The worst clay soil on earth

Here is a picture that I took after I dug the pond. The ledge by the grass is only about 5" deep. I still need to level that off. You can see how the dirt just gets lighter and lighter as it goes down. The loose dirt laying on both sides is exactly how it came out. When I would dump the scoop, it would nearly slide out like sand. Had I dug the hole at my other house, the red clay soil would have fallen out in a huge chunk. This gray clay or silt is more like sand. You can shape it into a ball fairly easy then just lightly squeeze and it goes back to a very loose soil again. I guess when I run up today, I will do a perk test and see how it holds water. I have to figure out what to add and get moving!

Mom and I were digging today and she made the remark that we should start making pottery with what we encountered. But I'll make this suggestion: get some cats. The best soil I have is that which my cats use as a litter box. And it was pure clay about three years ago. Now it's the most wonderful stuff and whatever I grow there just does fantastically.

Maybe we should consider getting some pigs! LOL I think I read it on the farm forum, if you have pigs in an area, they will root all around in the soil and make for some great dirt. Maybe we can set up temporary pens and just keep moving them when the dirt is ready. :)

I have just been reading that expanded shale does a wonderful job on clay soil. I have what looks like riverbottom muck that was put in my veggie garden before. For 4 years I have been putting ,many many organics in to it, but hasn't helped much. Do any of you know of a source for expanded shale? Have spent hours reading and looking for it on the web. Have also used greensand, but maybe not enough.

>The best soil I have is that which my cats use as a litter box.

Best for what? Sounds like an incubator for pathogens, to me. Ok for ornamentals I guess but I wouldn't want to plant vegetables in it..

Badseed: Turning those pigs loose in the pond excavation is the best way of compacting that soil into a watertight bathtub.

Wayne

I am ashamed to say I have not had much time to play with my soil. I have been too busy running back and forth and trying to get settled before old man winter attacks.

I dug some holes to plant ornamental grasses and threw some shredded sphagnum into the holes and mixed it with the clay. The grasses seem to be doing fine. I did notice that any type of depression in the clay soil, holds water for a period, whether or not compacted.

The soil that I did press into a ball held it's shaped but fell apart with pressure. It was pretty dry. I really will try to get a soil test and examine my soil as soon as I come up for air.

Hello from the clay,caliche,rock, high ph desert SW Ariz.
I too started with raised beds (1500 sf to date) 8x8x16 block
my first year some beds were 1 block high others 2. I have used
every mix i can think of and overall adding 30% organic matter
will get you going and ok results. Amend again next lift or next planting..Those with a LOT of amending might try the big box stores as I have gotten bag upon bag (broken) for 1/2 price or
free on a regular basis.. I Just mix them all in one big bin and use as needed. The results have been great.

when you make raised beds is it recommended that you put something on the bottom
cause if I don't roots will take over and invade. Or is this a bad idea?

I can't imagine what you would put on the bottom of a raised bed to keep any persistant roots out other than concrete or sheet metal. The common trick for the so-called "lasagna" scheme calls for layers of newspaper but they rot in a relative heartbeat. If enough mulch is added on top of your soil, the paper serves little purpose in my mind except to add some additional organic matter to the soil. They certainly don't last long enough to maintain a barrier to smother bindweed.

I made about 1600 sf of raised beds this year, about a quarter of them so far double-dug in the biointensive method. Of course, nothing is put "on the bottom." After a full growing season, I was only mildly troubled by some rosa rugosa and a rambler rose growing wild near the garden. Yank & they're gone.

I can't imaginge the cost of buying all the organic matter I need at a box store. Around here, all the material necessary for compost, fertilizer and mulch is free for the hauling, raking or mowing.

Wayne

Hello again,

I was all ready to try shredding the 9000 zillion oak leaves in our yard with a tiller and into my raised bed and then the guy who cuts our grass said that was a bad thing to do unless you have roses.

Is there something different about oak leaves? I have a strong suspicion that he is wrong but I thought I'd check.

Thanks,

Maureen

I, too, suspect he's wrong. Oak leaves have been nuthin but good for my garden ('specially carrots & potatoes). I think he's referring to the acidity of the oak leaves. They do contain tannic acid, but I've never heard of anyone having a problem with that, and I love it myself, since my clay is pretty alkaline. They do not contain juglone, the substance that black walnuts secret which kills or stunts many plants ('specially the nightshade family). Most veggies tend to like a slightly acidic soil anyway.

