Devastation in the greenhouse last night

We got down to l6 degrees last night, no frost outside, but frost all over the greenhouse plastic inside, all my brugmansias are wilted, (pictures follow) stove didn't do it's job, don't understand, it should have stayed warm. sending pictures, need help as to what to do , it's suppose to get colder tonight. Also, last picture is my garage, I'm planning on bringing the brugs in there tonight, and warming it through the utility window, with wood heat. worked great last winter, better than the greenhouse is. Everything else in the gh is ok.

kathy_ann

first pic, is the stove, that fan behind it is on high, and there's another fan above the stove that was on, it's piped to the center of the greenhouse. the stove vent was not on full blast last night, it was half open half closed.
would it make a diff to put the stove pipe inside the gh more and run it through the tin ceiling.

this is the outside, we do loose alot of heat.

some of the brugs, do you think they'll live through this. some look more damaged than others, and the little ones in the cups, have small amount of frost on the leaves as well.

more wilted brugs, this one is taller, and the 6 foot ones look like this one too, doesn't seem to be frost , on these just wilt.

I just went to the gh again, to check the temp, it's gone up a few degrees, it's 20 outside, but I went over to the stove, and it's just not very warm over there by the stove either, I checked the pipe outside, it's heavy, like it's full of criso build up. which could be. but that shouldn't stop the heat from building up in the greenhouse should it? have to tell dh see if he can take the pipe apart tonight and bang it out.

Those wilted brugs, are definitely going to loose their leaves after checking on them again, the leaves are shiny, as if frost had gotten to them. I have some brugs on the top shelf, they didn't get damaged at all. and the ones in the back of the greenhouse, the real tall ones, got damaged. I so hope I don't loose them, Their definitely going into the garage. I really didn't think we'd have this problem. We only have a couple gaps in the back door, which dh is going to close up tonight, their not big gaps, we already covered the windows with tyvac. you can see that pipe up on top that pipes the heat to the center of the greenhouse, it's blowing not so hot air right now, not cold but not hot either. I'm really worried abou t the greenhouse tonight.

more frost pictures. the only thing that got any kind of damage last night was the brugmansias, everything else, even the tomatoes are fine. go figure.

here' s some more brug pictures.

I'm going to call dh and see if I can run to sam's and pick up a good electric heater for really cold nights, when it's in the teens, seems 30 degree weather isn't so hard on the greenhouse, it stays around 50 in there with the stove, but the teen weather, it looks like the stove isn't going to help much. it was l6 last night and 32 in the greenhouse. It's been averaging about l5 to 20 degrees warmer inside than outside. Can't get any warmer than that.


these are the gallon brugs on the top shelf, looks like only one got any kind of damage

This greenhouse was full of brugs I tell ya LOL can't you tell. here's some of the babies, I think they are going to be ok though. It's funny, the tall brugs, some of them didn't sustain damage on top but on the bottom leaves that's whee they sustained damage, and other brugs, have damage all over them.

woops, here's the babies

On those brugs that recieved damage, are they savable? If I cut the frost bitten part off?

kathy

I don't know the answers to your questions, I'm just posting to say BLESS YOUR HEART!!!

Judy

Kathy, leave them alone for now. When they warm up they will loose a lot of leaves and you will be able to tell how far down the stems froze. You will need to cut off any frozen parts and watch for botrytis. It is a fungus that looks fuzzy and spreads fast, so if you see it, use a fungicide. Don't water the brugs unless they are really dry because you don't want to cause root rot. Even if the whole top froze to the soil line, they should come back from the roots.
If you have a fan, turn it on and circulate the air. It will help keep the temps even thru the greenhouse and will also discourage fungus growth.
Do you use wood heat or is it some type of gas/oil?

Thanks calalily for the help, there's a picture of the wood stove up on top here, so far we've used only the wood stove, it is a big stove. And I also think the stove pipe is stopped up, cause I banged on it outside, and it sounded full and it was really heavy. so I'm thinking that might help heat the greenhouse better if we unstop it. Also, we have 3 fans in the gh. one is in th picture above, just a regular fan and one on top of the fan, it's a slow, low blowing blower type fan, doesn't blow hard,

and one above the door of the greenhouse, that you can feel the air flow to the other end of the greenhouse. I'm thinking that would be too much air flow don't you? 'We keep the other two going at night, and only use the powerful one in the summer time. I'm going to go out there and turn it on to see how fast it heats the other endo f the greenhouse, the temp is now about 50 in the greenhouse. and 30 outside. So the little fan inside by the stove being on high is helping spread the heat alot more. It wasn't turned on earlier this morn, when it was l6 outside. I've moved all the babies into the garage, I still like two more flats of babies , i'm pooped, not suppose to be lifting aything over 5 pounds LOL I went over board for sure. I'll leave the bigger brugs alone and see what happens to them, tonight we'll have an electric heater in there too, to help heat. so maybe things will beok, We'll only be using the electric heater when it's in the teens outside.

