Lexy got the pic Ada sent her, and EMAILED ME! What a wonderful thing to get after a hard days work.
She must be doing at least a little better!
Double Yellow Seedling Named Lexy!
A beautiful brug Paul named after the sweetest gal I know. Everyone getting to trial this one out for you are lucky people.
Thanks Delisa!
I was just wondering if Calalily was sent a picture of this Phil. I know that she is very busy with work and does not get to visit here as often as she use to. Also, have you sent her a courtesy cutting so she can evaluate it in her area.
Hello BrugNanny!
I am not quite sure why you are asking these questions.
I purchased the seeds on Ebay. I did not know I had to even give credit to the seller. I posted here, because I knew Susie was a member.
With registering it it is certainly helpful to know the parentage. Susie kindly got back to me with that. So yes, she knows Lexy exists.
All my best!
Paul
Paul, I think that most brug growers extend the courtesy to the hybridizer. It may not be written in stone anyplace that it HAS to be done, but it is a courtesy. It doesn't even mean that the hybridizer would accept a cutting. As far as giving credit....yes, anytime you get seeds from someone who hybridized them, they should be given credit as the hybridizer. I don't think it would be right not to. This is just my opinion, but I believe it to be the right one. I really believe that most of the people that frequent this forum understand that it is the right thing to do to notify the hybridizer of the outcome of any of their seedlings. Only on a rare ocassion does the hybridizer want the right to name and or to have a cutting. Again, this is just my opinion.
I know that there's long lists of 'guidelines' on handling seeds and cuttings. I thought the difference in treatment was whether the seeds were distributed by the hybridizer to people who were interested in growing them out vs. seeds that were purchased. I have some 'Calla' seeds and they were purchased, but to me they will always be 'Calla' seedlings (so far none of them have bloomed).
Shirley...I had wondered myself if there is a difference in protocol between whether a seed is given by the hybridizer for growing out by another person verses if a seed is sold.
I would think if it were sold, the hybridizer would be giving up their rights to the plant it produces. Just my thoughts!
Okay, let's look at it that way. Who is going to get credit for the beautiful pure red seedling out of a $3 package of seeds if the buyer doesn't give it (credit) to the hybridizer? Would it be right for the buyer to take the credit? What I'm saying is that the hybridizer should get credit for what he or she did to create a beautiful plant. I think that is only right.
I'm sure not all would agree but I think there's a big difference if you buy seeds from someone you know.... vs. purchasing a pack of Brugmansia x candida from the T&M seed catalog. IMHO, whether it written in stone or not... a little common courtesy will go a long way for all. I know if I chose to sell a few seeds, give them away, or share them with one of the seed banks I would be mighty discouraged not to get any credit or feedback about they babies they produced. In fact, I would prolly think twice about sharing seeds at all ... with anyone. I would only grow the few seeds I could handle and throw the rest in the trash can. When sharing (or selling), I think we know there is a risk we will never hear from the seedling parents again.... but it's very nice and makes it all worth the effort when we do.
I have been given seeds to grow and I have purchased seeds from Cala's and others. I would not treat them differently. If I was lucky enough to grow something special from seeds I had purchased, the hybridizer would get the credit, and a cutting. If it was really a special one ... I would also request help in a name. But that is me ... I could only take credit in growing it out. I agree with Shirley ... I think it is only right!!
I'm on the side of hybridizer credit. The brug world is very small still. It's common courtesy (and common sense) to give credit where credit is due. You do unto others as you'd have them do to you.
Now, this is only effective if you know who the hybridizer is. If it came from an anonymous big company the hybridizer would be unknown. But if bought from a seller dealing in his/her own seeds it's a simple thing to contact them. JMHO
I certainly don't know why there is such a big deal about this.
When you purchase a car, are you supposed to get in touch with the person who designed it?
Am I supposed to get in touch with Martha Sterwart when I look good in a pair of Jeans I buy at KMART?
I did write Cala and told her about the seedling, that is the only way I knew the parentage. She has not written back to me, so obviiously it is not important to her.
Why is it such a big deal to everyone else? I gave Cala credit for hybridizing it. That was more than I needed to do. I bought the seed, to me that means she did not want them, they are mine!