Oak leaves WILL lighten up your soil nicely, so make sure you water enough, come spring.

Hi Everyone,
I just had to jump in here because I haven't heard anyone mention GREEN CLAY soil (I'm talking bright green). This is definitely one type of clay that you cannot add sand to, it immediately turns to concrete no matter what else is added to ammend. If you put a bucket of water in a hole it will be a week or more before it drains.
If raised gardens were made the soil beneath would have to be amended deeply and then the clay would take over soon enough anyway.
For each plant we just dig a hole as deep and wide as possible adding gypsum and clay conditioner to the bottom and sides of each hole then fill with composted cow manure and organic humus etc. Lasagna Method (with layers of wet cardboard etc.) is done around each hole and the plant gets put in very high. I noticed this last year that the clay took over within 3-4 months so its a constant amending process. Only the most hardy make it in this soil. :-(

Judy38,
You asked about expanded shale. I only read this thread today. Here is one link: http://www.designerdirt.com/

I hope that worked, I have not posted a linked before. I recently made a new bed - perenials, shrubs, some succulents, and besides other ammendments, II have clay as well, and added zeolite, which I believe can be a substitute for expanded shale, though I am not positive. It is found in many stores under the name cat litter! Not all cat litter is zeolite. I found it in the generic grocery store brand- the cheap stuff. Google zeolite and see that it is worth considering.

David

MIM01 I am not sure where you live in St louis area but MAYBE oak leaves could be bad. I think it depends on the oak leaves your using and how acid they are. If there is to much acid you can add lime to the bed and it will even it out. I lived in St louis and St Charles county for years. I noted your post about Worst Clay soil in the world. I thought this guy must live in a new subdivision in St Charles. I owned a new home near Weldon Springs and you could not even dig in the stuff. Now I live on Lake of the Ozarks and still got trouble digging with all the rocks but many things like hosta and evergreens grow real well out here.

From Missouri Conservationist Online:

Myth or Reality?

"You can't use oak leaves on your garden because they're too acid."

False. As oak leaves rot they lose their slight acidity, and the oak leaf mold ends up alkaline.

http://www.conservation.state.mo.us/conmag/1995/10/07.html

Wayne

What a fun thread.

And what a pity about Oak leaves not being acidic. I spent some time this year hunting out the rare oak trees in my city, and arranging to collect the leaves to put on my ferns. (We have 7.5-8.0 pH) At least they are a nice shape for an airy and strong mulch.

My belief for amending any soil is tons of organic matter. (And unlike Aubrey above, I mean it literally.)

(Remeber Wayne, that not everyone can get to the treasures of free material, as many elderly gentlemen have told me when I ask them about their choice for soil amendments: They often say that bags are just easier to store and handle)

I figure that a person can play all he wants with the inorganic structure of the soil, but why not solve the structure issues at the same time as adding organic content? I subscribe to a 50% initial organic amendment, and this does drastically turn my hard Clay into something that I can dig with my fingers.

For places similar to this desert hot spot, I must admit that all of this organic content makes the clay drain well- too well. The sun here can completely dessicate six inches of wet soil within one summer day. Another use for leaves: summer water-saving mulch.

I would like to add the term 'Subsoil' to this discussion: The soil below the topsoil, of very poor horticultural use. Some sources say to never bother this soil (making sure to never bring it to the surface,) and leave it where it is. (Some whackos like myself say it should be amended, too. My chiropractor knows about this.)

I think that one should also add to this general clay amendment discussion the importance of avoiding interface between unamended and amended areas; below and to the sides. (The term "Bathtub" has been tossed.) I like to fork the sides and bottoms of planting holes that have shovel-flat edges.

And two questions for experts: (Spectrum or Aubrey, eh?): What inorganic additive is equatable to the effect of organic content, and what is the texture like of High-organic soils in the long run, after the organic particals are well broken down?

Kenton

ADGARDENER

That might be true but he siad a jillion of them. I was thinking along the line of upcoming season. The key thing is "as they rot". They take a long time to rot. Most garden books say that Oak are acid and I know Oaks have a effect on the grass near them. As far as the Missouri Conservationist is concerned. I do not know what to say about them. They are nothing like the great organization they used to be.

hey there folks;
Im a newer member of DG and I love reading your informative comments.I live and garden in zone 9a and struggle with clay.
I read about a product called Zeolite?? It's supposed to be a soil conditioner. It can be used for other things as I understand it, but dos anyone know about it, how to use it, ect.
Thanks !

