Advice Please!

Hello All.

I am a novice Brugmansia grower who is very excited at becoming an expert at growing these amazing plants. With all the experts on this forum, I'm sure I will someday! I am currently growing four Rosamond X Ecuador Pink seedlings that RikerBear generously shared with me. They have been growing like weeds and have been very healthy. However, I must now be doing something terribly wrong.

In the last week, the new leaves have either been growing out deformed and/or curled, or simply turn black when very small and drop off. The attached picture shows the growing point (you can see where the new leaves have been falling off, and even some of their black remains). Also please notice the leaves at one o'clock and four o'clock, which are deformed/curled and somewhat discolored.

What have I done to dishonor Marc's kindness? The plants are growing under lights in a room that never gets below 60F. I keep them moist but not wet and have lately been misting them often on the chance that they have spider mites (I haven't seen any, but I have a number of plants under the lights, so it's not completely out of the question). I lightly fertilize them every couple weeks.

Any advice anyone could offer would be sincerely appreciated. These plants must bloom next summer!

Erick

I'm not sure what is wrong, but I let them nearly dry out between waterings. I wait until they are showing signs of beginning to wilt before I water. Also, I see something on top of your soil. Would that be the problem? It looks like some kind of mold maybe? Spider mites would be a good guess. Put a piece of white paper under one or two of the leaves and tap the leaves to see if anything falls off the under side of them. Mites will show up on the paper if they do let loose of the plant. A magnifying glass will help you see them too. I can generally see them without the magnifying glass and generally in the house it is easier to see the webbing. Are you feeding them? These are just a couple of places to start. I don't think you need to worry about them dying at this point though.

I was told by someone............. on here.......but I forget whom ( I want to say Hummernut)......... that when the top does this, it is a sign of broadmites. I have had this happen to me and I spray with Neem oil once a week for 3 weeks and they are cured! Good luck!!

Erick,

I had the same looking leaves (the new ones). I checked but could not see any webs so decied they must be the Broadmites that I heard about but had no experience with. I had some experience with the spider mites and find that the systemic bug killer is the only thing that gets them. I was using the systemic that comes with rose fertilizer because that is what I had and I live quite a ways from any facilities to buy anything else but I was not comfortable using that in the house. Especially on the plants in my bedroom. I did anyway. And seem to have taken care of the problem.

But, my daughter came to visit for the holidays and brought me some Bonide. That is a systemic that is safe to use in the house. I have not had to use it yet but I am hoping it is as strong as the other because that stuff works.

When we went to pick up my daughter at the airport I bought some neem oil but still have not used that either. I think you should give that a try and let us know how it works.

Jeanette

Thank you all very much for the most helpful advice. I sincerely appreciate it.

Brugie, I will take your advice and cut back on the watering. The white stuff on the top of the soil in the picture is perlite that has washed up out of the soil, although it certainly does look like mold from a distance! I do lightly feed my Brugs every couple weeks. I will also take your advice about more carefully checking for mites.

Kell and Jnette, thank you for your recommendations on mite treatments. I will pick up some neem oil this afternoon and apply it to my brugs tonight as a initial effort. Hopefully that will take care of the problem.

Thank you all again. You are very kind to take the time to offer me your excellent advice.

Erick

Make sure you get the undersides totally. Neem acts by suffocating. See the 2 leaves that are turning down on themselves? That is a sign of broadmites also. They go after the new, top growth first.

Thank you Kell. I will be very thorough in covering the Brugs with the neem oil, and pay particular attention to the undersides of the leaves. Those broadmites don't stand a chance!

Erick

LOL Erick! You go guy, you go!

Hi Erick:
I'm not a Brug grower (YET) but if I see what I think I see you may have a problem with salts building up on/in the soil. In your photo it appears that you have a white and or yellow crust building up on the top of your soil. If so, that can be very hard on the plants. Are you by chance using soft water on your plants? Don't!!!! If it is as I say, the "crust" build up, scrape off as much as possible. Then when your plant needs a GOOD watering, plunge the intire pot in water until all bubbles stop. Lift the plant out of the water and let it drain VERY WELL! This helps to desolve the salt build up in the soil. Just make sure it drains well. Then, when ever you water, water until it runs through the pot, washing more salt away. But draining WELL each time. Over fertilizing can also cause salts to build up but the "drenching and draining" helps to prevent it.

