Equilibrium, What do you think of the water garden so far???

Well, the bogman has always been, well, a bog gardener. last year I dug by hand (insane as I am) a double pond with a "stream" between. Now finally I've gotten the liner in place and have installed the filter, skimmer and stone, by week's end it will hopefully be completed.

I've already got donations of plants from several of my customers (I've the best customers anyone could ask for) and anticipate the ribbon cutting ceremony (flipping the pump switch) for the pond Saturday. Next season I'll complete the water garden's landscape with a landscape around the edes of the liner that are visible. I've hauled (special thanks to Lynn, Craig, and Jeff) over 4 tons of rock to complete the job. Note the size of the wheelbarro for scale, and the golden larch is 7 foot tall!

Sorry, not trying to be "full of myself" just wanted to share, and thank heaven it's almost done! I'll post another pic once it is done.

Great job bogman. I think that will be very nice. Will be watching this thread. :)

this is so awesome! and the stairs, just beautiful.

that's is so beautiful. will keep watching.

Started adding water today! This will be a several day event. I can certainly wait to see the water bill....Yikes!

Unfortunately the landscaping around the ponds will have to wait until 2006...no $$ left for this season.

Hey, Bogman. How about some additional details. It looks like there is a skimmer but what kind of filter are you using, how big? How many gallons will the pond hold and will you have fishies? You must be a very nice man to have friends who are willing to do that kind of hauling or else you are VERY generous with the refreshments. Jessamine

Hey Jessamine,

Large skimmer with a double extension so I can set the actual skimmer away from the edge of the pond. At the other end is the biofalls all are made by Easy-pro. I could use the biofalls as my own personal hot tub if I were so inclined (it's that big).

I estimate the upper pond at about 700 gallons and the smaller at about 400 look at the wheelbaro in the first pic to see size (that's one of those 2 wheel 8 cu.ft. jobbies).

I will have plenty of plants...I can finally have my lotus. And yes some fish and snails etc. The fish will have to be cheapies cause I've got loads of fish loving wildlife and herons abound. I have only a few good friends but we all take care of each other and help out whenever's needed and believe it or not, not a single adult beverage was opened.

Here's a pic of the pond basically done, landscaping around the pond next year unfortunately!

Here's one more of the ponds in relation to the deck. The area between the house and deck I call the grotto. It'll have big bold foliage type plants and some sort of focal point in the middle.

By the way the tree between the two ponds is a pseudolarix amabilis (kaempferi) or golden larch. One of my prize plants!

Its awesome!!!!!
I worried about lining one with rocks because it would hold all the debris on the bottom
Curious to see how it all works out

Bogman,

I can just picture being out there at night, under the stars, appreciating the beauty and sound. I will keep watching this dream unfold.

Hi bogman! I am sort of stalking you, starting today. LOL I have sort of a unique wetland situation and someone suggested I look you up. Now I am hot on your trail. ;) Your new pond is beautiful! I will be watching for new photos.

Badseed

I've been stalked before! I'm trying to figure out where Lynchburg is. I'm up in the Cleveland Area...Parma to be exact. I will be lecturing on bog gardening on Feb. 18th in Alliance Visit the web site at: http://www.bcbgarden.org for more info.

I'm waiting for spring...and time to finish the landscaping around the water gardens to post more pics.

And there you are in the internet flesh! I just moved here from Cincinnati. It was about a whopping 40 mile move. Are you familiar with Hillsboro? I'm down in between Hillsboro, Wilmington, Lebanon, Dayton, etc. I believe you are about three hours from me. I have no idea where Alliance is located. I will check out the website. I already ran down more of your threads and filled a page or two with notes. :)

Your decking and ponds look so great! We hand dug our pond and haul our rocks in wheelbarrows, so I definately know how much work you put into your pond. It looks like you have used basically the same biofalls as we have. I see a rock on top of your filter. We put the bags of lava rock to hold the filters down and to help create a biosystem filtration. Are you adding those later, or are you going to use something else?
You tree is beautiful, but I think you may regret planting it so close to the edge of your ponds when the needles drop. I think that is like one we have at work and they can be quite messy. I don't know if the needles would float like leaves do, to make it to the skimmer.
You have really got a great setting for the pond, best of luck with your planting, etc. Wish I could hear your bog garden lecture. That is something I plan to try this year. Thanks for sharing your progress so far, I will look forward to the finishing touches to come.

