Well I decided to go containers this season, for several reasons~ one I need to read more about this Pierce disease that affects Texas grapes...I need to make sure I find the perfect space in the yard for them.....I have some rearranging to do in the front yard area where I'd like to put them....meaning I have a ton of daylilies to move to make room for the trellis' and grapes. The containers are huge, I'm not sure the size, but I'd say larger than 10 gallon....they should be fine, from what I read, for the first growing season....I think they'll have enough room for their roots to be comfortable....I didn't make a mistake...did I??
Anyone grow Grapes??
Makes perfect sense to me!! I thought maybe you were going to keep them in containers. I understand the rearranging of things. I had to move a crepe myrtle and a kidneywood shrub to make some room for mine. Have you found any info on Pierce disease? From the folks I talked to... keep everything organic and you will have no problem. I don't know of any vinyards who practice this... there may be a few... just haven't heard of them. I do know some individuals who have used it with great success. Do you listen to that organic gardening show on the radio on the weekends? That might be one place to check it out. Good luck... keep in touch... Tom
Pierce's Disease, an incurable bacterial infection of the xylem, is spread by the Sharpshooter so, if your varieties of grapevines are susceptible, they may get it whether they are kept in a pot or are in the ground. The bacterium is indigenous to the Gulf Coast area. The site (by tamu) I have enclosed states that not all carriers are know, but there are measures one can take to avoid or put off getting sick vines. And, silverfluter, one of the ways is to use insecticides within the vineyard. Another way is to get varieties that can either tolerate or are immune to the bacterium. I read somewhere that all European grape varieties are susceptible to the bacterium. Muscadines are immune. Immunity to Pierce's Disease is wny there is a renewed interest in Munson grapes. Many of his cultivar were immune to it. This website has quite a bit of useful information and has links to other excellent sites.
I bought my two Glenora grapevines before looking for their susceptibility to Pierce's. My google search was not good news. These are susceptible and are usually dead within 7 years according to one tamu article. :-(
http://winegrapes.tamu.edu/grow/diseases/piercesdisease.shtml
Being an alumnus, I know the folks at TAMU do lots of studies. But its these same folks are the ones who told someone I know that the concord grape they planted north of San Antonio would be dead in 2 years. The vine is now 8 years old... go figure. Basically... insecticides are like modern day drugs... they are reported to do this, then a couple years later they find out what problems they are really causing. Give the plants what they need, like everything they need, and they will do fine. Using resistant root stock is always a good choice, but go the extra step and give them a wholesome environment to live in.
I'm not big on using insecticides unless absolutely needed.....since I won't be growing a grape vineyard, just a few grapevines for my personal consumption, I probably won't use any insecticides......if I do see the sharpshooters I'll physically remove them....let's hope that won't be necessary..lol~
You can only hope that your grapes won't fall to Pierce disease, besides you can't always believe everything you read, although the info is there to warn you, sometimes Mother Nature has a way of proving man wrong~Let's hope this is the case...
Tom I agree with you about insecticides.....besides I have a pond, pets, and love birds, my lizards, frogs, and other assorted critters....
I do know that European wineries , and vineyards bought many California grapevines, and California rootstock when Pierce disease wiped the vineyards years ago.... The vines I'm growing are Zinfindel, Thompson, and Red Blush....so far they look absolutely fantastic!! crossing my fingers, and toes....
Betty where did you find the info on suseptible grapes?? Thanks for the Pierce disease site~ Debra~
Some wine growers in Germany told us that it was the wild mustang grape root stock from Texas that saved the european wine industry back in the late 1800's, could be wrong about the dates.
Silverfluter,
The rootstock that saved the European wine industry was developed by Thomas Munson from crosses of different Texas wild grapes. Look back at my entry to this thread of March 26th. The article I read was very interesting, but there may be more information about his work on the Internet.
My two Glenora grapevines are growing well and look very healthy. Now for the bad news. I found some long narrow beetles on some of my Brugmansias starting last week. I finally identified them as sharpshooters. I'm on pins and needles. Will they go after my grapevines? The unbelievable thing is that my Texas Bug Book says that sharpshooters have no economic importance.