I have been a greenhouse grower in the past but, if you care to, let this set here to see if others agree with me, OR disagree. But I do know that salts can truly hurt plants. Though as I say I have not had experience with the Brugs.

Just trying to offer some help, if there is a salt build up, as it appears in the photo.

Richard T.

Hello Richard.

Thank you very much for taking the time to offer your expertise on potential issues with my Brugs. It was an excellent reminder of the importance of leaching salts out of my potted plants - something I could certainly do more often. My goal would be to get them all on a regular cycle to keep the soil as healthy as possible.

However, in the case of my Brugs, the white/yellow material on the top of the soil is just perlite that has washed up out of the soil. When I potted up the Brugs a couple months ago, I added perlite to the mix to lighten the soil. I then showered them down well in the shower, not realizing at the time that the perlite would simply float to the top of the soil (duh). Lesson learned (one of many over the last few years!).

Again, thank you for the good advice on soil health (which I will take!). I sincerely appreciate your kindness in taking the time to help me out.

All the best to you.

Erick

Richard, welcome to the Brug forum. You need to start growing some Brugs. I can't believe we haven't gotten you addicted. LOL

Erick, I hope you get your Brug problem solved.

Welcome Richard, glad to hear your ideas. Pictures aren't always what they seem to be. I don't think Erick's plant has been in there long enough to get a salt build-up on the soil. It looks farily new.

I would have thought a white mold right next to the log like that. I had a couple of those and spritzed them with the distilled water, palmolive dish soap and hydrogen peroxide and it took care of the problem immediately.

Who would have thought those were a peralite problem. LOL Think the only cure for that is to remove said peralite. LOL

I think Erick's problem with the new leaves turning black, misshapen and/or falling off are mites. Erick, did you try the neem oil? Think I would panic and put some systemic on them.

Kell, are we suppose to mix the neem with anything? Or spray it straight? There are no directions on the bottle.

Jeanette

I am a Neem addict. It started probably 2 years ago when I looked at my most coveted L'A. At that time, L'A was very rare. I was in ecstasy just having it!

Suddenly it looked all deformed. I was sure it was the dreaded SB!! I emailed Susie some pics, I totally freaked out. I made the decision to leave the plant alive though I sprayed it with Neem, as my husband yelled at me I was going to miss my plane.

I was off to New Jersey to see my very ill Father, which turned out to be his funeral. The leaves looks so virused I was sure all my brugs were now doomed.

I came back 1 month later and my L'A plant was glorious and in full bloom. From then on I have paid homage to Neem Oil!

I spray it as directed, no additives.

Nice ending, glad you could save L'Amour!.........I use it and swear by it. Does the job well.

I would also suspect a Ca. deficiency with the hooked leaves and growing point dieing back.

Scooterbug, by Ca. do you mean calcium? And what do you use for that?

Listen up Erick, did you get that? This is how all of us newbies learn. Just by asking questions and hopefully getting them answered. Gotta eat a lot of eggs Erick, haha

Jeanette

This message was edited Dec 31, 2004 9:21 AM

I use ground egg shells in the bottom of my planting holes. Bone meal contains calcium, but dogs love it. You can probably find other products to buy from searching online.

I sincerely appreciate all this good advice and will definitely act on it. I've already thoroughly applied the neem oil and am optimistic that it will take care of the problem. Thank you everyone! Hopefully the next picture I post of my Brugs will be showing off their gorgeous flowers!

Erick

Erick,

After looking at Shirley's (Brugie's) post, I looked up Calcium deficiency in plants on google. That is how I entered it. Google left out "in". Anyway, I actually did look at the tomato and potato articles. Then I went to the 5th one down, I think it was just plain "calcium" and it was very interesting. Actually they all were.

I had been giving my plants Elenors VF 11. Well, I got some Peters 20-20-20 and that might correct the problem.

Did I say that I think maybe Shirley is right? Anyway, according to this article you (we) maybe need to get some calcium for a folier spray. Altho I am wondering if Epsom Salts might fix the PH. I always use it on my tomatoes and that might be a plan.

Take a look and let me know what you think.

Jeanette

Jeanette,
Be carefull. Deficiencies come about from imbalance. Using the wrong amount or the wrong mineral can start a domino effect. One thing at a time.

