Equilibrium, What do you think of the water garden so far???

I have used tordone which is 24d and it works it's about the strongest stuff you can buy...I do like you and often have to redo ltr... one problem is tordon goes to the roots and will hurt or kill anything touching the roots ...brush begone would most likely work too especially on smaller stuff ...I have been using tordone on stump(s) ,emphisis on suckered (S) chain sawed 30ft trees.. I don't think brush be gone would be successful on larger stuff but possible.You are correct time of year is important ...during domancy is best ..once the leaves appear your success will be LESS... David

BrushBGon as well as RoundUp can be quite effective on larger trees. It's all about how you apply it and when as well as the species. Girdling, although it takes longer, will work quite effectively too. All you need to do is strip enough bark off to expose a 10' band or so of the cambium layer of the tree and you basically strangle it. Most people are far too impatient for this process and once they discover they've got a problem, they want it taken care of and out of their sight right then and there. Seems to me that you have a chainsaw. Good for you. Chainsaw is a great tool. You can drag that up and down the trunk of many species knicking it as you go. Now paint the exposed cambium layer with your chemical of choice and you'll probably kill it. I do this quite frequently so that I have dead trees in the landscape for wildlife. The roots won't fail for a very long time so no sense removing a great vantage point for raptors and such.

This message was edited Aug 29, 2006 11:32 PM

My candidate for a horrid invasive plant recently pushed at garden centers and in catalogs is:
drum roll please.............

Ampelopsis brevipedunculata 'Elegans'
Common Name: Porcelain Berry

This plant shoud be banned from the trade. It is the Kudzu of the north!

Equilibrium, the books will be ordered. I have one small bog garden, but the plants are very pedestrian, iris etc. Sundews grow in low spots around here natrually. There is a 110 acre parcel of sand barrens locally that is unfortunately about to be developed. I may rescue a few if I can get going in time. This parcel also has gentian and orchids. When the developer did the environmental required prior to development he conveniently had it done in August when the water table always dries up. These people are hard to combat.

Don't you just love it when they introduce new cultivars of a nasty plant. Technically, the cultivar is not the same plant as the straight species so when people go to search for the plant, they have difficulty finding information as to whether it may be invasive or noxious. We have a lot of problems with Bradford Pear (Calleryana spp.) and Purple Loosestrife around here for just that reason. They pump put new cultivars of that Callery Pear so fast you can't even keep up with the introductions from the year before or the year before that.

gag with a few tears. Not much you can do when the bulldozers are revving other than to quick fast notify native plant societies so that they can initiate contact and request permission to dig up anything for transplant to another site. It's the only way to save those plants. And, someday, you may be able to donate them back to a not for profit organization such as The Nature Conservancy so that they can reintroduce them to a new ecosystem. Keep good records. I'm really sorry about what's about to happen. No sense dwelling on it though.

Say snapple, please let me know what you think of those two books you ordered once you finish reading them. They are some of my favorites. They didn't rub my nose in issues or make me feel guilty about past plant mistakes yet they raised my level of awareness while at the same time heightened my ability to comprehend the complexity of some of the issues we are currently facing.

Invasive plants are usally "found out " after it's too late ... A good story ...back in th 50's my father had about 360 acres of Illinois farm land ...he was both a conservationist and hunter and went to the local extention sevice to ask advise on what to plant for wildlife. Well they were really hot on the "multiflora rose" ...fast growing to 8 ft ot taller in just a couple of years and make great wind breaks and bariiers for birds and wildlife of all sorts ... Well I really don't need to continue do I ......;>) After about 5-6 years in the late 50's early 60's it was declared a noxios plant and basically banned or at least warned agaist planting ...See birds again spread it everywhere and it's root system is 12ft deep at maturity...and not even roundup will surly kill it... Our farm was a mess and most of our neighbors as well ...but the birds and wildlife did surly love it...we are still 50 years ltr trying to control it!!! .... ;>0 David

No sense crying over spilt milk. I've found that my extension office comes right out and tells us that they don't have a Master Gardener on the phones or available who is concentrated in invasives or noxious weeds. Our DNR here is Illinois was also pushing Russian Olives for a while there. It happens, we know so much more than what we knew back then. That multiflora rosa is one of the worst ones for me to work with because it grabs my clothing and the clothing of other volunteers and I end up looking like I got in a fight with a cat because of some of the scratches. I've also taken a few good spills because of that plant knocking me off balance when I've come in contact with it and other volunteers have taken some good spills too getting caught in it. Mutlflora rosa can be eradicated but you almost need to work with those elbow length rose gloves to protect yourself as well as those clear goggles while you're going after it.