Oh no Betty! I hate to hear that...hopefully they haven't messed with your grapes....is there just one type of sharpshooter?? I doubt it knowing how the bug world works lol~ Maybe you caught these bugs soon enough...you did destroy them I hope....Debra~
I have a Thompson seedless red, and a Thompson white grape. Both are doing extremely well and are both producing their first season.
The red is putting out more grapes than foliage, but the white is putting out more foliage than grapes.
The white is monstrously big! I planted a one gallon pot from Wal-mart that was 8 inches tall in Spring. The entire west side of my house is now covered from that one grape vine just a few months later ...
-T
Do you have any pictures to share?? I'd love to see your grapevines, sounds like you know what you're doing...any tips you'd like to share....all experience is appreciated...good or bad, we learn from mistakes as well, although sounds like you don't have any~ Debra~
Seedpicker, is your white grapevine getting a lot of fertilizer? Rampant growth is often an indication that a grapevine is getting too much fertilizer. It's also possible that it a lot younger than the red one. It sounds as if you vines like where they are.
Debra, the Texas Bug Book, only describes 1 sharpshooter. Googling for Texas sharpshooters comes up with the same thing. With the damage they are capable of doing, we really don't need anymore. Right now, they seem happy enough sucking on my Brugmansias. I'm hoping the systemic rose pesticide kills them before they get to my grapevines.
Veronica
Veronica, I was assuming that your name was Betty, because of your screen name...sorry~ I sure hope the sharpshooters don't do too much damage to your brugs...it seems they'd lose interest since the stem is hollow.....Debra~
Debra,
I sure hope that systemic pesticide starts to work quickly. I should have paid closer attention to what the cardinals were doing out there. Just after I applied the systemic pesticide, I notice the cardinals were looking for insects amoung the Brugmansias and my plumeria. Now I have to hope the cardinals stay away from any dead or dying insects. I'd hate to poison cardinals.
Veronica
Here is the Thompson seedless red:
Here is the Thompson seedless white:
Notice how much smaller they are than the red...(they flowered several weeks later than the red, so got a later start)
And here is the entire wall that the white is on. I only planted a small one gallon pot last Spring. Most of this growth was from last year. It will really pick up its growth when it gets hot, and I'll probably start having to do some *cutting*, lol...
I have not given either the white or the red any fertilizer. They are both under the eave of the house(this is only the white though...the red is on another section of the house on the same west-facing side) , so get less rainwater than most of the rest of the garden. They seem to do well with neglect and heat. Since they've both gotten the same treatment(or in this case neglect, lol) I assume it is the "habit" of the red to be a better fruit producer than the white...
Next I'd like to plant some champagne grapes...just running out of room!
-T
Lovely pictures T...wow I'm so jealous.....lookie I see grapes...well almost~ Your plants look great! How much sun do these vines get??
My grape vines are doing well...I'm just wondering how I'm going to stake these container grown grapes....argh! I do have a lattice fence, but I have roses growing on themmm.I'm tempted to set them amongst the roses for now, one of the benefits of growing young vines in containers.....this will keep them happy this growing season, until I find the exact place to set them in the ground....
Veronica I sure hope your cardinals don't get poisoned either...one of the downfalls of pesticides.....perhaps you need to set a small birdfeeder near your breugs next growing season...with little feed, just to draw the birds to the bugs...then again hopefully you won't have this sharpshooter problem next season.... Debra~
Hey Tom! How are your grapevines doing???
RSD-
These are on a west facing hot brick wall. They get very intense hot sun from about noon until sunset. (Plus, the reflected heat off the brick wall.)
I think roses with grapes as a background, would look nice, and do very well together!
-T
seedpicker_TX,
Your photo of the Thompson Seedless red shows a lot of clusters, probably more than the vine can handle well. Next year, you may want to prune off some of the clusters so those remaining can produce larger grapes. Getting plenty of water during their development also helps to produce larger grapes. Cut back before they ripen to increase their sugar content.