I fully believe in using a micro mineral mix as foliar spray once a week or watered in once a month.Hopefully this should keep the balance.

This is the brand I use. One pound 'dry' makes 200 gal.
I refuse to buy liquids and pay for shipping the water someone else has added .... lol
http://www.bghydro.com/page/BHOS/PROD/DN/NDMICRO

They have other dry formulas too.

I wish you luck with the VF11. They sent me 4 sample bottles and in the long run I was not impressed.
Altho I did like it for transplanting anti-shock treatment.

Mineral deficiencies

http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/min-def/sugrbeet.htm

So Scoot, are you saying the Epsom Salts wouldn't balance out the PH? I quit using the VF 11 and switched to Peters. So, what if I went to the micro mineral mix as a folier spray with Peters. Maybe used the ES also?

I'm not a chemist. All I want to do is grow some plants that aren't deformed.

Jeanette

I just love Eleanors VF 11. So there Scoot! LOL. No, I really do. I use it as a foliar spray on my tiny bruglings before I use fertilizer on them. I also use it as a foliar feed on my flowering annuals and I get great flowers. I swear by it. Funny how things work for different people. I call it my tonic

On the other hand, I bought Peters last summer and it did nothing. I went back to Miracle Grow. But to be honest I use everything and anything. I also like using alfalfa with epsom salts and fish emulsion stirred in.

And knowing me, I will probably now order that stuff Scoot uses. Monkey see, monkey do.

yup, but you live in kalifornie where ain't nothin' the same ...........


Well the first thing you know ol kell's's a millionaire,
Kinfolk said "Kell move away from there"
Said "Kaliforny is the place you ought to be"
So she loaded up her brugs and moved to Beverly...............

Hills, that is. Swimmin pools, movie stars, large pink brugs.


Well now its time to say goodbye to Kell and all her brugs.
And Kell would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in.
You're all invited back again to this locality
To have a heapin helpin of her hospitality

Ok Erick,

Now what are you going to do??? Did you follow all of that? Ready to go to Kalifornie?

Don't give up your membership because of this. It's New Years Eve and I think those 2 are celebrating a little early. LOL

Jeanette

I like that millionaire part Scoot!! I am ready.

Erick, are you out there? Have you seen any results from the neem oil? I know it seems like a short time. Jeanette

Hello Jeanette.

Happy New Year to you!

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any real improvement in my brugs yet. I've treated them twice with a neem oil product (Garden Safe Fungicide 3 with .9% neem oil) and it doesn't seem yet that the new growth is recovering. I'll spray them again next week, but I'm thinking I might need to use a product with a higher neem oil %? I'm still digesting all the great information above about fertilizing.

Thank you for asking, by the way. I am determined to nurse these brugs back to health!

Erick

Erick, you might try submerging the whole plant in 110 degree water for 15 minutes. I've heard that this is a good way to get rid of ANY mite problems. If I have the temp or time wrong, someone please correct me.

Hi Shirley, I've read that too and if I could remember where I read it I would look it up. Maybe someone else would know.

Jeanette

Oh Erick,I do not think you have given them enough time. The leaves affected are goners. They will never change back. Watch the new growth come up, that is the only way to tell. In the winter they grow much slower than in the summer. So you have a bit of a wait. Also the growth tip may have been damaged, so it may take longer to see. Remember, you can kill them with kindness.

Thank you all for the additional great advice. I'll be patient, and give them another neem treatment this week. If I don't see signs of significant improvement in the next few weeks, I'll look into other approaches, e. g. the submersion idea (sounds promising).

You are all very kind to assist me with this project. Thank you.

Erick

Erick,.

Do you have your brugs in the house? If they are in a room where it won't hurt anything I would get some of the "Rose Pride Systemic rose and flower care" and take care of the problem. This is going on 2 weeks.

It does have a fertilizer 8-12-4. I don't think using it once is going to interfere with any program you have them on. Do Not use much. If the container you have your plants in is small I am talking about less than a teaspoon.

In the summer I have my rose in a large cedar planter and use about a tablespoon on it.