kathy

Judy, I saw your wrap around porch on the other posting, I'm jealous girl. it's beautiful. Just to be able to go out and see your plants that close to the house, wow! so neat. My christmas cactus is blooming too, but doesn't look near as nice as yours LOL.

kathy

Kathy, the two circulating fans should do fine. I just looked at the first pictures without enlarging them, sorry. I enlarged the brug pics to see what they looked like.
I bet your stove pipe is stopped up and isn't venting properly. It should help to unstop it.

Yeah, I think your right, I also noticed , the knob in the front of thestove that raises the little vent infront of the stove, well the chain is too long, and the vent doesn't get raised nearly enough to do any good, will tell dh abou t that tonight too. He's going to be coming in late tonight, so I have to get my son to move the gallon brugs into the garage. The third picture down is a picture of Southern belle I bought off ebay, she looks bad, I looked her over really good, and she's got frost bite on the stem down for about 3 or 4 in. I'm really upset about this one being damaged Boo Hoo.!!!.

I moved 9 flats of babies into the garage a while ago, still have 2 flats left and I brought in those two tables, I should be shot for moving those things in after having a heart attack a month ago and bypass surgery. LOL I figured I'd let me son bring in the rest of them.

I have other fragile things out there, I wonder why the brugs were the only thing that sustained damage?

kathy

here's a pic of the fan on top of the stove, it's all boxed in, and directly blowing into the pipe. The bottom is open, but then he stuck that tin up there and made it to where he could lower it, to help direct the heat a certain way, Now I don't know or think that the air can get to the inside of the fan, will hav e to mention that to him also.
Well, after looking at the pic again, there is a small gap in the front, that the air can get to the fan through.

kathy

here's the other fan that blows hard, and also I forgot, all along the tin on the top there, is a gap about l in wide, where air can escape, he was going to put some thing in there and never did, We're suffering now that all these things were left undone. And I'm afraid he won't have time to clean out the stove pipe tonight. I just hope that little electric heater I buy today will help out some.

You have a lot of Brugs. A Lot. I did notice you had other plants as will in your greenhouse. I guess the Brugs are more sensitive to the coldness. At lease you have a gh. I am limited to what I have because everything has to be in the house. I have noticed some of my starters the leaves has some brown spots starting. Yesterday I mixed up water and alcohol to a ratio of 1 to 1 and added some dish soap and sprayed them good. I have been noticing some small gnats flying around them.

hum, not sure what's going on with your brugs, but others will see the post and maybe they can help. There's a couple nurseries in town that want some of my brugs, That's the reason I have so many LOL

kathy

KathyAnn if those baby brug in the cups aren't rooted the cold will kill them so you may want to bring those inside. Got to get out side now and try to do some mulching and get the second electric heater hooked up I bought last night. I can't bear to take something out to freeze to make room on the floor for the propane cooker. Hope I am not messing up

I did notice I only have 1 brug that the leaves are that way, my Strawberry Cream, the rest are looking pretty good, especially for me. I am new at all this, and don't have much room. My problem is with Hibiscus in the house. I just got one off EBay a Variegated Red Snow Queen, about 3 weeks ago. The leaves are turning yellow, I know they seem to do this. This one has bloomed 3 times and already has 2 more buds on it. I wonder if I should cut off the buds.

I better get back to the business at hand.

I hope all your brugs make it thru there ordeal. There must be something wrong with your vent on the stove. Because it looks big enough to put out the heat. Are you using gas or propane?

Donna, I did bring in all the babies and all the brugs in gallon pots and some of the bigger ones, Got my son and daughter out there this evening and got it all done. their where it's warm now, All the babies were mostly rooted, there was one hawiian double white that rotted, I noticed that, the part at the top was still good, so I might cut off the rotten part and stick it back into the ground to see if it will root.

I have a wood burning stove pugdogs, and dh did tell me today that it wasn't stopped up, we've only burned wood in the stove about 6 or 7 nights now, it hasn't had enough time to get that much criso in there says he.

