Container Soils and Water Movement in Containers (long post)

Help. I tried to buy Pine Bark Fines or any fines at all and couldn't find any bark of the size I understand to be useful. Little nuggets and bigger was all I could locate in either the biggest gardening center near us or Lowes. The best I could find was a product called "Bumper Crop"..the outside of the bag says that the ingredients include bark fines, peet, composted manure and composted oyster shells. The marketing info says: A blend of composted fir bark and forest humus fortified with 15% chicken manure, worm castings, bat guano and kelp meal. pH balanced with dolomite and oyster shell lime. An all purpose pre-fertilized planting and garden soil amendment. Excels as a nutrient rich top dressing and mulch.

This seems like it would be great but doesn't have perlite...is it still advantageous to add this? Also, it is pricy so I would still prefer to find the bark fines. Anyone out there in NYC that has had luck finding the fines? Cheryl

You can add the perlite yourself. I never did find the fines.

Yes... I realize that but wasn't sure it would still be necessary???

And Al...one more thing. What is "green sand". Gardeners Supply sells it and it says "it is a naturally occurring iron-potassium silicate that contains as many as 22 trace minerals to enhance soil fertility and loosen clay or compacted soil. It will absorb and hold large amounts of moisture in the soil and help proling flower bloom."

How does it loosen compacted soil AND hold large amounts of moisture in the soil? They say it is for veges, flowers and lawns. Cheryl

LOL. I just re-read my earlier email and "finding fines" repeated in several different combinations begins to sound like an Abbot and Costello routine. Cheryl

Who's on first?

Good grief, it sounded good enough for dinner tomorrow night. LOL

Jeanette

Jeanette - it just might be the ideal dinner for earthworms. I'll pass.

tapla - what is the difference between controlled release fertilizer and continuous release fertilizer. I'm finding several brands of continuous release but haven't seen controlled release. Would you give me brand name to look for that would be good. I've only searched in Lowes so far but I have plenty of nurseries in my area to check out. And would you also give me the brand name of a micro-nutrient powder that would be good. Thank you so much. We're still waiting on the weather in the northeast to warm up so we can get outside in the garden so I thought I would start getting my supplies ready for the container mix that you suggested. I found the diatomaceous earth on an earlier shopping trip - I'm the one with the ant problem. Thanks again for all of your help and advice.

I hope I don't step on any toes if I chime in here...

Micromax and STEM (Soluble Trace Element Mix) are the micronutrient sources I see used most often.

STEM is soluble in water and can be used as a foliar spray.

Micromax is a powder, released over a period of time as long as 18 months. Finding Micromax has been a challenge for me. I would have expected that somewhere, online, one could obtain a small, 3-5# bag or bottle, but so far as I can tell, such a product is not made. I have only been able to find big 50# bags. Eventually I did find a nursery about 50 miles from here that will sell me a cup at a time.

Cheryl - because of the angular shape of the sand particles, when incorporated into soils it "wedges" between other soil particles & holds them apart or "loosens" them. It's also said to hold about 10 times more water than regular sand, though I'm not sure why. It has to be that the particle's structure has lots of surface area or that they have internal porosity structure that regular sand does not. In either case, this aspect is of no value in container soils as they should already have good porosity and a loose nature. Fine particulates, from a physical perspective, also tend to reverse our efforts th maintain a well-aerated mix.

Chemically speaking, your comments above pretty much cover the benefits of greensand. I'd temper those comments by adding that greensand is extremely slow in giving up it's trace elements. Though a small amount would probably do no harm in containers, I believe there are better sources of micro-nutrients available that do not impact drainage/aeration and that readily release (or slowly if you choose the appropriate product) nutrients for immediate uptake.

Grammy - "controlled" and "continuous" are used interchangeably, with "continuous release" used most often to point out that nutrients are ever available when using a "controlled release" product.

I most often use either Micromax insoluble micro-nutrient granules for incorporation into soils as I make them. I use STEM, a soluble, fine granular with my fertilizer program as both a remedial and maintenance supplement on plants that have no Micromax in the soil or on plants growing in soils in which the Micromax has been absorbed or washed from the container.