Have you planted your roses yet? Roses are heavy feeders whereas grapevines are not unless you want rampant growth, usually at the expense of fruit. Both roses and grapevines need fertilizer if they are to stay as healthy as possible, but not at the same rate. I don't know if you use any kind of systemic pesticide on your roses, but it shouldn't be used near edible plants and fruit. Some time during the year, I end up spraying my roses for black spot. If you spray also, some of that pesticide will end up on your grapes.
Think about putting in plants that have the same or nearly the same requirements as the grapevines. I can just imagine having to brave all those thorns to harvest the grapes.
I like the trellis you put in. It gives a good background to your grapevines.
Good point, but I never used pesticides, so that didn't even occur to me...also my grapvines get a lot less water since they are under the eave. A rose in front would not be under the eave and would get more water.
You are right, though, probably not the best combination and you certainly would get stuck by thorns reaching for the grapes...
Sun requirements and heat requirements are the same, though, but you are right about the water and fertilizer requirements being different...
Thank you for the advice about clipping the red, but it is my very first "crop", so could not bear to cut any. I'll get braver as time goes on...lol...
I think you are supposed prune heavy after setting fruit, so you'll have growth for next years grapes, right? That is when I'll get to clipping...should have thinned by 1/3, but I just couldn't cut them...they're so cute! lol...
-T
Grapevines are pruned when dormant. It is true grapes produce fruit on year-old wood, but iIf you prune heavily after fruit set, the plant loses the ability to support the fruit you are trying to raise. The growth your vines are making this year will provide the year-old for next year's fruit. This coming winter you need to decide whether you are goint to use the cane or the spur method of growing grapes and prune accordingly. It's OK to cut back a stray branch or two during the growing season. I've included 3 links that will help you decide which method to use. The first two links have general information. The third link has a section about Thompson grapes that might help.
http://cekern.ucdavis.edu/Custom_Program667/Reasons_and_Rules_of_Pruning_Grapevines.htm
http://winemakermag.com/departments/19.html
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/filelibrary/616/5855.htm
Thank you!
Actually I know there is a method to pruning them, I just haven't really needed to yet, and so have been lazy about learning how.
Thank you for the gentle prod! I need it...lol...
and, thank you for the links.
-T
Veronica would you explain this please...cane or the spur method ?? I'm interested...thanks~ Debra~
Debra,
Bear with me while I define some terms.
The shoots put out by a grapevine this year are called canes after the leaves fall off.
Nodes are thickened areas on a cane where last year's leaves were located and from where the new buds will emerge next year.
A spur is a short cane with 1 to 3 buds on it.
Grapevines are pruned to renew fruiting wood, to control growth and to limit the number of grape clusters. A grapevine with too many grape cluster will produce small inferior grapes and incomplete clusters.
Next year's growth is regulated by the way a grapevine is pruned. Using the cane method, you replace the old canes with new ones every year. Bud spurs kept close to the base of each cane will produce the following year's canes, etc.
The spur method retains the same canes. The buds on those canes will develop into spurs. Pruning entails leaving 1 or 2 new buds on each spur. I found a link with illustrations that are much easier to follow than a lengthy explanation. A grapevine trained up an arbor would be pruned using the spur method.
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/edmat/html/EC/EC1305/EC1305.html#prun
Thank you so much Veronica for all the great information...and the link! Geesh I wonder who does all the pruning in the California vineyards?? lol what a job! I have until January to learn exactly what it is I need to do, for next years growth....it's a bit confusing isn't it?? Debra~
One of California's oldest single family owned vineyards and winery used to be just downhill from us in San Jose. I had a lot of time to observe. The hard part is to have the patience to do it properly. It's such a temptation to leave just one more branch, one more grape cluster. Vineyards are labor intensive although many wineries are harvesting mechanically.
