of 'terms' being 'tossed about' and tried to share my experience and understanding in certain areas...

This message was edited Aug 30, 2005 10:49 PM

Emma-
your first photo sure looks like macrorhiza. They really do...

The second photo is harder to determine, since they both have purple in the stems, spines, and heart shaped leaves. Honestly , the only difference I can see between the setosa and turbinata is the spines. Setosa has more...my guess would be that you have setosa, but still not sure...
Larry grew turbinata and purga at the same time(I know this for sure), so maybe he'd be a better judge of their differences, but don't know that he's grown the setosa...

Ron-maybe you'd like to tell us your opinion as to the differences between turbinata, purga, muricata, and setosa?
What do you think Emma's second photo is, and WHY?

Ron and Taylor,
Thanks for helping me out with knowing what these are.

Ok....my Red Moonflower Vine looks like the photo OhioBreezy posted for lavender Moonflower Vine. I haven't noticed any thorns on either vine. Both were started late in the season as well so are not as large as they should be this time of year. Not nearly as large as they should be this time next year if they indeed survive the Winter and come back in Spring.

OhioBreezy--the Daturas fom you are both getting ready to flower FINALLY. One has two buds getting larger every time I look at them and the other has 3-4!!! This is gonna be AWESOME!! The one with the most buds had one early on but if fell off!! waaaa Had that happen just the other day with my Sunshowers Hibiscus too!! It was getting ready to flower--nice big bud--I saw ants all over it and flicked at it to try to knock that pests off and the bud went flying!! waaaa The only bud currently one the tree!! Only flowered once so far. (Got this as a plug from the Hibiscus Co-op. Too bad there aren't gonna be anymore co-ops but I understand why!! A LOT of work goes into it and some people just cannot understand that I guess!!)

Apparently I got the seeds for the Pink and Red Moonflower Vines in a trade with rh3708 last year cause he saw this post and felt so bad about it he dmailed that he was sorry and was sending something out as replacement. OMG!! I did not intend THAT!! I just was unaware that Moonflower Vines are not all necessarily HUGE and the color suggested by the name!! Sorry Robbie!! God Bless You!!

Bonnie,
I fill bad that I knew so little when I first started trading that I sent out the wrong seed.
I have gotten better at it and am sending you the right red moonvine.
I am sorry to have made you fill as if you had been taken in a trade.
:}
rh

I have been watching the MG thread and love the wonderful blooms I have seen.
I have a few JMG's and I love the huge flowers I wish all my MG's were as pretty and as large.
I am growing a ton of new to me things the year but I would have to say that the JMG's are my favorite.
Thank You all for posting the lovely pictures of your JMG's I do so love them all.
:}
rh

Servants_heart - Could you post a picture of the flowers that you got that you were asking about that started this thread...I'd like to see what you have...

Emma - the first picture of the flower that you posted here
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1729884
looks like the Ipomoea muricata,which is actually a redduish Ipomoea turbinata...although the flower is issuing from the vine with the rounded heart shaped leaves mostly visible to the right of the flower,I see leaves in the lower left that have a definite more elongated look with a peculiar notched lobing to the upper lobes...what plant do these leaves belong to...
The second picture that you posted of the leaves that you posted here
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1730303
is definitely Ipomoea macrorhiza as evidenced by the distinctive leaves as posted to the database here

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/10033/

The third picture you posted here
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1730310
of the 'thorny' stems,leaves and seedpod of your 'Red Moonvine' is consistent with the flower that you said issued from it,as it shows the reddish colored stems,rounded heart shaped leaves and reflexed seedpod that is characteristic of the reddish Ipomoea turbinata that it actually is...

Taylor - I'm not sure which picture you are referring to when you say the second one that Emma posted,because the second one is the Ipomoea macrorhiza leaves,so to try to answer your question about the differences of the species that you asked about,I will provide some further information for reference on all of the species that you mentioned and hopefully in the process answer your question

Ipomoea cairica is here,please take note that this is not a night flowering species and the distinctive shape of the multi-lobed palmate leaves

http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/53527/index.html

Ipomoea sagittata is not a night blooming species and has distinctive arrow shaped leaves
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/70856/index.html

More pictures of Ipomoea macrorhiza
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/65128/
the degree of curvature of the entire corolla coupled along with the ruffling of the corolla edges and the somewhat distinctive coloration to the throat of the Ipomoea macrorhizza is very characteristic of this species...
Here are some nice high resolution photos of the plant provided by Mollybee

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/8741/

Ipomoea macrorhiza in the only picture in the database that seems to show any appreciable degree of pinkish tinting to the still obviously frilly corolla

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/50519/

Ipomoea macrorhiza leaves and seedpods as provided by Mollybee

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/10033/

The sepals of Ipomoea macrorhiza are shown here in the only closeup of the sideview of the flowerbuds as provided by QueenB