Everyone - Please find something more importamt to talk about!
I dd ackknowledge her! Many times
Okay, here comes the elephant in the glass store and the noise is probably going to scare anyone LOL
In so far as Susie sold her seeds from Calas Tropicals I did not find any wordings that indicate, that the buyer of the seeds don't hold property of these items sold. Here is a quote:
"my own crosses. They are dried then packed. You will receive more seeds than you are charged for. Here is a link to my information site for growing brugmansias. Click here to go to Brugmansia 101!
The pictures with each seed listing are of the pod parent unless noted as otherwise in the product description. Most brugmansias do not come true from seed. Arborea and sanguinea are exceptions to this. Crosses made using two pinks or yellow to gold/orange tend to produce more colored offspring though there is a chance of white offspring in all crosses."
Furthermore, Paul states already in his first post:
"I want to thank calla for offering the seeds for sale. Here is a pic of her baby!
I have named her LEXY
I hope you all like her!"
Calla is mentioned and that Lexy is her baby ... what more could you want ... ? It always amazes me, when I realizes how easy it is for a self-imposed (only apparently) majority to force an individual up in a corner and shame him out in order to convert him to share their consensus. I used to be proud of you. Ask Lene. Ask anyone. I still am, if that mean something to you, but let Paul be. He did you no wrong.
..................................
Personal, it don't see much of a difference, if the seeds are bought from a seedsman company or from a friend or alley on a Brugmansia forum.
If you think of it the customers way, he or she risk in the end, that the hybridizer insist, that the customer should throw away or at least keep to him- or herself a plant, that he or she spend 1-3 years on, before even seeing it in bloom. That is not a sale, but "seeds for rent with an uncertain outcome".
Sale is, when one person gives another person money and in return recieve property over the item, that is sold.
Personally I agree, that the buyer never can be assigned as the plants hybridizer, but if money was exchanged for seeds, the buyer has the same rights as everyone, that buys a house or a lawn-mover. Sales is still under the common laws reg. sales and if that is not the case I intend to take this as a group here is viewing themselves as a kind of State in the State and has started to write their own laws. Might that be the case?
Imagine it from this perspective. You just bought your favorite puppy or favorite kitten, that you have dreamt of in a very long time. You have formed strong emotional bonds to that little critter. What exactly would your reaction be, if the seller now suddenly and without any warnings insisted to have unlimited access to that pup or kitten ... what if he started to tell you, what you should call it or not ... and if you even was allowed to keep it?
In appliance with the ABADS guidelines I think that it is perfectly okay for the hybridizer to be in 100% total control of his or her seeds, IF, but only if the hybridizer make that 100% clear to the seedling parent, before giving the seeds out. Is it not also okay, if the seeds, which are sold warn about that the seller never intend to give up property rights over the sold items? Yes, perfectly all right ... AS LONG AS the conditions of the sale ... the customers awareness is deliberatedly lead to the fact, that he might not hold any property over the seeds, that he legally exchanges for money ... in my book that would still be a sale, because the customer know exactly, what the money are spend on.
.....................................
Paul, Lexy is a beauty and I bet, that have looked forward to see her bloom ever since you found Susies website and later sowed the seeds.
Thank You Tonny!
Why can't we all be friends?
Paul, we can all get along. This was a discussion about a couple of things. If we don't discuss, how do we know what to do, where we stand, etc. I saw nothing wrong with the questions asked. No questions, no answers. I have no problem with anything except giving a hybridizer the credit due them. They deserve that much. Now, let's let this thread go on its way.
Shirley,
I Gave the hybridizer credit on my first post. You seemed to want more.
Goodnite!
Paul, you seem to be on one track. I know you gave credit to Susie. No problem here. Our conversation was about hybridizers rights. It is something I believe in. It has nothing to do with you. I don't understand where you think this became anything more than just a general discussion. It isn't about you, it is about hybridizers rights. Just casual conversation between friends here.
Shirley,
Yes I am on one track.
I Bought a seed, I grew a seed, I raised a seed. It bloomed. I named It Lexy. I acknowledged the hybridizer. She knows about it.
This is the end of my posts about this
Sorry, Shirley, but your (and several others) implecation was that Paul was wrong on some account. And I was apparently not the only one to pick up on that (see Tonny's post).