How be you BogMan!

Oh my gosh! I haven't been here to this forum in a long time. My ponds were shut down months ago. Once I shut down, it is sort of depressing for me.

I see you went with a rock bottom pond. You always were a brave man. Are they mortared in place? Just curious.

Well, as ALWAYS... you have done a beautiful job. You are truly the best of the best. Can you post any of those other photos you sent me in e-mail. These people have got to see what you have done from that perspective.

I will watch this thread so I don't miss out on any updates!

Lauren

Come on now E!

Where's the fun in shutdown? My ponds just keep going. They froze up once when we had a week of single digits back in December, but since then the ponds keep flowing.

The stone bottom helps keep the pond clear because the nitrifying bacteria colonize the rocks and remove nutrients that algae can gow on. No mortar at all, just a huge jigsaw puzzle. Only a little waterfall foam was used in the stream area. unfortunately that's not visible in the photos.

I went out this morning after reading your post and took these pics. we had a couple of inches of fresh powder and the sun came out...so I thought I'd share what the ponds look like in the dead of January.

Here's one more, this is what I see when I walk out the back door.

And so no one gets upset with me for growing bamboo. I spent a hefty amount of $$ on a containment system. Nothing worse than digging a hole 3 1/2 feet deep so you can line it with bamboo proof plastic then fill it in again, OUCH!

If I photographed what I see when I walk out my back door you would be grabbing your sides and rolling on the floor laughing. There is no comparison to what I have out my backdoor to what you have out your backdoor!

This, my friend-

Okay you two, can I jump in the middle? LOL I have read pretty much what bogman said about having rocks in the bottom being a good thing. Why do you not like that idea Equi?

That quote is hysterical! How many times.....!

I don't shut down my pond either. I usually leave a pump running but after 4 years or so, it finally bit the dust. I guess I'll get a new one as soon as they are available locally or bite the bullet and order online. The fish are still happy and the thin sheet of ice on top comes and goes with the temps but never completely covers the pond.

bogman, Your pics gave me pond envy. Mine is shut down for the winter. It does have a rock bottom. We used flat river stone with smaller pebbles in any gaps between the stones, just enough to disguise the liner. The koi love it and you are right about the extra surfaces for nitifying bacteria. Another neat thing is that waterlillies will actually root in the bottom under the rocks and in the creviceses. Found that out by accident.There is a small bog garden on the NE end not visible in the pic. It is not connected to the pond itself. What I want to know is does the container really hold the bamboo? I would love to have some but I spent about three years of spading, troweling, digging, cutting, cursing and finally herbicide on some invasive stuff my neighbor planted. This poor little old lady ( in her 80's) let it get all over her yard before she realized it was a problem. We wound up helping her family remove hers too. That stuff could have escaped an expressway median island. What variety did you plant?

bogman and snapple, both of you have done a fabulous job on your ponds!
:) Donna

I have no problems with rocks on the bottom of ponds provisional upon them being mortared in place. I don't have the time to maintain a rock bottom pond. I think I'll leave this can 'o worms to a veteran in favor of waiting for him to post more eye candy because there's nothing better than the appearance of a rock bottom pond to me!

Try here for a decent price on pumps-
http://www.azponds.com/
Call them on the phone and discuss your options. I find I often change my mind about what I need after a little discussion.

So you like rock bottom but only if they are mortared? Sorry, I just like to hear opinions on things. I have my lowest level of my pond installed with just rubber liner. I still have enough rubber to do a second pond or another level or two. I am trying to decide if I want to do a lily and lotus pond, a seperate plant pond, etc. I have a monster koi that gets happy dumping pots so I am trying to carefully think out my new set up. I thought about doing a seperate, more shallow one and lining it with flat rock or doing more of a creek bed with the same rock as well.