Hey Superk,

Here are some links with some info. In my latest garden bed I mixed in some zeolite from HEB- kitty litter. I made this bed in the fall. I have clay- Blackland prarie half of Austin. I mixed in some other ammendments as well. The Dirt Doctor is a good site, and a good TX site. Hope this helps.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=763

http://www.garden-ville.com/products/additives/efficientz.htm

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5934&highlight=zeolite

David

Here in MS we have no topsoil on top of our clay, we just have heavy red clay - period in places. I have a trick here that works well, works quickly and isnt all that hard if you have a tiller. The real problem with clay as far as gardening is that you can till it up when dry and it becomes nice and workable, but after it sits for a bit it become hard as concrete again and chokes out the plants. I solve this by tilling it to break it up. Then I dump bags of cheap wood mulch on it and grass clippings. I then till all of this together. As this material rots into the soil it adds a lot of "good" things for plants, I wont get technical here. THe great thing though is the mulch keeps the clay from packing again, so it stays "loose". I would be willing to put our tough red clay against anyones, I truly feel that since this works here, it should work for all of you. Good luck

Our local nursery recommended cottonseed meal to amend clay soil (living in Clay Center, KS, Clay County KS should lend a clue!) We have had great results with the flower/shrub beds that we amended with this. We also use large amounts of mulch, adding to it every spring. We purchased 75 bags of cypress mulch this spring. Vegetable garden and yard were also amended with a sandy topsoil prior to planting, and get lots of compost. Clay soil seems to be a mixed blessing, if you can add enough amendments to lighten it up, it does a remarkable job of growing and nuturing great shrubs and flowers. Having lived where we had almost nothing but a sand pile (Colorado Springs) and not being able to keep it moist enough, I probably prefer the heavier clay soil.

amen from clay city Montana. Lots of compost and mulch.
This is my clay bed with addition of pine needles,peat, pine cones shredded, compost, and bark all mixed in. Just finished yesterday.

I have clay soil. I like it better than sandy soil. Clay soil has a lot of nutrients in it, they are just tied up in a form that is not available to plants. Also, when clay has been neglected, either due to synthetic fertilizers or from exposure to the elements (no mulch no ground cover, just bare soil), then it looses it's crumb structure and plants cannot get the oxygen they need.

Tilling over and over again disrupts the mychorrizal fungi that help the roots of plants. Mychorrizal fungus is helpful to roots and actually becomes a part of them, expanding out many times the mass of root structure. They break down nutrients in the soil into a form that plants are able to absorb.

Dr. Elaine Ingham, soil biologist with Oregon State University, has done some fantastic research on this.

A good way to make a mucky mess is to bury anything green in clay soil. With no oxygen, it can not break down. I know this first hand after having a sewer line put in.

Digging compost into the first few inches of soil works best, but after that mulching is best. I, too, have clay soil. I use raised beds for things like carrots which would be deformed by planting them in clay or gravely soil. I put a lot of other plants in there is well, but In non raised beds, I simply dig in compost, or well rotted manure if I run out of compost, and each year that I do it, my veggies grow larger and healthier. I have a lot of gravel in my soil as well -- thanks to previous owners, not nature. I do extract gravel with a sieve as much as possible, but extracting it all is hopeless for any given year. Nevertheless, the annual addition of lots of compost and manure improves my plants each year. Double digging isn't necessary. What works is annually digging the compost a little deeper. The good soil gets deeper and deeper as the years go by.
The plant roots go farther down each year and loosen a few more inches of the soil each year. It is a slow process. Each year the plants grow stronger, dig deeper with their roots. The following year, the compost can be dug in deeper yet, yielding stronger, healthier plants. It doesn't have to be dandelions or daikon although both are no doubt good. Most plants will go as deep as they can.
What I am getting at is that it isn't an overnight process to build good soil, though raised beds are the fastest way. Over years, the soil and the plants improve each year, raised beds or not.

I think that vermicomposting is the next best way to get the soil improved. Worms are attracted to wet layers of newspaper lots of mulch on top and everything you put there will be dragged down into the deep parts of soil.