Say, you people are aware that Dave and Terry added a brand new forum so that you can go and discuss how to control, manage, and eradicate these plants so you can grow what you want... right?

It's a brand new forum-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/invasives/all/

Need a plant identified that you suspect is invasive or noxious, post a photo there.

There are a few people who can identify with your frustrations over there. I also see quite a few who would be in a position to help offer suggestions on how to deal with non-native invasives or with aggressive natives.

Maybe some new threads could be started over there if anyone was looking for a spot to ask for help. I also see a thread where members can post which plant(s) is most problematic for them.

Just a thought and it might be nice to increase activity level over there with some new threads.

i have been watching this thread from the beginning. i wanted to plant bamboo this summer. i didn't know that it was invasive. i want to thank you equilibrium, myersphcf and snapple45, you guys kept me from making a big mistake. i added the new forum to watchlist. thanks again, belinda

Equil....We must live in the same area ;>) I'm from springfield and the master gardener program here SUCKS BIG TIME. The guy who started ours was great but the "helper bees" are worthless...I don't even bother calling anymore...My father before he died a few years ago was also talked into Russian Olives by these nit wits...isn't that a coincidence.... he planted it on the same farm coincidentally where the multiflora roses use to be!!!... I hate it but it at least doesn't seem to spread ( maybe it does but hasnt as far as I've seen at least not EVERYWHERE) but unless you need 20 foot high sceening your up the creek cause trimming it is almost impossible without making it look like a fence posts with dreadlocks ;>) David

Aren't there clumping bamboo that isn't supposed to spread? I was considering that for a corner of my yard but you've scared me out of the idea.

The Master Gardener Program has a place. It does appear our educational programming is somewhat behind the times though. I must admit that I don't bother calling any longer either. I asked for help identifying species and was repeatedly told that they needed to see the plant and that there was no other way but for me to drive in. None of them have e-mail. I repeatedly brought in specimens for identification and about all I ever received from them was the blank deer in the headlamps stare. Many of them are in the lawn, roses, and vegetable mode and they never shifted gears. I believe our issues stem from the phone time requirements. Many states require their volunteers to go out into the field to get in their hours. Our MGs are all phone time and that's where we drop the ball.They don't seem to have that hands on experience. Let's face it, other states have great Master Gardener programs, ours is political and behind the times. Take Michigan for example... they've all got access to e-mail addresses and if you bring a specimen in, chances are pretty good somebody would at the very least be able to give you the genus. Our focus here is on residential nursery bought plants. David, you may not be seeing the results of your choice to plant Russian/Autumn Olives but there are some very real concerns with that plant. You might want to take a drive on up our way where they've been overplanted them for a few decades when people were being talked into using them up here. They're excaping cultivation. Needless to say, we've got issues on our hands and if you don't already,,, you will.

Katy ...yes clumpers are OK...and may do really well in your area??? ...here in Illinois my experience is that they have dieback even during mild winters...and the one plant (of clumpers) I still have( in partial shade, which may be some of the problem, I don't remember the variety I got it from raintree)) looks about like it did 7 years ago when i planted it ...but it didn't spread.... unfortunatly it didn't do much of anything period!!!!

Equil we have cut down and deep sixed all our Russian Olives...in fact I think we ended up having them bulldozed and burnt ...they were humoungous!!!!.... that little part of our history is finished!!! David

Katy, I'm uncomfortable with clumpers but perhaps Bogman would be in a better position to explain.

Dave, I deep sixed mine too!

Equilibrium. I just saw your pics of Sarracenia. WOW!

Equilibrium, in addition to Noah's Garden and Sand County Almanac I also ordered Gardening With Carnivorus Plants; Pitcher Plants In Cultivation And In The Wild. by Nick Romanowski. Enough already, please!

Hi, Nick Romanowski is ho hum. Quick, ditch it as I'm sure they haven't shipped yet. Get Don Schnell's book "Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada". You'll be much happier.

Equilibrium,

I'm still looking for photos of the water garden. I've been deep into planning a lecture I'm giving this Saturday at the Alliance botanical garden assn. on bog gardening.