Equilibrium I understand your hesitation about rock bottoms. They can be tricky if overdone. The stones we used are thin, perfectly smooth and fairly flat, leaving only small spaces in between. It was expensive but I wanted a smooth surfaces to avoid the koi beating themselves up. The spaces are covered with large smooth pebbles. I vacuum with a pond vac once a year taking care to get in between the pebbles in the gaps. I avoid where the waterlilly got a root hold. It hasn't been much different in that respect than another smaller pond (380 gal)I have with an epdm rubber liner only. When I do the annual water change (25%) I put the pump at the lowest point and use one that sucks directly from the bottom and move it around the bottom from time to time as it is draining. I have had no noticeable sludge build up. I actually think the koi, in their continual rummaging around between the rocks, put any accumulating debris in suspension and allow it to circulate enough to be filtered out. It is a 2000 gal with seven koi and about 24 goldfish. I would dearly love to "relocate" the goldfish. They reproduce like, well like goldfish and they were a huge mistake. I removed nearly 100 this last spring. I hope to get the rest this year. The koi are approaching the 18" to 20" size. Any way, even with this fish load I have never, ever, had a measurable, ammonia, nitrite or nitrate reading. So far, so good.

Wow that is quite a few fish! How do you overwinter them?
:) Donna

PerennialGirl. Too many fish! They overwinter just fine. The 2000 gal. pond is close to 3 1/2 feet deep at it lowest point. I am trying a 1500 watt floating stock tank heater this year. It works well but is exepnsive to run and you have to take it out of the pond and clean the scale off the heating element periodically. It would be practical to have two, one out of the pond on standby. It went down to 15 last night and there is no ice on the pond. I have a remote thermometer and it has stayed about 44 degrees all winter. But, we have had abnormally warm winter weather with only an occaisional cold snap. Last year I used two much lower wattage deicers and they kept just small holes open. They were very cheap to operate, however one failed in the middle of sub zero temps. We had to go out and melt a hole in the ice to get another one in. No fun! I have never lost a fish over the winter. Spring start up with our annual raccoon visitor is another matter.

I am getting into this discussion a bit late but.... Please don't take this wrong but ...how can I say this without sounding offensive...ANYONE who grows bamboo anywhere near a water garden is in serious need of professional help or maybe just likes to live dangerously. YES it is beautiful...but unless you are willing to put sheet metal veryically 6 feet into the ground and totally souround the "patch(es) it WILL spead and it WILL puncture ANY mil thickness of pond or roofing material like a knife through butter. And once you come to this conclusion it could take years ...yes I said YEARS to get red of it and in fact you may never ever totally get rid of it without destrying everything else planted within 20 feet of your beautiful water garden . Yes you could probably contain it with the proper work but do YOU want to take the chance ...I suggest clumpers ...they won't do much but you'll be safe ... I write this from personal experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy ...and after two years of swet labor I still see an occasion sprig comming up and it's been 7 years!!!!! DON'T do it there are a multitude of beautiful stuff to place around your pond JUST SAY NO TO BAMBOO...David

Hey David, BogMan has one of the most sophisticated containment systems around. He's been growing bamboo for well over a decade and none of his has escaped. To the best of my knowledge, he does not share this plant with anyone. If people must grow this plant (and I really would not encourage this), I'd take 50 BogMans to one of me growing it anyday which is why I don't grow bamboo. I once saw photos of another person who was growing it on the Internet. They used their old concrete swimming pool to contain it. Your concerns are very valid. Bamboo can be a highly invasive plant.

Haye snapple, beautiful pond! I've got one that is considerably smaller than yours that is edged in a similar manner.