Also, your hibiscus, is probably just doing a normal thing by it coming into a new enviornment, leaves turning yellow and falling off is normal to some extent after going to a diff enviorment, it might even loose all it's leaves. I have one of those out in the greenhouse.

After bringing all the brugs into the garage, I did notice permanent damage to some of them, all the ones that were wilted, are really bad off now LOL, but not all te way to the pot, just damaged about 2 or 3 in down the stem, so I don't think i'll loose any of them.

Kathy, heat rises and if you have a 1in gap along your roof you are losing lots of your heat. Is there anyway your DH can stuff the gap with insulation or anything that will keep the heat from being drawn out?

I wonder why the stove is on the table?-- you might not have enough verticle rise in the pipe to draft well--if you have too much horizontal pipe and not enough verticle rise you will not draw enough air through the stove to burn the wood fast enough to create the heat you are needing--[from the picture I am guessing] you need to lower your stove to the ground, creating more draft by increasing the amount of verticle pipe comming out of your stove,and if the stove is more than 6 feet from the outside wall you may want to move it closer --the horrizontal pipe slows down the air drafting through the stove, - Michael

That was one of the first things I noticed too, MichalP. Also the height of the stove pipe needs to be higher than the top of the roof to draw well. I also don't see any clean-out (which is sure gonna be very helpful!) on the stovepipe, nor do I see a damper inline...do you have one of those installed, Kathy?

The "little vent infront of the stove" is referred to as the draft and should only be opened up when you are trying to get some good flames and hot fire going, but then closed once you get a good deal of hot coals going, fresh "nite time" wood added...that will make the stove burn all nite. At that time you should also close your damper, if you have one installed in the stovepipe.

An inch of space at the top of your greenhouse lets a tremendous amount of heat escape, as snowhermit said. That should be a first priority for now.

It looks to me like you also only have a single layer of plastic on your greenhouse...the moisture caused because of the differences in temperature (inside vs outside) will easily appear on the inside of the plastic and collect there. When the ambient temp in the g-house is not sufficient then yes, you'll witness "frost" inside. Adding a second layer of plastic (with an airspace of a couple inches between the two layers) will certainly pay off.

I can't really tell how big the whole g-house is so it's hard to make suggestions concerning your heat source, however, I seriously doubt a little electric heater will offer you much benefit. I'd be more inclined to suggest you section off some of the g-house with plastic (a g-house within a g-house), move your plants into it and let the wood stove just heat that half, or quarter, area.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Thanks michael and horshoe,


WE are going to take care of the l in gap, unfortunately dh didn't get home til 9:00 last night, and couldn't do much to help the situation, but this weekend we will spend time on the greenhouse getting it ready for the next jcold spout, the rest of the week is 30's and 26 to 28, which is alot warmer than l3 to l5 that we've had the last 2 days. This is quite unusual for us weather wise.

Ok for the answers to the greenhouse. I will tell dh about putting the stove on the floor, that shouldn't be a problem at all. and to put longer pipe inside to reach the outer pipe. and No right at themoment there is not a damper on there, we have one, LOL laying on the table where the wood stove is, he was going to put it in, but I had that heart attack and spent the week in the hospital and he never had time to do it then. but we'll do that this weekend too.
And as for the plastic, I really wanted to line the inside of the greenhouse with plastic too this summer, but was too scared to ask LOL fraid he wouldn't think it would be use ful. Now i'm sorry I didn't mention it. I can certainly understand why that would help, and I'll mention that, to him, we'd have to move all the plants out of the way on the sides to do that. That will be a chore. LOLMaybe I can convince him to do that. Or even section that back half off, since that part is freezing. and just freeze the font half, I have alot more room now that I've moved all the brugs to the garage. I can move the plants forward if need be.

We put in a carosine heater and that electric one, which your right the elec. one didn't help but the carosine did . it stayed 40 in the greenhouse last night, and l3 out side. but this morn at 6:30 it was 32 in the back part of the greenhouse, I went out at 4:30 and put more wood in, and dh went out at 6:30 and said I didn't pack the stove right, which made the temp go down. I'm having trouble packing the stove, since the wood is heavier than what i'm suppose to lift. But I basically just went out to check it, and it had coals but no wood, and we packed it full last night at 9:30 p.m. so that' snot too back, cause we had the little vent in the front of the stove open all the way.