Did someone mention the genus Fargesia? These are the clumping bamboos and there are at least 4 that are hardy to zone 5. The species I'm familiar with are: murieliae, nitida (I have this one), robusta, and rufa. if anyone wants to read more about these visit the WHOLESALE ONLY website www.klynnurseries.com when prompted username is: klyn, password: route84 They also carry our only native bamboo Arundinaria gigantea, have a boatload of bog plants and some rarther uncommon natives to drool over. I have the catalog as one of my favorite references even they are wholesale. I grew up with the Klyn boys...they've since sold out and moved south but the nursery is still a great source of information.

murieliae, nitida .......This is the one I have too( i rememmbered when i saw your post!! I don't know your experience but mine suffers some winter die back and really hasn't grown a snit in 7 years And I am in zone 5b and our winters of late have been mild for the past 4 or 5....I will admit it is in partial shade which may be some of the problem but in rich central Illinios soil and all my "running" bamboos, that I deep sixed years ago, grew like WEEDS up to 10 -15 ft tall pr year YUK...as I said i have seen NO spreading of this clumper so that is GOOD and it is "pretty"...but rather unimpressive compared to it's "running" brothers ( sisters)

BogMan! Bad bad bad BogMan! You posted a link to a 300+ plant wholesale only site??? That is akin to taking an alcoholic and placing him in a cage in the middle of a liquor warehouse with boxes of booze all out of arm's reach from the cage.

Sorry E!

When I see something I want from Klyn, I just call up my local garden center and order through him or I look online to find a source. By the way did I tell you I found seed for the Baystar vine, Schisandra glabra?? Hopefully I'll have dozens of seedlings in Spring to propagate and share...considering it is federally threatened and NO has plants of it!

(pant pant pant, running for bag to put over mouth to be able to stop hyperventilating) That's a southeastern native trailing vine isn't it? Wouldn't I be a little bit too far north for that? I could try to grow it and propagate it for the sole purpose of hanging on to it to pass on to somebody later on in the future who is gearing up for a restoration but I'm thinking that although I now have Schisandra lust that I might not be the best candidate for this little pretty. What do you think? I've got an upland woodland area that would enable the plant to sprawl but that area is still being cleaned of Japanese Honeysuckle so the soil is still contaminated. I might need a few more years for those allelopathic chemcials to leach out before I can plant anything there. You really are a bad boy! First the Klyn wholesale catalog and now the offer of a gift of a federally endangered species. Holy moly great balls of fire, I am beginning to feel pangs of withdrawal hitting me.

Sarracenia? Schisandra glabra? Holy moly yourself ! I can't keep up with you people. Because I order trees for a local municipality for the tree planting program I have access to a few wholesale/government catalogs. I am waiting for the 2006 passwords. The best one is Lake County Nursery. I'll wager the bogman knows this one. Others I have used are North Branch and Snows Nursery. The Klyn one is huuuuuuge. I will never get my nose out of that one, except long enough to go to TSC and get a rubbermaid stock tank. Incidentally did I tell you the story of how I dug my little 6x6x3 bog garden and couldn't get up out of the hole? ( I am 5'.) My husband is fond of this one. Suffice it to say that from now on I will always keep some milk crates handy to make a step out!

suppose I might just as well stick the bag over the top of my whole head.

Well, I can't compete with you getting stuck down in a pit and I certainly hope you weren't stuck down their too long but I did get stuck in a huge dumpster once.

Disclaimer- what follows are my beliefs so don't cyber slap me if they are diametrically opposed to yours, ok? Somebody asked why I was opposed to rock bottom ponds so I figured what the heck… we've all sniffed each other out and can handle differences of opinion so I'm going for it.

Hang on to your chairs and keyboards folks because this subject can get very emotionally charged. There is a very large player in the field of ponding called Aquascapes. Aquascapes has a magazine and has ponding chapters across the US with new chapters forming probably as I type. They have massive advertising campaigns out there. Their marketing is unparalleled in the industry. Aquascapes enjoys a tremendous following. Since their inception, they have been including rocks in a disproportionately high number of their pond designs, probably over 95%. None of the Aquasapce ponds I have seen have had a bottom drain and few had depths greater than 2.5' and that was pushing it. Aquascapes espouses the benefits of "maintenance free" rock bottom ponds and if I am not mistaken, one of the reasons originally cited may have been to reduce the damage of UV rays to liners by covering them up with rock and one young man mentioned that the rock was to hold the liner down so it didn't float up. This left me scratching my head given liners aren't going to float up if water levels are maintained and there are no leaks and additionally research articles I ran across stated UV concerns were unfounded. Aquascape rock bottom ponds are allegedly "maintenance free"… at least that's what I keep hearing from people who own them and that was what I heard my neighbor being told by her service contract provider and she agreed.