Haye v Hey snapple??? Sorry about that. My fingers started typing phonetically.

yes I agree it is possible to contain ...yes just about anything in life is possible with enough work and a concrete pond would be acceptable except as it cracks and deteriates you'd be in big trouble thats why they tell you NEVER plant bamboo by house foundations ... My point was and i see you agree that it is not advisable and for all those except someone with alot more time on their hands than I ...IMHO it is a waist of time to attempt to contain it and much more work than i could EVER imagine spending to grow ANYTHING. But to each his own ...I just know I came within a small hair on a cats behind from having my 1500 gal pond totally desroyed and had to redo my whole waterfall which had penetrated my heavy 20 year guaurenteed rubber roofing in about a dozen places and swetted bullets for weeks hoping that i hadn't missed any close to the pond to cause future problems. And remember if it gets into other trees and plant areas you got to throw the baby out with the bath water and EVERYTHING must go...what a nightmare even away from ponds,,,I only advise planting it on the "back 40"and only if you never intend to use said back 40!!! David

Tee he... the back 40 is the worst place to plant it. That would mean that 40 acres would soon be 80 acres would soon be 160 acres and well you know what I mean. Bamboo is definitely a problem child plant. For what it's worth, I've sweated bullets with you over some of my personal plant mistakes. Not much we can do but learn from them and do what you did which was to very candidly share your personal experiences. Your openness and honesty is very much appreciated and you are most certainly correct in that if it gets into natural areas... the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Speaking of which, one of my kids recently shared with me how that saying came into existence as well as the saying that it is "raining cats and dogs". You probably know already but I didn't know. Kids! They come up with the darndest things these days.

Amen, equilibrium. Talk about personal plant mistakes. I spent half a lifetime taking out lamium in its third year. OMG it took over everything. Unfortunately it spread under the fence to an uncooperative neighbor. I keep getting it back and it is my own fault. My neighbor, bless his heart, doesn't see it as a problem..........yet. I am thinking of trying some bamboo in a #15 pickle crock and then let the winter freeze it out as a precaution. Now I read catalogue descriptions very ,very carefully. The verb "spreads" sends up a big red flag. Bamboo proof plastic?? I saw this stuff push up through a hairline crack in my neighbors concrete garage floor (the nice little old lady gal)! That's when we had to use Ground Clear all around the garage floor footer. There went her iris. Next would have been a flame thrower.

Yup, the word spreads is a red flag when associated with a non native plant. The word that really should send up red flags would be naturalize. That word... naturalize... is virtually always used in the context of non native plants. Actually, I can't think of a situation in which native/indigenous plants have ever "naturalized" because they are native and belong in an ecosystem. This confusion, which I believe is by design, is at the root of why I took some of my worst knocks. I recall the packets of Dame's Rocket. Those seed packs were so beautiful. The art work on the cover of the seed pack begged me to buy it and "naturalize" my property... I mean after all, the seed pack stated that Dame's Rocket naturalized well so it all seem very wholesome to me. Not so, Dame's Rocket (Hesperis matronalis) is an exotic invasive that can quickly displace actual native wildflowers that critters depend upon for survival. I bought 20 packs of Hesperis matronalis to better my odds of "naturalizing" them. Oh, they naturalized all rightie and I am still removing a few here and there to this day. I am not the only one who has fallen victim to the marketing scam of lulling us into a false sense of security by touting that the seed or plant being sold "naturalizes" well. Live and learn. Other personal plant mistakes would be wildflower and woodland mixes that I assumed were all "safe" plants only to learn that Queen Anne's Lace, Shasta Daisy, Bachelor's Buttons, Snow On The Mountain, Love In a Mist, Ox-Eye Daisy, or Forget Me Nots were included in the "wildflower" mix. Ugh. My greatest mistakes were Lily of the Valley, Russian Olive, White Mulberry, Burning Bushes, Bradford Pear, and English Ivy. I'll spare you on those but they are proving to be beyond invasive. I wish I had a dollar for every plant mistake I've made by falling for the advertising out there and assuming. I pay to this day. I don't trust catalog descriptions these days because they are designed to get us to buy. Half of them only give you some common name which makes looking up a plant incredibly difficult. Now I make sure I always get the Latin name and I go to good old reliable Google and type that Latin name in and add the word invasive to the search. I read what I can find on line and then I decide whether I want to buy or not. This has been working for me and considerably fewer mistakes these days.