If you have trouble finding these products & you feel you want to use them, contact me & I'll put you onto a source.

Al

Hi, Tapla, are you still giving speeches? I would love to attend one of
your lectures. Mind you that I am a beginner with gardening. Please
advise where your next lecture will be. I live in Columbus Oh and am
often in Bluefield Wv.

Thanks confussedlady

Oh golly, Confused... - I mainly just loan myself out to local clubs when they ask. I don't actively seek out speaking engagements, nor do I charge for a talk. There's probably more information presented in this thread & some similar threads now running on another forum site than I could ever compress into a presentation that would last an hour or two - and you still have the same opportunity to ask questions we can all learn from. Oh - and plus, there are other minds at work here besides mine, so you get the benefit of conversation as we kick things around. Thank you though. You've made me smile (broadly). ;o)

Al

Re: Your photo:

As Jessica Simpson says, "I totally don't know what that is, but I WANT it!"

Al- I'm with Gymgirl- what is that? Its beautiful!!
Samantha

I'm going to guess Sedum 'Purple Emperor' or similar cvs.

It's so dramatic!

Well, let's try to stay focused on container soils, though I love all the attention that Rose is getting. :o) It's only fair to the folks who come here for soil & growing information - yes?

I really don't know exactly what she is (not a sedum though - Echeveria, I'm sure). I got her at a big box store for a buck, many, many years ago - maybe 12-15. When she gets too tall, I lop her off & restart the rosette as a cutting. She produced only a single shoot one time, but it withered & died on the stem before I could propagate it. Whatever she is, she's the most feminine plant I have ever seen, and NEVER looks the same from one week to the next.

If you want to know her story, you can look here:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/houseplt/msg0516503417204.html

I really didn't think she would pique much interest, or I'd probably have started a different thread or not even posted the pic. I know you guys understand - you're always soo great. ;o) Thanks again.

Al

I've followed this thread with great interest; my brain cannot process all the information. But now it's time to start filling my 15-20 outdoor containers. I empty the soil into my compost pile each fall and start fresh the next spring (I do this b/c I've always assumed that the nutrients have been absorbed, and I don't want the roots of the past season's annuals to be in the soil).

I would like to follow your soil recipe, Al, but I am ashamed to admit that have followed this entire thread w/o knowing what "CRF" is!!! (It is mentioned in the original recipe). Also, when shopping for "pine bark fines", is this the same as commercially bagged mulch?

Controlled release fertilizer

The bark fines might be found packaged as any number of things. Some are processing larger bark chunks through a chipper to get a suitable size. See the picture above that shows three bark products + perlite. Ideally, what you want is at 12 o'clock, but I use the other bark products for other soils too.

"Soil Conditioner" "Southern Yellow Pine Bark" "Pine Bark Mulch - Decorative Ground Cover" are just a few of the names I've found on packages containing suitable material. I've used pine, fir, and hemlock bark - all with good results.

Partially composted is best. Stay away from products that have lots of sapwood (non-bark woody material) in them. These companies package and distribute an excellent product. You could call to see who/if anyone distributes for them near you.

Mid America Mulch Inc.
Bradenton, Florida #(941) 746-1999

Ameriscape Inc
Harbor Springs, Michigan #(231) 347-0077

Partially compost your own for next year in a trash container. Moistened small bark chips & some high N fertilizer will yield a great product, or do it on a pile if you need lots of bark.

I've never had trouble locating it. I've bought it from Meijer, wholesale by the pallet from nursery/greenhouse suppliers, and from an assortment of nurseries. I wish you luck, I'm sorry it sometimes proves difficult to find.

C'mon ovr - we'll mix it onna driveway & u can take it home with u!!! ;o)

Al

Thanks, Al! It's a long drive from MI to MA w/ a truck load of soil!!!

I am growing dahlias in pots this year. To them (I've read) it's the kiss of death to use a high nitogen fertilizer (makes weak, hard to store tubers). Would you make any adjustments to your recipe for dahlias?

Not to the mix itself. I think though, that I'd do a couple of things that most wouldn't do.