For the record, my neighbor was told not to feed her fish. Reason being was that fish food could pollute her water and kill her fish. Interesting given all she was sold in her pond package was a skimmer with a pump inside of it for her 3000 gallon pond and no mention was ever made of a bottom drain being an option. Her pond was constructed in all of 2 days. I suspect the addition of a drain might have reduced the profit margin on the initial install as well as on future service contracts.

I am of the opinion there is no benefit to having stone or gravel on the bottom of any pond other than for aesthetic purposes which seems to defy logic for me as within a few years both a bare bottom pond and a rock bottom pond seem to look the same anyway. Rocks on the bottom of a pond can (certainly not always) create a deadly environment for fish. If one has a small pond (say under a thousand gallons or so) and/or little or no fish load, one can probably get away with using these types of materials if one is prepared to commit to ongoing labor intensive maintenance. Bare bottom ponds with bottom drains statistically are in the best interests of fish in that mortality appears to be reduced considerably over the long haul. A few larger rocks placed on plant shelves and arranged around the bottom will be fine to create that au naturelle look we all strive for but more than that is probably going to leave you pulling out your hair and cursing in about 10 years if not sooner. I use slate for decorative value these days, it's a flat surface and easy to clean.

Let's take a look at the species of fish that most of us keep in our ponds- koi. Koi have some really naughty habits. They, like goldfish, like to root around the bottoms of ponds because… well… they are bottom feeders. Some stones can injure our naughty babies. I've seen open wounds on koi and scales missing because of their proclivity to root around on the bottom of rock bottom ponds. This means pack up baby and go to the vet (providing you can find a vet locally to treat you pet). Or, you can leave it and hope for the best however missing scales and sores are an open invitation for pathogens to enter your pet's body. Another factor associated with the use of rocks on the bottom of ponds would be that of actual water volume. We all know that koi need a lot of volume because they grow to be big fish. Many of us calculate our water volume of our ponds before adding a ton or so of rocks, this little oversight can be a major cause for concern for a number of reasons so if you have a rock bottom pond, best to attempt to figure out what your actual volume of water is before there is a crisis and you need to know. For those in northern reaches who overwinter their pets in shallow ponds, please know the addition of rocks will decrease the actual depth of your ponds. In my area, we seem to need a minimum pf 3.5' in depth to ensure our fish don't end up as fishicles frozen timelessly for us to find in spring when the big thaw comes.

Backing up to my neighbor and her "maintenance free" Aquascapes rock bottom pond (which is absolutely knock down drag out beautiful by the way), in her first year she chose the service contract where they came out monthly to check on her pond. In the second year, she kept the same contract. Heavy rains crashed her pH in the second year of pond bliss and she knew nothing about pond chemistry… and couldn't get a hold of her pond man… so she lost a bunch of fish. She finally got a hold of him for an emergency visit ($$$) and he came out and suggested that as long as the fish were dead, it was an opportune time to shut down her pond to clean all the rock. I have no idea what her bill was to shut down her entire pond by draining it to be able to remove and clean all the rock and to refill it but I'm sure it was pricey. This will be my neighbor's fifth season of "maintenance free" pond ownership. Last year I reached in and picked up a few of her rocks, they were black underneath from all the build up of "bad bacteria". Fortunately, my neighbor is a doctor and realized that might not be the greatest situation. Her service contract on her "maintenance free" pond now includes weekly additions of bottled bacteria to maintain her pond's health and she was told to expect to have to tear down her entire pond every 3 years or so but that the addition of vacuuming services to her contract might extend the need to drain her pond entirely to clean it to 6-7 years. Yup, that's a "maintenance free" pond all right. She's my neighbor and she is an incredibly intelligent woman but what I would like to know is what it costs her annually to be "maintenance free". Anyone getting the visual of The Emperor And His New Clothes yet? I have to live here so I don't say much but I have gone running over to her house with baking soda when she can't get a hold of her pond man after heavy rains. Did I mention we live by the Des Plaines River Basin… that area that has experienced massive flooding due to record breaking spring rains here the past few years.

Rocks can be a nesting place for pollutants. What accumulates in and amongst rocks can create an ongoing need to diligently keep on top of a pond's water chemistry. Water testing kits are a necessary evil when one owns and maintains a pond but it sure does seem as if the people with rock bottom ponds are constantly fiddling with something and going through a tremendous number of test kits. If you must add something to your pond, please consider steering clear of rocks and add a bottom drain. All of the fish waste will go through the bottom drain and in to a filter where the waste will be trapped before the water is returned to your pond. Including a bottom drain in your design for a future pond or adding a bottom drain to an existing pond may very well be the single greatest thing you can do for your pond.