Regarding bamboo, most stock tanks are plastic. Here's a link to Rubbermaid's line of 300 gallon stock tanks. Sink one of those in the ground and no worries with most species of bamboo. One problem, we buy these stock tanks for horses and they are a couple hundred dollars a piece. They certainly are sturdy though and I doubt seriously if one of those is going to break down in the ground as concrete would.

http://www.brusselsagri.com/farm_supplies/rubbermaid.htm

Equilibrium: Oh boy, now you've done it! Those stock tanks give me more than an idea for bamboo. Just when I thought I couldn't possibly stick another thing in the yard I see these things and now I am looking out the window trying to assess the possibilities. The budget will probably be the ultimate determining factor. Sounds like you have plenty of room to make a statement in naturalizing. What mix did you finally arrive at? You mentioned Lilly of the Valley. I have that as a "gift" from a neighbor! I keep cultivating and it is diminishing every year. Hopefully it will eventually dissapear. What would we do without Google? It is certainly a lot faster than repeated trips to the library or maintaining an exstensive reference library. I still am a sucker for garden books though. Anything by Dirr for sure. You sound quite educated in the plant world so this may not be anything you would want or need to read as you probably already know it, but I just read a great book on botany. "Botany for Gardeners" Revised Edition by Brian Capon, Timber Press. I was a finance major in college so the last class I had on anything with plants was many moons ago in high school for goodnes sake. This was a really good and fascinating read.

I have never used a "mix" since those first few years. The mixes they sell today are no different than the mixes they sold over 10-15 years ago. Mixes are nothing more than packages of problems. There are a handful of select nurseries that offer quality mixes for very specific ecosystems but they are far and few between. It is best to know your land and go from there.

I do not use plants that naturalize. Learned my lesson well on that. In the areas of my property that are natural, I use native plants exclusively. Up in tight around my home as well as in my moon garden, my fernery, and my small orchard, I use many non native plants that are well behaved that don't "naturalize" or become invasive or noxious. I also grow many exotic plants inside my home that are not native.

If you are going to go for a 175 or 300 gallon stock tank will you please nix the bamboo entirely and consider joining in over at the Carnivorous Plant Forum here and I think you just might check the plant files and take a look at Sarracenia. Create a bog woman! A bog with Tall Pitcher plants will be so you! Once you go insectivorous... you never go back. Muahahahahaha! Seriously, look at the tall pitcher plants which would be hardy in your zone because they are temperate contrary to popular belief. Probably one of the most exquisitely elegant of all plants.

The two books I live by would be Plants of the Chicago Region by Swink and Wilhelm, both the 1974 and 1979 editions and I will get the newest edition ('06 or '07?) which will include even more vascular flora as well as local distribution and ecology. Michael Dirr's books are phenomenal. The book by Capon should be a staple in every home library. I actually have a decent library at home of reference materials. Would you please do me a favor and pick up two books to read? The first is Noah's Garden by Sara Stein. The second book I would love for you to read would be A Sand County Almanac by Leopold.

Regarding this, "You sound quite educated in the plant world so..." fooled ya! I learn something new every day. I have arrived at the point in my life where I am just beginning to comprehend how much I don't know. Humbling to say the least.

the tank idea will work as long as you are careful NOT to let it grow over the sides IE sink it 2/3 in the ground 1/3 above otherwise it would NOT be "wise" IMHO... What really peeves me are the catalogues that DON'T warn folks about such things as invasiveness or speadability .
I have posted in rain tree garden section ( and written them about this ) both on bamboo and mulberry trees ...I have gotten 10 emails for an explanation on mulberries... SATIN'S gift to mankind as far as I'm concerned ...I know this is not the place but here's the form letter I've been sending to those contacting me about this "satanic" tree...hope this doesn't bore you but anytime I get the chance to post it makes me VERY happy ;>)