Thanks so much you two, I was hoping some one with some expertise would come along and help with the wood stove . We'll make sure we make the adjustments this weekend and close up those gaps in the top of the greenhouse too. And keep my fingers crossed about the inside plastic going up. I have some tyvek up on the outside of part of the greenhouse for shade on some plants for a month ago. it has helped keep the frost down in that area I've noticed. but it would cut out alot of sunlight, So I don't really want to put it all over the place. I really think the plastic on the inside of the walls would be the best help, the studs are 4 in that would be a big space between the two pieces of plastic.

it's just wed. and tonight it's 26 about 22 for us, and 30's the rest of the week, so it won't be as bad, when it's 30 or 32 out the stove alone keeps it 45 to 50 degrees in the greenhouse, we jsut have major trouble when it gets into the teens.

kathy

I am so sorry for you! I think that insulation would help a great deal. You can purchace large rolls of bubble wrap at Home Depot and start putting that on your interior walls for insulation. Also sounds like you need to plug any spaces where heat is escaping.
I have lost 2 greenhouses full of plants to frost in my years of growing. I know how much it hurts!
The first year I had my sunroom, which only attaches to the house at the door, I had a really hard time heating it with electric heat. It sould never warm up to a comfortable temp unless the sun was out. I started using propane heat and the difference was remarkabe. I now have a gas heater, which I never turn past low heat as on high, it will run you out of there!
If, God forbid, you loose your plants, let me know and I will be happy to share with you in the spring. As I said, I know how devistating it can be to see all those frosted plants! Go forth and plug all those holes!!!!
Mel

Not sure if this would help or not, but I rent my 500 sq. foot basement out to someone as a a studio apartment. The heat in my house doesn't keep it warm enough down there...about 55-60F in the winter time. Within the past couple of weeks I bought an oil heater for my tenant that works on a timer. Surprisingly, it heats up the whole space about 15-20 degrees when it is on. It's not "instant heat" but after it's been running a few hours it definitely keeps it nice and toasty, and is very fire safe too for about $60...might be something to look into :-)

Yes, i'm going today to get a refund on the electric heater and get an oil heated heater instead, and if I can't find one with a fan on it, i'lm going to buy a small fan to help circulate the heat.

the greenhouse I have is l6 x 32 for got to answer that question.

Also, I just talked to my dh, he 's been working so much since I got home from the hospital, trying to catch up 7 days a week, he's in construction. I have to talk to him on the cell phone LOL, don't see him enough at home.

I told him everything michael and horshoe said, which he already knew about the stove. he had been contemplating putting the upright pipe inside and sticking it out the tin on the top, but decided against that, and will now remove the table and just put it on the floor with more pipe leading up to the hole in the side of the gh. and put the damper in too. he's going to stuff the wholes or cracks, and friday the kids and I will move everything from one side to the other, and sat we'll start lining the inside of the greenhouse with plastic, as we have enough left over from the outside to do the inside too. But we won't be doing the roof, just the sides. There aren't any cracks in the top of the roof, just by the back door and the tin that's up front by the stove. So, maybe we'll be ready for this the next time it happens.

what do you think the double lined walls will do for the greenhouse in the summer time? When it's 90 degrees outside. will we need to take that down, hope not.

As for loosing any plants. I've had very minimal damage I think, The bananas are going to loose their leaves I'm pretty sure, but nothing else. I've had a few other things with frost bite, but it didn't seem to get the whole plants, just the leaves. So I consider my self real lucky, and I think we've learned a lesson too . We'll be ready for winter next winter for sure. and we probably won't have a bad one at all. I hear this year is going to be really bad though. I'm so mad at myself for not suggesting that we do inside plastic when we were doing the outside, it would have been so much easier to do it then instead of now. Live and learn.

Michael and horshoe, you gave my dh the little push he needed to go ahead and do this stuff, he knew what the greenhouse needed, but he's so pressed for time, but he did say he's going to take care of it all this weekend. so The worst night was last night, and we shouldn't have to worry any more. Thank god.

Most of the time, we're planting things outside in february, with only a couple light frosts to watch out for, but this year, I think we're going to have to be careful al l the way till march for some reason or another the weather is really bad this year so far.

well, guess the question is what kinda BTUs does your house require?
Area X (Max-Min Temp) X Rvalue (insulation)
so lets say one of my greenhouses:
4,800sq ft of surface area exposed (not floor space) X 20(40degrees inside, 20degrees outside) X 1.15 (value for single layer 6mil poly) =
110,400 btu's, to keep my greenhouse 40 degrees on a 20degree night....
now mind you double layer poly has a value of .7 so if the house was double covered it would only be:
67,200 btu's
now you said it got 16 degrees that night.... to keep my greenhouse 40 degrees on such a night would require 133k btu's or so.... This is ambitious at best for a wood stove. Factories may say the stove produces 250k btu's but this is with perfect wood in a perfect world...

those endwalls are single layered, do your self a favor and put plastic on the inside 2x4's. That air gap and two layers makes a huge difference, if possible do the whole thing double or triple layered.