With what I have seen out there, I think… no I know that I love the look of the rock bottom ponds when the water is crystal clear and when the rocks are free of algal growth but if I ever went that route, I would feel the need to mortar them in place to avoid debris getting trapped and I'd have to add a bottom drain to the design as well as a skimmer. I really don't want the work and I really don't want to get stuck with the bill of paying somebody else to do the work and I acknowledge that I can be incredibly lazy and cheap by nature. I have enough trouble keeping up with the sludge at the bottom of my fresh water fish tank as it is and that thing stinks if it builds up too much. I can't imagine what a rock bottomed pond would smell like if it wasn't maintained regularly and emptied in its entirety every 6-7 years. The other issue here is that there are kids. Kids who name fish and get attached to them and flush funerals can be very traumatic. We're bare bottom now and for us, that's best.

Eeek!

Oh sorry that's Equilibrium, I sure hope you have one of those voice/typing programs where you can just speak and the words show up on the screen. I tried that once but had to make so many corrections that it took more time to correct than to type.

Yes we are all grown up and can take a few differing opinions. I like my rock bottom, yes it can be a pain to clean sometimes, but E, in all the years we've corresponded when have you ever known me to put in an EASY garden???? My previous "pond" had a liner bottom it was just as easy/hard to maintain. While I like my fish if they beat themselves up well hey that's their own darn fault!

I must agree with you about that aqua___ place. Being in the landscaping business I get their magazines etc. and they are about nothing more than the bottom line of profits...for themselves and their contractors of course. I've reprimanded customers who were told they should drain their ponds twice a year because of the algae and water clarity. "What do you think changing the water does?" I would ask, Bring in more nutreints to make the algae grow so they can charge you again later for the same problem! Of course several of them said I should open my own pond/bog/gardening service, to which I replied "What a 45 year old who can't swim very well driving around with a dingy on the roof of his VW...correcting pond problems, not a pretty sight!" Oh well, we each have our own ways and your rockless pond is a lot easier on the back :~)

Snapple 45 I missed the Lake county catalog! That's where I grew up right around the corner. Do you have a link to their web site? Looks to me as though you're in the heart of Emerald Ash Borer country.

Well have a good laugh and look at the photo...remember don't burn the fire chief!

I had not heard of this POND builder sounds like a tupperware dealer or some cult driven informertial... Everyone has differrnt ideas on the Best this and that...but I must admit having someone else "do" your pond seems a bit foreign to me ...yah I could afford it but half the fun was doing it myself. Any pond that is adv. as maintenance free is bogus IMHO even the most anal pondster must do some work on their high falutin mechanisms . One of the first ponsters I met had natural ponds with NO filtrations pumps or filters...they were gorgeous but I thought they were at the time not perfect enough.... my experiences have taught me that nothing in life is perfect and like the person who didn't want folds in there rubber liner ( IMHO this goes agaist the laws of science) those who strive for perfection will NOT live happy lives...enjoy your imperfect pond make it as nice as possible for fish and frogs or whatever and enjoy the fruits of your own labor yes it could probably be improved and cleaner , clearer etc but it will never be perfect!!!... well enough amature philosophy for tonight!!! ...David

RE: Rock Bottom Ponds, see my post of Feb 12. As I said so far, so good. I did not mention that I have both a savio filter and skimmer with a 3600 gph pondmaster pump to a 3' waterfall which provides good areation. And I have big fat koi. Which I love. And have named. And they follow me around the pond. Darn it we've bonded.

I don't have a 2006 password for the Lake County Nursery yet. I have their paper catalog. http://www.lakecountynursery.com/ Dream big!

Yup, we are in the heart of ash borer country. The area, Lucas County Ohio, is losing thousands upon thousands of trees. We (Village of Holland) are struggling to replant and remain "canopy neutral". Our community has surveyed all ash trees, private and public and have a replacement plan in place. We expect to lose 100%. The program the ODNR has in place has been woefully deficient and totally underfunded. They have almost given up. Their plan was to identify infestations and cut all trees down within a one mile radius. There are so many infestations so large that they can't get to all the trees. They started one cut and quit at 10,000 trees! They didn't even get them all. It's nuts. If I lived in a community anywhere within twenty miles of a known infestation I would be asking my community leaders to cut a 360 degree "infestation break" of a mile in all directions. Lose a few to save many would be my motto. The alternative is to let the beetle get em and replant any other species. The ODNR seems hapless at this point. Small cities, town and villages are suddenly faced with huge costs for cutting and replanting with absolutely no help from the state. I can guarantee one thing, as the chairman of the tree commission where I live there will be no monoculture planting. The last planting I did last fall was to replace trees lost due to a sewer and road project. The plan included four species of trees all interplanted. If we have another insect or disease outbreak at least we would only lose 25%. The village is going to treat a few ash trees with Merit next spring. The state will allow it if the trees are monitored by someone credentialed. We have a commemorative planting that we just dont want to lose. At the very least we want to be able to tell the community that we tried.