Hey????finally was able to make a "form letter on this since many have contacted me ....see the following:

Illinois Mulberry
Basically I hate 'em.... I don't know where you live ( YES wi. remember it's a form letter ;>) but I don't think it will matter here's da facts
#1 they grow 8-10 feet pr year here in Illinois and are really twiggy and branchy
#2 they spread by birds from their berries EVERY where... your neighbors will HATE you
#3 they are really hard to control ...cut off a branch or trim one and it grows 5 - 6 new ones grow from the cut area!!
#4 cut off at base and 6-10 new trunks will grow!!
#5 their root systems are about 6 ft deep after one year
#6 to get rid of you must dig out the root COMPLETLY ( remember 6 feet after 1 year) or use 24D Tordone which will kill anything else that the mulberry root system touches so your screwed and it's nasty stuff and you must use it in fall or spring to be really effective and sometimes not even then NOTHING else I have tried works!!
#7 It is the LAST tree to leaf out in the spring and the FIRST to loose it's leaves in the summer
#8 It has absolutely NO fall color... leaves just turn brown and drop off
#9 I repeat birds will spread them everywhere where there is brush, trees or non grass areas for miles
#10 they are scrubby trees and the berries variable.. some trees have large ones some small and the berries taste is also variable ...and you won't know til it's too late.
#11 there are both male and female trees and if you can be guaranteed a male and can live with an non-controllable, fast growing, non colorful, useless tree then I might say they'd be ok
Hope this helps ...I strongly suggest another tree.... there are most likely hundreds of more suitable ones and I am always surprised that anyone has them for sale without warning...I think that is unethical and have written several large nurseries about it with of course no reply ...I guess it's all about the money...David

Hey David, I don't know who you are from Adam but let me tell you that you have endeared yourself to my heart.

One thing though, there are a few native Mulberries that do not out compete native flora and truly do benefit wildlife so best to use the Latin name of your Chinese beast when discussing it so people don't go out and rip out their Morus rubra. Your White Mulberry is Morus alba.

One other little thing...

Morus ' Nuclear Blast' and 'Everbearing'. Special. Great and I'd assume appropriate names ;>)...what sets the mulberry apart from most other plants and trees spead by seeds like honysuckle etc is their innate survival "instinct"...if you could just cut em down or mow em or pull em up it would be no big deal . I don't know if the other varieties are like that but if they are reguardless of their "worthness" for the wildlife ...especially birds...I'd still be inclined to intensly dislike 'em. Many folks make mistakes planting things in the wrong areas or too close to whatever never thinking of the future ...but they ususally have recouse...a basic easy solution to cut it down or move it or just trim it.... with this tree you are left with little or NO options and in fact what was once one (your) single problem has blossemed into many for you and your neighbors for miles around!!! At least with bamboo the problem is mostly localized and with some work fixable...david

David, sometimes there are few alternatives to using chemicals. Get yourself some BrushBGone. Regular strength should be fine. Pick up a throw away paint brush. A 1" should be fine. Cut your White Mulberries down to stumps that are about 12" above ground. Immediately paint the stump with the BrushBGone. Now take a large zip lock baggie and place it over the stump so chipmunks and other critters don't get in it. Painting the stump gives you control of where the chemical goes and enables you to use the least amount possible to kill your nasty. No fuss and no muss. Now wait until the following season. If the plant does not sucker back up, go ahead and cut it down to level with the ground and stump it out. Leaving that intial 12" gives you the chance to have a second go at the plant because you can cut it down to 6" and re-paint the stump if it comes back full force. If it does come back, you can try another chemical. Now, do not use the chemical paint treatment in spring or summer because the sap is running and will just push the chemical out of the stump. This needs to be done in fall. Applying chemicals at the right time is always best.

Incidentally, Japanese Honeysuckle is allelopathic. Look that one up. Great way to kill off surrounding vegetation. A plant that sends out chemicals into the surrounding soil that kills off other species to insure its survival. Japanese honeysuckle is not the only allelopathic alien plant out there and people wonder why these plants do "so well".