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/56550/

Here is a closeup of a fully dried seedpod of Ipomoea macrorhiza

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/52780/

Here is the correction comment that I added to the database picture posted as Ipomoea muricata,which is actually Ipomoea macrorhiza
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/477494/

Ipomoea turbinata
The only picture in the database that shows a sideview of the corolla is this one added by Onalee...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/54954/
this photo also shows some Ipomoea purpurea leaves and sepals mixed in with the Moonvine and it does not show a closeup of the corolla sideview,but does show enough of the corolla sideview to see that the sepals are actually very close to the sepals of Ipomoea alba...as added to the database by Htop here

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/85370/


The outside corolla tube of Ipomoea purga is most often whitish near the base deeply colored for most of the mid-section and whitish at the top portion of the unopened flowerbud...The flowers are a deep scarlet -pink with the ribs either being of a lighter more pink color through lighter shades including a creamy white...the plant usually does not have fully pigmented corollas until it attains a maturity of at least 2 years...the leaves are an elongated heart shape...often having an accentuated rounded or notched lobing above the petiole junction...similar to the leaves of the unusual leaves in the left corner of the flower picture that Emma posted here and Ipomoea alba strain shown here

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/11179/


and the I.turbinata leaf in the upper right here
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/85019/
,although the 'elongated leaf shape shown in the I.turbinata picture is probably more the result of the angle that the picture was taken,than the actual shape of the leave...but none(!) of the other leaves in any of the moonvine pictures in the entire database look like the leaves of Ipomoea purga

This is Ipomoea setosa as a check into the database will show
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/106134/index.html
showing the stems leaves and flowers with all relevant data needed for quick identification...with the exception of the setosa spines on the peduncle and pedicels,the spines on the setosa do not look the same as the spines on the turbinata,'muricata' or purga,as the pictures posted clearly show the spines on the setosa stems to be shaped more pointed and with the base of the spines contrasting coloration that I made a definite point of showing in the pictures I posted...the spines on the Ipomoea purga tend to be a whitish color and will extend into roots if the plant senses that it can root...


The seeds of Ipomoea setosa are roughly the size and shape of Ipomoea alba ,but can vary in color from a light beige to almost black and almost always start out with long hairs along the edges,but this can be lost during handling...the seeds of Ipomoea macrorhizza are darkly colored brown with long hairs along the edges that can also become dislodged during handling..

The seeds of Ipomoea turbinata and Ipomoea purga can be various shades of a tannish-brown to a darker almost black and never hairy at all...
Seedpods that reflex(e.g.,Ipomoea alba and Ipomoea turbinata) will do so in less than one week from successful fertilization...I have Ipomoea setosa seedpods that are ripening at this moment and will post pictures when they are more distinctly developed,but I will most emphatically attest that they do not reflex...

Flowers on all of the above species can appear as almost white except for a tinge of coloration and when this is the case on a picture alone to identify,this can be a bit more challenging,but this is not(!) the case in this instance...
The diameter of the flower and the degree to which the stamens and pistil extend outwards past the opening of the throat are also important aspects to keep in mind and to look at when trying to identify a taxa including cultivar...
I would like to make yet another(!) appeal(!) to people to please(!) post pictures of the sideviews(!) of the flowers and the sepals at all stages including the unopened flowerbuds,the sepals at the base of the opened flower and the sepals on the almost matured seedpods...as these are important(!) keys/tools in helping to identify the plants..

A suggestion ...if you want to add (!) solid credibility to the accurate identification of any(!) mg taxa,I suggest refraining from quoting highly questionable sources and/or otherwise evidencing a substantial lack of credibility on the part of the 'clinician'....just one(!) example that I chose to comment on is here and I madea very definitive statement on this......although I could go alot (!) further...take it along with however many grains of salt you feel are called for...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/72396/index.html

Generally speaking,it is the case, that if I don't see any real evidence of substantial knowledge in the form of credible photographic or written contributions,in the form of objective(!) correct(!) information clarifying(!) the differences on any species,cultivar or any other degree of taxa to the database,threads or anywhere(!) else for that matter...when a person simply attaches their hokey names to cultivars that in most cases are older than they are...I would strongly consider the credibility of information that issues from that particular source, to be dubious at best...especially in light of any 'new' creations that have issued from the same...I currently still see alot of people posting pictures of a lavender-pink MG that comes from seeds 'directly from Japan', but I clearly see it in the database under yet another relatively 'new' 'creation with a 'new' name attached to it...I'm just gonna wait until people with enough 'savy' figure that one out for themselves...I'm just saying what needs(!) to be said...and I don't want to ever hear from anybody(!),that I didn't speak up when speaking up needed to be done...in a civil,but firm manner...

So Taylor,Why is it not setosa,because the leaves,stem and seedpod are distinctly not Ipomoea setosa,nor are the flowers or leaves that of Ipomoea macrorhiza or Ipomoea purga...the flower is (!) Ipomoea turbinata,the reddish form still being called by the outdated term of Ipomoea muricata...