Incidentally we are still dealing with gypsy moth. The state sprayed BT four years ago and there was a significant reduction, however the population climbed again last year. Now the state doesnt have the money to spray bt and individuals towns and cities dont have the budgets either. I don't even want to talk about how hard it is to educate people about spraying anything. I am ready to throw in the towel and let em get et! I have oaks of my own and don't know what to do to protect them. I will probably put the burlap bands on and hope for the best. Not much else except spraying with Sevin and I dont want that. I don't want 200 year old dead oaks either. I dont have any egg cases, but every single adjacent neighbor does, which is odd. It is just a matter of time though.

Mostly lurking on this thread, but I had to start laughing when I read the posts about aquasca....., the mega marketing pond sellers! They have their own 'representative' stores and their slick marketing makes it look like they invented the nitrogen cycle all by themselves! Aren't they smart to have discovered that 'good bacteria' can break down the bad stuff? When I was doing the research for building my pond I took a close look at their products and found them to be really expensive for really mediocre quality. (The savio was definitely the best filter I saw, that's why I copied it! ) LOL Their claims of a 'maintenence free' pond just make me laugh. As if there really is such a thing. They are trying to sell a total pond 'lifestyle' with little clubs of other 'scapers'. They are definitely not the only pond builders up here who use rocks, however. I'd say that most of the professionally built ponds I saw during my research had rocks on the bottom, as well as everywhere else.
I put rocks in my pond because if I were a koi, I would be extremely bored not having any nice rocks to nose around in. Of course, I used river rocks and 'puget sound' rocks. They all have smooth edges.
Now, my two cents about invasive species and ordering through catalogs is this: what invades one part of the country doesn't necessarily invade another. For instance, I have a variegated elderberry that has been in the yard for probably 40 years. I love this tree. The birds love this tree. And I have never yet pulled a baby elderberry seedling anywhere in my yard. (Unlike the Mountain Ash, which is going to take over the world in this part of the country, and which I HATE!) The mulberry tree is not listed as invasive or noxious where I live. Likely it is a different mulberry from the ones in Illinois. It's my responsibility to make sure that what I order isn't invasive in my area. I'm not going to expect a nursery in Connecticut to stop selling stuff that's invasive here, if it's not invasive there. Nor do I expect them to be able to keep up with all the different things that are noxious or invasive in different parts of the country. Those lists change frequently. So the bottom line is, again, it's up to me to make sure I know what to plant.
This thread is sounding an awful lot like it belongs in the new forum. I've seen that new forum, but it's too hot for my blood!

Katymac, check out Jade Mountain Bamboo in Spanaway. They sell all kinds of bamboo and the owner will be able to steer you clear of the invasive types. He sells plenty of clumpers, and also some very small types that are nice. My sister gave me a nice clump of black bamboo today, but it's a pretty aggressive plant. I'm going to have to put it in a large pot and sink it down into the soil, leaving the top 1/3 free! LOL I just love the black stems, but I just don't have the time or energy to deal with runaway bamboo.

The mulberry tree is not listed as invasive or noxious where I live. Likely it is a different mulberry from the ones in Illinois. It's my responsibility to make sure that what I order isn't invasive in my area. I'm not going to expect a nursery in Connecticut to stop selling stuff that's invasive here, if it's not invasive there. Nor do I expect them to be able to keep up with all the different things that are noxious or invasive in different parts of the country. Those lists change frequently. So the bottom line is, again, it's up to me to make sure I know what to plant.

I would expect the mulberry ...unless it's a differnt variety and wont "mix" would be invasive everywhere it can reproduce itself by seed... like bamboo that speads I don't think the area matters unless your in the desert or totally rock area. Most folks are clueless when they buy stuff .."oh its so purdy" or "it really grows fast". AND I would have to disagree with you... It is the sellers resposibility to at least warn the buyer of possible consequenses. This is true especially for mail order perations ...local nuseries I suppose should also. Its sort of like cigarrete warning labels ..I don't think the buyer should be left to do extensive research him or hersef to find out this info. Much of which may not be available except in obscure venues like this one...David

We are bombarded with disclaimers on products these days and people are becoming desensitized. Truth be known, it is doubtful more than 1 in a hundred would read a label on a plant beyond the common name anyway. If anyone expects a nursery employee (usually a teen) to be in a position to warn a buyer of possible consequences, their expectations may be unrealistic. I'd be happy if the wholesalers stopped using common names exclusively and switched over to common name and Latin name. At least those interested in purchasing a plant could research it.