Maureen and Chilko,
I beg to differ but I have THE WORST clay soil!!! I have worked in and on this horrible stuff for 20 years now. Single-handedly wetting, digging, wetting, digging, adding mulch, leaves, gypsum, compost, horse manure, corn cob grit, hay, veggie/fruit scraps; the list goes on and on and on......... It can not be broken or dug if dry, but don't wet it too much or it will either just wash over the top of the ground or IF it soaks in; be mush.
AAAUUUGGGHHH!!! Yes I want to scream often and my husband doesn't seem to "GET IT". He refuses to help me! Talk about HARD WORK!!! It is exhausting.
Most of my ground is "hardpan" on top. ALL soil has washed off the top. Many times after I work an area, the rain comes and washes all the good stuff right off the top and down to the creek. (This has even happened to the area that we have grass growing in. The top soil over the grass has been washed away and left the roots on or near the top of the ground.) I don't have even a half inch to an inch of anything on top. All of it is hardpan, clay, and normally has rock in with it too.
I have many areas that every few inches the rain washes off, I can go out and pick up layers of flat rocks covering the ground. Just wait for enough rain and go out again to pick up more flat rock covering the ground. And so on and so on.... And for some reason my husband thinks that the multiple layers of flat rocks don't inhibit the growth of plants and trees. Go figure. Men!
The unknowing onlookers and "knowledgable" folks inevitably say; "just use a tiller and til in compost". Idiots. They don't listen when I talk or they would have already heard me say the ground is like concrete. A tiller is worthless. Tillers don't even penetrate the ground. At all. The only locations a tiller can be used is where I've already done the (single-handed) manual labor (for years).
I have one area that I have worked for 4 years on. Still even though I have added ammendments and mixed and become exhausted; the ground hardens off on top and my plants barely survive. I have to periodically fork the ground and open it up for the water to penetrate.
Nightmare in Clay-ville. ~~~ Carol

I bet you feel a lot better now that you got that off your chest! Ahhhhhhhhhhh! Good work Carol. Well our time is finished the next session is in a week, same time. LOL

This is a really helpful thread -- thanks to all of you.

It definitely made me feel better about my clay soil.

Get more of an appreciation for your clay soil by reading my post above.

Compost is an excellent idea, as long as it is good high quality compost.
You might want to do a test on it first.

The test: Get a peanut plant. Make a "tea" with the compost. Put some in a nylon stocking or cheesecloth and soak it in water for a few hours. A day will be more than enough. Water the peanut plant with the "tea.” If after an hour the leaves have shriveled, the compost is not good. This is likely due to an SU herbicide, possibly picloram.

For a lawn, rent an aerator that pulls out "plugs" of the soil. After, apply 1/2" - 1" of good compost over the lawn and water it in. The best time of year to do this is in the fall.

Get good compost and till it in the beds. This should be the only time you till. Add some expanded shale. It is also beneficial to add volcanic rock powders to the bed: lava sand greensand... Zeolite is a good product, too. You do not need to add the lava sand if you live in an area that already has volcanic rock in the soil. Add some cornmeal and dry or liquid molasses to the mix. Microbes will do their job and you will be pleased with the results!

Most of all do NOT use synthetic fertilizers. This will only make things worse.

Cheers!

About 'Subsoil':

Where I am, I have to pay $3 for 50# of sand, and even a cubic yard of sand is very expensive by the time they deliver it. If I had SANDY subsoil (not too many pebbles or rocks) I would bring a few inches of it up into the clay layer. I would be willing to screen out the pebbles if I could get free sand! I already have to screen river pebbles out of my clay, just to rescue the clay! Evidently the builders thought that pebbles and rocks were decorative, or at least low-maintenance.

I recently read that good loam can be 50% sand! No wonder I haven't been able to make loam just by adding organics to clay! It is amazing to me that sand is more expensive than aged manure. (Is it obvious that I live in a fairly urban area?)

I wish I could find a subsoil layer in my yrad! Anywhere in my yard that I've dug deep, I just find more clay, or clay plus big rocks. I've thought of renting a powered post-hole digger, to try to dig a "chimney" or well down to a layer that DOES drain, but I would feel pretty silly digging as deep as that would go, and just finding more clay plus rocks.

Instead I run shallow trenches along slight slopes.