I believe I have provided sufficient information to answer the 'questions' you asked of me,but if there are some details that you are unable to gather from your usual sources,including your own posted photographs...please do not hesitate to ask for any further clarifications...

TTY'all


P.S. - Taylor,do the pedicels on your I.macrorhiza reflex or not...just wondering...

This message was edited Sep 1, 2005 6:38 AM

This message was edited Sep 1, 2005 11:47 PM

This message was edited Sep 2, 2005 1:15 AM

RON_CONVOLVULACEAE--I will try to get a photo and get to a library branch that has the correct drive to upload from digital memory card. My computer has no floppy drive while the library only has floppy so you see my problem I think??

You sound like a horticultrist or something. I get confused right away with all this technical talk about the different types of MG! hehehe Whew!! When I have time I need to sit down and SLOWLY read your posts here!! Can't wrap my mind around them right now!! Bonnie

Ron,
THANKS VERY MUCH!
wOw --- that really cleared up any confusion on the Lavender/Red/Purple MoonFlower Vines. I appreciate this info.

In answer to your question, the other leaves in this photo
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1729884
are Ipomoea alba.

Emma

When trying to identify different species of Morning Glories...becoming familiar with the names of the species in question and some of the botanical terms used to refer to the different plant(s) parts will probably be a good idea...

Here are the definitions of some of the terms that I used in my explanation above that are I consider basic essentials to be familiar with

corolla - one of the 'inner' parts of a flower consisting of one entire petal or group of petals

The entire visible part of the flower above the reddish-green sepals at the base is the corolla
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/86512/
The cluster of buds to the upper right of the flower are attached to one peduncle,but each individual bud will have it's own individual smaller stem ,which is the pedicel and the spine covered leaf stem clearly visible is called the petiole

pedicel - the branch of and leading to one flower and resultant fruit

peduncle - the stem of an inflorescence containing multiple pedicels

petiole - the stem of a leaf

Here are two buds each with their own pedicel,which are attached at their base to the longer peduncular stem
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/84213/
reflexed seedpods - seedpods where the pedicel bends causing the top of the seedpod to face the ground
This photo posted by Emma shows a seedpod that is reflexed,and the dried up sepals still attached to the seedpod
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1730310
sepals - the usually green leaf-like structures at the base of the outermost part of a flower,usually being retained and still visible on the outside of the seedpod ...their primary function is to protect by enclosing the inner flower parts...but they are important tools for identification of the different species at all stages when they are present from flower bud,opened flower and at different stages of maturity of the ripening seedpod

This photo posted by Htop shows the sepals at the base of the flower
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/85370/

I hope that these picture will help to give an easier understanding of the terms that I used...if there are other terms that I used that you do not understand,please let me know what they are and I will try to give pictures to show exactly what I am referring to...
Hope this helps...

I have removed this post due to newbie-itis. I placed the post on a new thread.
Apologies.
raydio (Robert)

This message was edited Sep 17, 2005 3:49 AM

Here is a closeup of the calyx of I. setosa.
http://www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Plant/Conv/Ipo-pink-cal.html
raydio

This message was edited Sep 18, 2005 8:19 PM

I found the colors of flowers to be affected mainly by the soil nutrients. For example I did an experiment one year and planted several plants (of the same variety) in different areas of soil and had interesting results. Some flowers were dark, others were a shade lighter and even some were so pale they looked almost white. In one case the purple "lavender" moonflower we've grown was almost red because of the high acid level in our soil. That was the only difference from the others we grew. Acidic soil caused many morning glories to be dark. The blue morning glories we've grown are greatly affected by acidic soil causing them to be almost as dark as the Ipomoea indica, Blue Dawn flower. I think these names are given loosely for many plants. Some people think they have a totally different plant, but most likely it is just the soil nutrients making them appear different. That's just my opinion from my own growing experience.
Dennis

This message was edited Sep 18, 2005 3:06 PM

I agree that the ph of soil can affect the color of some species and strains,but the plants resultant of the seeds supplied by the European suppliers,originated in Asia and being called 'Ipomoea muricata'...these plants have had more of a rosey-lavender color than the seeds that originated from suppliers who obtained their seeds from Mexico and other areas of the Caribbean,Central and South America...I think the color that resulted from these different strains of Ipomoea turbinata does seem to have a considerable 'built-in' tendency,that can be changed by selecting for the color,as well as altered to some degree by the soil ph...

My macrorhiza, (lavender moonvine) is a perenniel here and forms the huge tuber and has fuzzy seed pods..Also it's easy to tell the difference..The leaves are ruffled on the edges, and not like regular vines in this family.. My red moonvine(light pink actually), has thorny vines and is an annual even for me ..It has the average hear-shaped leaves and the bloom is nowhere near red.

Larkie