Given what we know, it is truly up to us right now to educate ourselves.

In total agreement here. I am always amazed at how much more I know about things than the general nursery worker. The best nurseries in this area have information about invasive species that are troublesome in this area, but many don't.
It is indeed unfortunate that much of the gardening public is ignorant of which things are invasive, aggressive, or noxious, but that is very unlikely to change.
I fear we will have to agree to disagree about how universal invasiveness is across all climate zones. Our extremely wet winters and equally extremely dry summers disallow many species to invade this area, whereas they are constant problems in the eastern area of the U.S. Other things, like purple loosestrife, continue to be a major problem in both areas. We also don't have the problem with species such as water hyacinth, which cannot our winters as a general rule, and therefore cannot form the giant mats of foliage that out-compete our native flora.
Now, the nasty bullfrog is another issue, altogether! I have waxed fairly poetic on this forum in the past about the demise of our native tree frogs due to this pond bully .
And that brings us back to bogman's most recent project.
How's it going, Bogman?

Rana catesbeiana is a North American native species but indeginous exclusively to east of the Rockies. On your side of the Rockies it's an exotic alien invader that is recognized as being invasive. Excellent pick to cite as an example Pixie.

If interested, more on how to address the presence of the Bullfrog out west at the link posted below. Scroll down for informtion on, "Humane Method For..."-
http://www.wec.ufl.edu/extension/FAQs_about_Frogs_and_Toads.htm

My aunt lives in Florida where they are having horrible problems with Cane Toads and Cuban Tree Frogs. I found that link above because of her.

In areas where Water Hyacinth can not currently over winter, the problem with it is not so much its ability to outcompete native aquatic vegetation but more so its rapid rate of growth that can completely blanket a body of water in one season even in a region where it allegedly is not deemed invasive. There are countless examples of massive native fish kills due to the introduction of this species into bodies of water where native fish are present that eek out a narrow living based on their ability to survive by hunting by sight. Water Hyacinth does about the same thing that exotic koi and goldfish introduced to their ecosystems does, impairs their ability to hunt. When they can't see, they don't eat, so they die. Simple as that. In an ideal world, people wouldn't take their excess water hyacinth and toss it into natural bodies of water to help "beautify" lakes and streams because everybody would know that it isn't in our best interests to do this. In an ideal world, people would never toss koi or goldfish fry into natural bodies of water so that they could root around on the bottom stirring things up so that native fish couldn't see to hunt because everybody would know that "relocating" exotic fish to any natural body of water is not a responsible act. But our world, like each and every one of us, is imperfect. We do the best we can. I don't think we're doing all that bad. Look how far we've come in just the last 10 years. Just like lead paint, people will come to view some of these species as equally hazardous, if not more so, to our health.

BogMan is scrounging through his personal photos looking for goodies to share. He'll be back.

Water Hyacinth ...yes you are corret on this the rate of growth is phenomenal...my wife put in two small plants a friend gave her and within 3 weeks i had to tell her to deep six it out ( she was not happy but what can I say). I can only imagine what it is like where it over winters!!!We have both bull frogs and leopard frogs and the the bulls definitly keep the lepords in check which is not good...our tree frogs have been uneffected by either but I've NEVER seen one in or near our ponds. We have a nice balance of garder snakes as well that keep the frog population down and dogs that keep the snake population down...the circle of life so to speak...I did have three hugh bull frogs die during the cold spell this past Dec...which is odd since I had NO fish kill at all go figure and I've got enough muck in the bottom of my ponds for them to live easily through the winter...oh well there are plenty of bull tad poles and I would guess smaller ones to take there place...David

Pixydish

I agree 100% with your views on invasiveness! It's our responsibility to garden rsponsibly since we should know what's invasive in our area. It is unrealistic to expect someone from, say here in Northeast OH to know what is invasive in WA and vise versa.Garden centers that sell locally should also be responsible and know what they are offering for local sale. It's the impulse sales and the local weekend gardeners who can cause problems with invasive species. Mail order companies are another story because they don't deal with impulse buyers as a rule. How many average Joe's order from specialty catalogs?? People see my Forest Farm, or Plant Delights, or Arrowhead alpines catalogs and think I'm nuts! "I'm not looking through a catalog with no pictures and only foreign (latin) names!". Unfortunately when I go to the nursery I have to translate my usual names (again latin) to something they can understand. I should have gotten my doctorate in Botany instead of becoming just a gardening nut with 30 years experience and NO degree! I have a couple of true botanists who are good friends and we enjoy getting together and playing our favorite game..."Stump the Botanist!"