Dp

deeproots, you know you lost me there don't you LOL, didn't understand a word of it. sorry.

But dh told me today that he would put plastic up on the inside of the greenhouse, so we'd have a 4 in gap between the two layers of plastic, kids and I moved everything and I mean everything from one side today to the other. Looks kind of strange LOL

kathy

*cough*
errrr yah, I do that alot.

anyway, what I'm saying is that you could feasibly be loosing heat faster than you can gain it on a 16degree night.
I'd just make sure that isn't the case

Hello kathy I don't know a thing about, but we had an early 28degree night and I lost many of my cactus So I just want to say sorry for your lost and I admired all those plants you keep I only grow cactus and succulents.
I learned a lot from every one I'll be ready in case winter became colder thaks sylvia

ARRG, I just posted a note and a picture, and it didn't go through, How the heck am I suppose to remember all that post to type it up again.

The stove and the kerosine heater kept up with the greenhouse last night, it got to 20 outside, and 45 inside. no frost on the plastic. So I guess we know, that we have problems when it's in the teens.

See the one side of the greenhouse, we've been busy, moving it all over, to put up plastic on the inside of the gh, we have 6 in studs there not 4, which is better, I forgot about that. and dh is thinking seriously about blocking off the ceiling with plastic, so the heat won't rise so far. It's not suppose to get above freezing here sunday, so we have to do all this saturday, and hopefully drop the stove to the ground and run the stove pipe inside all the way to the top of the gh, but not the ceiling, kind of like picture 2 but moving the pipe over towards the gh front door some, staying in the tin area of course. and raising the part where it sticks out the side, all the way to the top as far as we can go, so alot of the pipe is inside the greenhouse, and put the damper in the pipe as well.

I've got some damage to some succulents and my adeniums I don't htink the adenium damage will be permanent, but thinking the succulents are shot, they were babies I was rooting for this spring, the mother plants are still ok though. All the bananas have brown leaves, but the trunks are ok.

That tyvek on the side is covering up 3 windows and the tyvek on the outside there, was for shade over a month ago, I had all my brugs on that shelf and the sun was buring them. tyvek worked great to provide shade for them.

Ok, wish us luck this weekend.

thanks for all the help too.

kathy

another view, must have been moving, not a good picture.

Huuuuummmmmmmmm. Looks like you just put up peices of plastic on the walls. I don't think this will help much. You need to get a large roll of plastic, preferably UV protective. You need to cover the entire inside, walls and ceiling, sealing off all cracks or your heat will escape. We did this as the Gh was built. We put small peices of cardboard and heavy strapping tape under each of the staples to keep it from ripping out. You must pull the plastic very taught because it will stretch in the heat of the summer. Then we put tape over all the seams to make it air tight. We also taped Bubble wrap over the glass windows and doors for the really cold times, then take it off in the summer. All this is work, but if you don't seal it properly, you are not getting the full potential of your lovely GH.

No No no, we didn't do that, we have very expensive greenhouse plastic rolled out and put down as one piece on the outside of the walls what your seeing pieces of, is the tyvek we used to cover up the windows. Now we're about to put plastic one sheet as much as possible, on the inside of the walls. You mistook the pictures .

If you'll go back and read some of the other posts you'll see we're going to be covering the inside of the walls this weekend and sealing off all gaps too. But we didn't put up pieces of plastic, we laid out sheets the whole length of the greenhouse and the whole length and width of the ceiling and draped it over the ceiling, no piecing done on the plastic. you just see pieces of tyvek we used to help sealoff the wind from the windows.

Kathy_ann, I'm so sorry for you ((((((hug))))) Hope this weekends work will help, and yes, heat rises, that's why your upper Brugs didn't fare as bad as the ones below. With your many DG friends, I'm sure they will help you replenish your loss! Bless you, Annie
sylhuynh, Even here in sunny California, We're in the East Bay, when Winter aproaches, I bring most of of my Succulents and Cactus right up against my lower windows, and glass doors, and a lot come into the house! I did loose some years ago in Southern Ca, when we lived in CarbonCanyon, that hurt so much, I have a large collection of Succulents and Cactus, so far so good, so if I have some you want just E-mail me!!