First, I'd leave the CRF out of the mix. If I could find a 5-10-10 soluble fertilizer, I'd use that. Instead, I use a 20-20-20 and a 0-10-10 mixed together at half strength. Sometimes I use a 5-1-1 fish emulsion with the 0-10-10 - it just depends on what's handy. I know this works better than straight 20-20-20 or a bloom formula like 10-52-10 or 15-30-15.

Also, I'd fill the container about 1/3 full of soil and add the tuber, barely covering it. Then, I add soil as the plant grows. until the soil is about 1/2 inch from the rim. It makes a strong-stemmed, well-anchored plant.

I can't comment on the effect of high N fertilizers on the tuber condition. I don't see why it would produce a weak tuber, as plants only use what they need (toxicity issues aside), regardless of the amounts of nutrients in soil.

Al

Thanks, Al. I can use this information as well as Jax. You always make sense!

Hi pirl!!!

Al, thank you. From what I know of human nutrional needs (a few college courses), our bodies take what we need from water-soluble vitamins (again, toxic levels aside), yet we store excess fat-soluble vitamins in our body fat, to be used later. If we continue to ingest fat-soluble vitamins, the amounts in our bodies can quickly become toxic. I wonder: are all nutrients used by plants water-soluble? Is there a toxic build-up equivalent? Since tubers are next year's "refrigerator" (term from Steve N.) for the plants' nutrituonal needs, does excess nitrogen cause the tuber to break down in storage? I wonder if nitrogen itself doesn't "keep"?

These are just hypothetical questions; no reply needed.

Al,

Got this on my watch list. Thanks for all your information!!! Love to read all the info and comments and I refer to it often.

Do you have any info on potting up a tropical Hibiscus plant? I got it Monday at Lowe's and it's in an approx. 6 to10 " pot (not sure right now). I've never grown and/or potted one up before. I only use organic fert., can you give me a good one to use and for the potting mix, would it be any different than 'your basic mixture'?

Thanks!

Marilyn

Hi Marilyn, you may want to check out the Hibiscus forum, lots of great experts over there who can give you all the help you need as far as fertilizer, etc.

Is that a vote of "no confidence"? ;o)

Well Marilyn, I have a half dozen hardy hibs in the ground & use at least a half dozen tropicals each year in containers, so I have some experience in growing them and coaxing lots of blooms out of them. The soil mix above is very good for hibs, but there is a better mix if you want to talk about it. Let me know.

Hibiscus appreciate a light and coarse soil, similar to that above, mainly for the drainage & aeration they provide, not particle size. Soils that are mainly fine peat tend to compact and hold too much water, resulting in badly aerated roots and rot issues, so remember aeration is particularly important with hibs.

Assuming you'll use a fast draining soil: for best flowering, plan on fertilizing EVERY week with a full recommended dosage while the plant is actively growing. They're pigs & love fertilizer. You'll have to translate these numbers into whatever you can find in organic fertilizers, but I can tell you you'll be hard pressed to keep up with their nutrient needs with organic nutrient supplements. Water soluble formulas can be used with every watering at lower doses if you want, but I find that a pain & weekly is just fine. Most use a "bloom-inducing" blend like 10-52-10 or 15-30-15 on hibs, thinking the extra P will induce blooms, but they don't especially like P. Look for something with a low P (middle number) content. If you could find a soluble 20-5-20, it would be great. Blends high in P like listed above, or even 20-20-20 will produce lots of fine leaves & far fewer blooms. For best vitality, plan on adding some Epsom salts & chelated iron or your organic source of Mg and Fe into your fertilizer program, too.

Potting up is best about now where you live. I treat them like trees & bare-root/root prune every year, but you can score the root mass several times vertically with a razor knife. Pull a few handfuls of roots off the bottom & sides (don't worry - this will not kill or harm this vigorous plant) and pot in the next larger pot. If you're using a very fast soil, you can use a very large pot if you prefer. The plant will grow buck-wild. ;o)

I hope that helps, Marilyn.

I'll vouch for that.
I use the instructions here in the thread for the soiless mix. My 1.5 inch Hibiscus cuttings I brought back from Hawaii last year are exceeding 6 feet tall. The other, not so tall has been blooming non stop since January- it does need to upgrade to a bigger pot already.!
Rj

Al,

Al - I think we all might want to know how you alter the mix for roses, clematis, dahlias and a host of other plants, as well as hibiscus.