Good Luck and keep us posted. Jeanette

I use the Bayer systemic rose stuff on mine outside for regular mites and it didn't touch broad mites. I wonder if it is the same active ingredients as in yours, Jnette. If it weren't raining I would go out and grab my bottle to tell you what is in mine. I thought only Bayer had the patent now for systemic ground products.

Who makes yours Jnette? I would like to try it. I just hate spraying chemicals, but ground systemics are great. I used to use an Ortho rose care one, a couple of years ago, but they lost the patent and stopped making it. They now sell the systemic insecticide in a spray can and attach it to the container of fertilizer.


I will echo Jnette's advice. It can kill your plant fast if it is like the Bayer one. The Bayer one has fertilizer in it also and I think it is the fertilizer that can really burn the plant. I have had scrape off the top of the dirt trying to get rid of it after the leaves show they are all burned. So use just a small amount esp on a small pot. The bigger ones usually can recover but small ones seem to get their roots too burned to recover.

What I worked out after learning the hard way, is I water my brugs well, then wait 2 days and sprinkle the insecticide over the top of the pot evenly so no part gets too much. Then I water well.

Again though, you will need new leaves to grow up before you can tell if it worked. It is not like regular mites where you can see them.

I hate mites. They are the bane of my existence. I remember when I had none for years and years. Then I got some plant that had them I guess and my great bug free life was over. I just have too many brugs to totally eradicate them. They seem to just lay in wait until I think I have them licked then they delight in showing up in a new location! LOL GOOD LUCK to you!!

I have had this for a while. It says Ortho, Rose Pride, Solaras
trademarks of Monsanto. DI-SYSTON, trademark of Bayer Leverkeuson

Manufactured by Solaras Group of Monsanto, 1998

I have used this stuff for years and I don't think, at least I can'r remember, ever burning a plant with it. If I did I would take the plant out of the soil it is in and maybe even soak the roots in water and then repot in good soil. I guess I have never had Broadmites because whatever these were it got them. It always has.

I have been using it on my brugs that I have planted in cut off 64 oz apple juice bottles. Like I said before I have my plants in my bedroom right next to my bed and that bothered me so my daughter found Bonide for me.

It says "Systemic Houseplant Insect Control" Contains 2% DI-SYSTON. mfg by Bonide. I think if my plants had it as long as Ericks I would be more apt to use the stronger one because the Bonide might make them immune to the stuff.

That is just going to be something Erick needs to decide how serious it is. Jeanette

Oh too bad, I am pretty sure it is now unavailable Jnette, unless you get some old stock. I just went to the Ortho site and they do not have it anymore, they have a spray. Bayer bought up the patents. That is why you see an explosion of Bayer products now. Too bad, I was eager to try a new thing!

I will take a look for what Brugie, Karrie and now you have found, that Bonide systemic. Sometimes I like to give a soil systemic to my plants prophylactically when I find one plant that has bugs just in case a few have wandered before I find them. Even if it does not kill them, I hope it makes the plants very unappetizing so they won't set up house.


Good luck Erick! The good thing about Neem is that it suffocates lots of kinds of bugs. If it doesn't work, maybe you can take more pictures and Monika will step in and help you. Who knows, the problem may be due to something else.


This message was edited Jan 11, 2005 1:00 AM

Tracey told me that DI-SYSTON is something that will take care of anything and everything but it stinks and to be sure to use it a couple of days before bringing the plants in the house. I looked and looked and couldn't find it. Finally I did find it at one distributer, but only nurseries could by it and I believe it may now only be sold to people who have an applicator's license. Bummer. I was looking for that quick fix. So Jeanette, be stingy with what you have left. I wouldn't use it unless necessary. Sounds like you have a bag of gold there.

I did find this insecticide by another name at this address. Kind of expensive.
http://stores.ebay.com/CHAMBERS-FARM-AND-GARDEN_FARM-AND-GARDEN-CHEMICALS_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQftidZ2QQtZkm This means, at least this concentration of it, doesn't require a license.

Shirley, the Bonide has DI-SYSTON in it. So maybe the Bonide is stronger than I thought. Jeanette

Shirley, I just looked at the site that you posted and it is on ebay. But, I am totally confused. It says to use it on vegetables !!! Can you explain this to me?

Jeanette

I guess I don't know what you are looking for.....it says it is for use on vegetables(plants), trees and shrubs, flowers and houseplants.