Veronica
I'll post this a few other places... but does anyone have a source for netting to keep birds off of grape vines? We have 6 vines that will need covering soon. I saw the cardinals checking on the grapes yesterday, they are starting to turn red now. Thanks for any help... Tom
Silverfluter I just bought mine at HD (also bought a pack at Wal-mart) It was humm about 14 ft wide and 14ft long (not exact as I have NO spatial concept) for about 6 or 7 bucks. Very sturdy an has worked well for me.
Geesh you have grapes!!?? any pictures?? boy am I jealous! Debra~
Here they are... this is the concord vine... they are very sweet and yummy, a little bit better than the fredonia vine. One of the pinot noir vines even made one cluster this year... and I just planted it not long ago. I know I should have pruned it off... but what the hay!!!.... Tom
That is so pretty, does it make you feel like you're in wine country?
:-)
Tom, I'm soooooooooooo jealous!! That's so wonderful to see.....all the clustres of grapes!! What are you going to call the wine?? lol......I truly am jealous tho....do you use any fertilizers?? or is this plant just happy?? Debra~
Do you see the edging stones? They make a 3 foot circle. I dug out the dirt down to about 8 inches... a little deeper in the center to allow for the root stock. I mixed some of the dirt with compost, texas green sand, lava sand, gypsom, dry molasses, corn meal and 6-2-2 organic fertilizer, and filled the hole with that mixture. I then covered the area with cedar mulch. I pruned about half the clusters off this year, it is only their second year of growth. On that pinot noir that put on one cluster this year. The root stock was akmost 3/4 inch thick, so it must have lots of stored energy in it some place. Some of the root stock I received was maybe 1/4 inch thick... had to baby those a bit more. The bird block is definitely working. I haven't noticed any more peck marks since I covered them. I'm definitely looking forward to next years crop. Ah... no wine this year... not enough grapes to mess with... maybe next year... but probably the year after. I will have 6 vines in good production then!!! Stay tuned... Tom
Tom-
Congrats on your grapes!
Looks like you are only about ...what is it?...two hours? from me. I looked really hard at your picture, and saw that your grapes are doing the same thing that mine are doing.
They are ripening (each grape) at different stages, instead of the bunch as a whole. Are we supposed to cut them off so they'll ripen all together?
Now I am wondering how the grocery store grapes are always all ripe at the same time...
If I ate my grapes they way they are ripening on the vine right now, I'd be eating one or two off a cluster at a time, and waiting for the rest to catch up, lol..
Anyone know?
-T
Seedpicker... as far as I know... if you let them hang out long enough, all of the cluster will turn the same color. But if you are like me, you can't wait that long and have to sample them as soon as they look ripe. That might be a good idea if you are going to eat them, that way you don't end up with more grapes than you can eat all at once. For wine its best to let them hang out till they are all same color. Keep in mind these plants are only on their second year here, that might have something to do with it... guess we will find out next year!!
The last time I drove to Plano, it took more like 4 1/2 hours, not 2... what map were you looking at??
Maggie... considering all the wineries around here... I think we are in the middle of wine country, even though it is not like the Rhine Valley where you see nothing but miles and miles of vinyards.
Tom-
some of the grapes on my clusters actually ripen (and rot) before others on the same bunch even turn color...guess mine needs a bit more age, too...?
Well, I cannot ever seem to rely on my memory anymore...lol...I took a trip there with my boyfirend(years ago, before I married) and it seemed like it only took a few hours...I guess it must have taken longer than I remembered!
Or, was it Jefferson?? Maybe it was Jefferson...
-T
Well... my curiosity got the better of me, I tried one of the green grapes, it was almost as sweet as the purple ones. So I guess you can harvest them when the majority on the cluster turn purple. But will also wait and see next year if they all turn faster. Some of the clusters are almost all purple now, they are turning quickly. They are yummy to snack on for sure!!!!!.... Tom
I second that, they are yummy! Met Tom and Mary Lee at Schumacher's this morning, and Tom was kind enough to bring some samples from his vines. Both the Fredonia and the Concord were wonderful! Wish I had a place to grow them.