If my bamboo gets away, and the New England Bamboo Companies containment system says if I followed instructions it won't, I've learned a lesson and the moment I find the containment has been compromised the entire garden gets dug up and all runners will be terminated! If it punctures the pond liner Oops, my bad!

here's a couple more photos I took a short while ago, the snow is mostly gone now. this first is of the stream bed that runs between the ponds that is not visible in any of the other pictures I've posted.

This is of both ponds looking south from the backyard up into the garden. You notice in all the pictures that there is a lot of liner still laying out. The landscaping around this is going in this year, a couple more boggy habitats, some experiments with marginally hardy things like Gunnera (which froze solid in Dec. and is now sprouting!), Sabol minor (a palm), and the above mentioned Schisandra glabra, as well as some somewhat normal plants. Can you tell I like the wild wierd and barely hardy?

Finally, here is a photo of the upper pond Showing the deck, and what we call the grotto area. I plan on putting bold foliage plants in this area. Basjoo banana, Mioga ginger from a local customer that WILL survive our winters, Gunnera against the house, etc. Of course you can see the bamboo too. this is P. aureosulcata there is also our native Canebrake Bamboo Arundinaria gigantea.

Snapple, I'm already bracing for the EAB epidemic! Everytime a customer gets leaf drop on an ash, usually anthracnose, I get a panicked call! Back in '98-'99 we had horrible Gypsy moth infestations. coupled with droughts thousands of oaks and beeches were killed. The woods are regenerating, I must say being also a native orchid nut the years following with the brighter light penetration the native orchids and wildflowers have been spectacular!

You are nothing short of an artist with the way you built that into the landscape and followed the contour of the land.

I too am bracing for the EAB and have been companion planting saplings within a few feet of existing Ash trees. The EAB has been documented within 100 miles of me as of last year. I am going to let my Ash go and am not going to even try to save them using chemicals as I tried that with a few Elms and my opinion is that doing so just prolongs the inevitable and leaves me with considerably less money to buy replacements. Leaving everything in place when they go will create biomass for the soil. All the little organisms will "eat them up yum yum" in no time flat after they topple. This will be my third year companion planting and I have quite a few species established near Ash and I'll go for about 20 more this year.

Bogman: Gunnera surviving the winter? I might try this plant. I have a 3' resin replica of a gunnera leaf I use as a fountain to a pool for the birds. Anything special you do for it? The pond is really something. Looking forward to more pics this summer.

Re: EAB. As you drive around this spring look for ash trees that have died back at the top. This means the borer cut off circulation the previous year. There is a native borer that can cause the same damage but is far less troublesome than the Emerald AB. If you see several trees close together in this condition then you need to look for D shaped holes and peel back the bark for confirmation. I couldn't be more serious about a "borer break" . Had we done this here (IF we could have done it) we would be much better off. In just one residential area alone we are going to lose 464 trees. It is like being stuck on the railroad tracks in a car with doors that won't open and a train coming at you.

Still leafing through the 321 page Klyn. Impressive.

Bogman, I have to ask too. Is there a gunnera that will survive here? I love that plant and have wanted one for years but I didn't know of any that were hardy enough to survive this far north. If you know of a variety please tell, because I have to get one (or two or three)!!!

Lauren, thank you very much for your lengthy explanation. Thank you for putting your buns on the line to answer my question. I've built a new pond 4 times now and have never had more than a rubber pond liner and a pond pump. I've never even used a filter. I always include a creek bed or veggie filter and aside from some green in the spring, my ponds always stay nice and clean and clear. I do have one monster Koi that has a field day knocking over pots and I found more water lilies in the bottom of my pond than in pots! The sarasa, shebunkin and other fish don't seem to dump th epots but I have seen them in and around them. My favorite was a giant bullfrog that decided to live one of those big rope handled tubs with my lotus in the middle of the pond. I brought that big tub with me and didn't see any tads so I am wondering where he went. Anyway, I very much appreciate the mature way this thread is going and I love to hear other opnions and reasons before I go either way with something. I am still free to make my own decisions and mistakes but at least I can make my own informed opinion. :)