This is probably basic knowledge for many of you - I'm still learning here! Answer if you want to - I will NOT feel offended if I don't get many responses.
I am trying to figure out where brugmansia hybrids inherit flower form and color. I get the impression that most of the brugs available in the U.S. until recently have been suaveolens/insignis hybrids from a fairly limited gene pool. This means we have missed out on the dark pinks and nifty tendrils available in Europe.
I am guessing that the long, recurved tendrils are inherited from B. aurea? Where do the darker pinks/reds come from? I know B. sanguinea and B. vulcanicola are red but I thought they did not cross readily with the others?
What about foliage? Most of my brugs have smooth-edged leaves, but Sunray and the one I suspect is Dr. Seuss have serrated foliage. Is that trait inherited from a particular species? I am guessing, based on the descriptions I read at ABADS, that serrated leaves may indicate some B. arborea or B. aurea ancestry?
Newbie questions about brug characteristics
Oooh great questions Tom! I will be here waiting right along with you to see the answers.
I have GOT to find my Monika book!
LOL Shelly. I agree, we need Monika! I could answer but I do not want to appear as a know it all! LOL
Kell, dont be afraid to be a know it all if you actually do know most of it :)
we all want info and I for one dont care who give it :)
charlotte
woo~~ great question i will be here waiting to here about this too.
Oh thanks Charlotteda. But on this I may not be too bright. I would not want to mislead you all. This year is the year I am finally able to figure out characteristics of the different brugmansia. I am learning all this also. Monika can tell at a glance.
Tom, here ya go........pull up a chair. I started hybridizing brugs in the early 80's.The reason I started was because only 3 or 4 kinds were available. In the begining there were white suaveolens and white aureas and a few salmon/peach colored versicolors.Aureas tend to throw the toothed edge leaves.A few candidas do too.Seems to me to be an aurea trait.As for a true red brugmansia..it only exists so far in the sanquineas.They cross only with arboreas and vulcanicolas.The really pretty deep pink or near red clones are actually pink forms..not true red.This trait was the result of the introduction to Europe of the wildform of Aurea Rothkirch.It is a deep pink/rose color and carries it's traits well.Europe had many cultivars that we lacked for years,they were collected species from south America.Since the only collectors seemed to be in Europe they got the varied genes necessary to move ahead of the USA in hybrids.I did what I could with what I had at the time.........but very limited genes.Tommie Lockwood in the 70's was collecting and hybridizing brugmansias.He made several trips to Columbia and Ecuador to collect new colors and forms.He re-classified the genus and did many hybrids.Alas he died in a car wreak in Mexico on a field trip.After his death his whole collection was destroyed because no one was there (university of Ill Urbana)to finish his work.One plant was resqued by a friend of his Timothy Plowman.Timothy Plowman and Richard Schultes did much work on the genus brugmansia as well as other solanaeceae species.All three men have died.Along with them many questions we had on these plants.So there is reasons Europe excelled in new hybrids.We will catch up someday.So keep crossing plants and we will see what happens.
:-) kyle
This is great information! Kyle, can I copy this for my file?
Wow... that's so interesting. Thanks!
Kyle has explained it very good to you Tom.
Thanks,Eclipse,for the information.
Bonnie
Really, thanks Kyle!
Shelley thats why I posted it...yu go girl! :-)
lol Thanks! Kyle.
So, which plant was rescued?
Thanks Kyle, I've always wondered about the leaves too.
Great info, Kyle.
Thank you so much for your post, Kyle! I found the history lesson to be most informative.
So, the deep pink colors are inherited from aurea Rothkirch which was found by European collectors, probably because they were more interested in brugs than Americans at the time. And, due to the limited number of Americans researching brugs and the misfortune that befell them, the Europeans really had a head start. I always found it intriguing that Germany had so many more spectacular brugs than the US, even though their climate would seem to be quite adverse to growing a tropical plant. Just goes to show you what perseverance and dedication can do!
Are the nifty long tendrils also inherited from B. aurea? I know how to recognize the suaveolens and insignis flower form, and of course the long trumpets of veriscolor, but these newer hybrids are still a mystery to me. It seems we are getting not only color but improved flower form as well.
Aureas have the long tendrils or as I call em..spurs!Suaveolens has short or no spurs.Versicolors have mid sized spurs.
The best genetic material seems to be from Columbia.Many mutations exist there as well as natural sports.A. Rothkirch,ocre,esmeraldas,ecuador pink,ecuador rose, as Monika has recently brought to our attention, as well as others were collected plants taken to Europe and used in their breeding program.Wild genes are the strongest.They carry their traits very well.Suaveolens comes from Eastern Brazil..it likes heat and humidity better than most other types.