If it was just a simple conversation among friends, so be it. Let's move on.
Paul, she's a beauty and you and Susie should both be proud.
I'm through with this myself. Good night guys!
Shoot, I forgot to say "It's been fun." LOL!
This message was edited Nov 15, 2004 9:51 PM
Well, all I can say is thank God Tonny came in to set everyone straight. What did we ever do without you all those months, Tonny?
Kelley, Shirley et al. I am gratefull to you, because if it weren't for you I would not be a member of this community today. There is a lot of mention of the word courtesy. Paul showed his courtesy already in his first post, where he said, that Lexy was Susies baby. Why bring up this entire discussion in this thread. Wold you have done that in for instance Monika's threads. Is that courtesy?
Let me appoint everyones attention to ABADS guidelines # 9:
http://www.americanbrugmansia-daturasociety.org/Brugmansia%20Guidelines.htm
Tonny...you are right and thank-you for pointing it out to me/us.
The questions were good, but they should have taken place in a separate thread. They are things I had wondered about, but my wonderings had nothing to do with Paul.
A separate thread with my questions would have been the courteous thing to do.
I for one, ask Pauls forgiveness if he in any way saw this as questioning him or his actions.
Mine, for one were not meant that way and I am sorry if they looked that way.
Sorry Paul, please forgive me.
Margie
And now cuttings of this seedling are for sale on ebay...
That was quick!
kathy_Ann brought attention to it on another thread:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20529&item=4342716475&rd=1
It's kinda sad though, but not a good thing huh?
Well, Julie...I guess it depends on how you think. I've learned that you shouldn't officially name or register a brug before its been properly trialed. Brug seedlings should be grown for at least two blooming/growing seasons in various parts of the country to see if they're consistant in their traits. Then the hybridizer and/or seedling parent can confer with all the growers and decide if the seedling is truly unique and worthy of being named and released. JMHO...
I must agree with you Gretchen.
Quote from a FRIEND
,,,,,,,From a registrar standpoint, there would be specific guidelines that would be followed in order to name and register a new brug. But in the case of "Lexy", you had a really neat new double - - - plus there was a sence of urgency in naming it quickly for Lexy girl. If you had waited, she might not etc, etc, etc. I would hope that the "serious" folks would realize that.
I do not feel bad about naming her, or selling. Lexy has her own plant now, and that was all that I needed to accomplish.
Now I need to raise money to find a new place to live.
If you all would like contribute to this cause, I will pull the auction. If not, I don't see the need to be talked about, or bad mouthed by people that do not know me. No one here knows me or my intentions or my heart.
Have a nice day!
Phil
Is there something wrong with Lexy????? I'm speaking of Lexy the sweet lady we all know and love??
I thought you all had all the answers?
I'll be praying for you pphil to find a new place to live. Merry Christmas Phil ;o)
Kell mentioned in one of the MM giveaway threads that it would be nice if all the people that were posting also posted in the regular brug forum.
I think this is WHY very few people post.
SO very sad.
I see it was grown in the north and the south from the ebay listing.... Were any of the flowers deformed at all in either N or S? How long did the flower hold up? When did she start browning? Were they mostly triples or doubles? How easy did she come out of the calyx? I know sometimes the bigger blooms have a harder time.
I think the naming of the brug was fine, its a lovely gesture. I have names for some of mine that I will keep and evaluate more, but I (personally) would feel bad if I sold or sent out a brug that I released and it just wasnt what people wanted or expected.
I personally dont think that "very few people post". I have ALWAYS seen it (Brugmansias and Friends) on the top of the DG news letter.
I think most who grow brugs try to follow what we have been taught. I really think there are a couple different thoughts on how to go about sharing, growing, evaluating, etc.. Im really not sure how the 2 different ideas came about. When I joined BGI, I was told "ALWAYS give the hybridizer credit, and always offer a cutting (if they take it, its got great potential what an honor to have THE hybridizer grow a piece of what they created and you raised) even if you buy the seeds its a courtesy thing" Then when I joined ABADS I read more upon evaluating and coutesy, and the same things were said. Again I say Im confused about how there are so many different thoughts, as both sides got started right here at Daves.