Indeed we would! This is totally fascinating.

It is the first thread I go to when I see a new post has been made.

Al, I have absolute confidence in your knowledge, but I wasn't sure if you grew hibiscus and their fertilization needs are a bit different than other plants. But it turns out you do know everything!

Marilyn - I grow almost everything I expect to go more than a year in the same soil, or that I intend to root-prune annually or every other year, in a coarse and spare mixture that is 2/3 inorganic and 1/3 pine bark. It retains water reasonably well, and you can adjust that by varying the ingredients. I also grow all my houseplants and succulents in some minor variation of this mix. It will certainly retain its structure for longer than an appropriate interval between repotting (different than potting-up). It consists of:

1 part Turface (I screen mine, but you'll find it unnecessary)
1 part grower grit (crushed granite sold at feed stores as turkey grit)
1 part pine bark
Garden lime or gypsum (whichever is appropriate)
CRF (leave it out for hibs)
elemental sulfur (if appropriate)
micro-nutrients

I didn't mention this soil because most are unwilling to look for the ingredients, but they all have multiple uses for building container soils and are wonderful amendments to have on hand, once you understand how they affect your soils.

Here is a photo of what I grow hibs in:

Pirl - I usually use the mix described in the original post for veggies, pretty flowers (garden display container plantings) ;o), or anything else I consider short term plantings. Don't misunderstand - the bark-based soil mix will outlast a peaty mix by far, but I still usually turn the soil into the garden or compost each year & make fresh, - that's just how I am. ;o)

I use a variation of the mix I just described to Marilyn immediately above for all things woody at the first repot. For roses, I would use the mix I described to Marilyn, but add a little more bark & some peat to it; clematis would get the same soil as the roses and I would double pot them, trying to be sure the outer pot was white or light in color (cooler roots); dahlias would go in the original mix (first post).

It doesn't HAVE to be this complicated at all. Almost everything will grow better in the original mix than in a bagged soil. I didn't mention this other mix because the average grower won't want to be bothered with building it, but you guys are asking questions, and I'm just trying to provide the answers w/o regard to what may (or may not) be involved in finding suitable ingredients. I find them extremely easy to come by, but others may not.

I can say this though: If you take the time to find a source for and learn the function of the individual ingredients in a soil, and how to combine them to suit an individual planting, you'll be very impressed with the results - particularly how much easier everything is to care for. The down side is that you'll need to water and fertilize more frequently in any soil I suggest when compared to a bagged soil, but from a physiological perspective, that's a very good thing.

Rose - the echeveria in the 2nd photo up, is growing in 3 parts Turface, 1 part coarse silica sand, 1 part crushed granite, and 1 part pine bark. That's a mix with only 17% organic component, and she's at least 15 years old & marvelously vital. I have other plants growing in 100% Turface - that's NO organic component, and they do spectacularly with only a little attention to making sure I supply the appropriate nutrients in my fertilizer program.

Al

What is Turface?

Al,

Thanks for the info! What do you use to fert. the hibs and how much and how often?

Marilyn

Thanks, Al. We had one area with the turkey grit and bricks. When we moved the BBQ and the bricks I didn't know better and just turned all the grit into the soil: everything grows beautifully there.

I use Miracle Gro 12-4-8 liquid fertilizer at 1 capful per quart once per week (in a fast soil that drains freely). Cut the dose by half if you use a bagged potting soil. I also supplement with a little Epsom salts every so often (probably every other week, I'd guess) when I think of it.

Turface is a calcined (high fired) clay that is ceramic-like. It's very air and water porous & holds water & nutrients very well (excellent CEC). One pound of Turface has 13-1/2 acres of surface area. It's an excellent soil amendment, used extensively on athletic fields & golf courses because of the properties listed. Additionally, it adds porosity to soils, promotes drainage, and is extremely stable. See Turface at lower left & crushed granite at lower right.

The dark soil at the top is a soilless blend I have in all my raised beds.

Al

This message was edited Apr 30, 2007 6:41 AM