Versicolors tend to be fall bloomers for most people because they enjoy warm days and cool nights(Calif. climate)Hot days and hot nights (Florida) keep some species from blooming well till fall or winter.Day length doesn't matter. Temps do. I personally have been breeding for heat tolerence.I want flowers all summer not just early spring and again in the fall.
Vi, the resqued plant was just called Tommie Lockwood clone. I have the last surviving plant that we know of.The source of it was Timothy Plowman (now dead) and was sent to me by a collector/ grower.They ended up losing their plant of it. I still have mine.
Aurea tends to give hybrids the large very felty leaves.True aurea white can have leaves up to 2 feet long and 18 inches wide.Smaller flowers than most though.
Pic is the Lockwood clone
Protect that baby! Thanks for the history!
Wow!! Thats so neat!
Kyle, thanks again! It's really great to have such experts on this forum.
I know what you mean about FL having a hard time getting brugs to bloom in summer. I gave my parents a start of my unnamed pink a couple of years ago. (This plant seems to be a multihybrid of some sort, mostly insignis but w/decent tendrils.) It blooms in well late spring and then sulks thru the summer until blooming again a couple of times in fall. Summer nighttime temps rarely get below 75F in so I'm sure that's why. It's a bummer that suaveolens do the best in heat because IMHO they can have thin flowers without much form. So, all we need is a brug with bright, thick, heavy flowers with great tendrils, that blooms frequently in all weather conditions, is immune to SB and resists insects. Is that too much to ask? ;-)
Eclipse, I always enjoy when you post. I wish you could do it more often.
You have so much brug knowledge. In a few posts on this thread you have capsulized (sp) so much brug background.
Thank you.
Liz, no applause just throw African Krugerrands! LOL Thanks!
No krugerrands here Kyle. Do you take Visa? Paypal?
Seriously Kyle, you have forgotten more than the rest of us will ever know.
If you have a sec can you tell us about how you got started hybridizing?
I'm athinkin we need to charter a trip to columbia???
lol
jen
Have you shared the Lockwood clone Kyle to make sure it lives on?
Kell, not yet I should I guess.I just don't want to share and find it up for sale on Ebay a week later.It would be an insult to the originator.(Tommie) himself.When the time is right it will be spread around. :-)
Liz, when I was in Calif on vacation in 1979 I saw a white brugmansia in a persons yard. Full of flowers and awesome looking. I had grow daturas for years..but had never seen a brug in person before.After the trip I started looking for sources. I found one plant of it at a nursery.So I bought it. After a few years I decided I needed more color than what were available.So I started experimenting with crossing the flowers in the early 80's.I tried crossing several kinds and colors.I experimented with time of day or night to cross them.When (first night) to cross them as far as the bloom being ready to cross etc.Too bad we didn't have more kinds to work with early on.Think where we would be today?? :-)
Fascinating, thank you for the background information. The 'Lockwood' is stunning. Linda
Tom, I have quite an extensive family tree of brugmansia cultivars. If you would like this database please e-mail me and I will forward to you.
Loretta
Thanks Kyle, I had wondered if it was going to be Hetty or EP.
I do adore your KP, it hardly ever stops blooming and always looks elegant.
In other words, still waiting for your LIST, lol!
Eclipse, you are Kyle, huh??? Whatever I LOVE your stuff!!! If I'm not mistaken, and I very well may be, you are just a baby, under 50, huh??? Where in the world did you gain your unbelievable knowledge??? SherryLike
Tom, that is what is one of the things that is so great about Dave's Brug forum, our experts. Especially if you are really serious about growing brugmansia. And thanks to them, we now have a second tier of members who are pretty knowledgeable also. I can't tell you how much they have helped me over the years.
May I recommend Monika's book if you are really interested in growing brugmansia? It is really is fantastic
http://gardenbookworm.com/c/954/
BUT WAIT!! If you buy the book now, she will autograph the book for you, AND you have the chance to ask the author questions right here, and get answers from her usually within 24 hours. If you need immediate answers there is always at least one brugie standing by to answer.
:o) lol but seriously it is really a terrific book!
Shelly, is Monika's book in English or German? I used to know enough German to get by in casual conversation, but most of that knowledge has long since evaporated from disuse. Plus I never knew enough to be able to follow a serious botanical discussion. But if a complete English translation is available I will definitely get it! Monika is the all-time queen of brugs!
There is a booklet (paperback) that comes with the book (hard cover) that translates everything from her book to English.
If I remember correctly, she couldnt find anyone there to publish an English version.
Tom, if you buy it from a book store you do not get the translation. Monika did that especially for us on the forum. Susie sells the book with the translation, I just bought another from her. Maybe Tracey does also. I can't remember.
Oooh thanks for saying that Kell! I forgot!
Sherrylike..I'm 51 and exccedingly handsome....(LOL) I come from many generations of soil tillers. I started growing plants at age 5 with my grandfather........he taught me much. :-)