Docgipe, you are UBER! dude :)
Soil & Fertilizer: Compost Tea
docgipe,
Great explanation!
To my newfound Texas friends. You have a writer published by the University of Texas in whom I trust and have learned from. At this moment I forget his name but he has written several books....all with organic base and principles. No doubt some of the above has been influenced by him as I read and re-read his book...."Dear Plant Doctor" or something real close to that title. He used to be on your radio talk shows and years ago had a great web page.
The name Garrett is coming up out of the dust. That may not be correct. :) If you can identify this writer the folks here might enjoy his writing.
Howard Garrett he is till quite active. Here is one of his sites.
http://www.yourhouseandhome.tv/ProgramCategory.asp?id=3
Josephine.
AKA.... The Dirt Doctor... Howard Garret http://www.dirtdoctor.com/ .
Someone ask for a link to the master giant pumpkin growers. Hopefully without chip on shoulder humbly said, "I am one of the most vocal links because I have used these principles and techniques before most of the principals of this day were born".
KISMIF is something I try to live....keep it simple make ot fun. We all at least on this side of the pond seem to work so hard at anything to make it hard or confusing. Combined with wanting everything yesterday we tend to get all tensed up. I have come to realize that the biology we speak of here will get the last bite of me so I sure do wish to speak nicely about them. :)
Docgipe, I am going into the mix sooner than most and I just love that long post which will apply to my return to the great mix and I wish I could have said it so well. My compliments to you.
Carol Eads
Carol, your post and at least one other more than paid the bill for any time this brief discussion may have taken.
For you all there is one statement: coffee is on. We shall break bread and jaw bone a spell if you wish. My little half acre is most interesting. It becomes more interesting only if others are here to enjoy it. I have never had anyone stop by that did not improve the place the minute they stepped aboard.
I just wanted to bump this up. I've been using teas around the vegetable garden.
A little bit more on teas. We tend to blindly follow the leader trying to emulate what ever he or she might indicate is the practice of the day. The use of tea in the garden has no exception. Presently the rage is the use of Soil Soup. The had not the decency to call it what it was....namely earthworm casting aerobic tea. A few huge world records have been grown under management that claims high marks for earth worm casting tea.
In my humble opinion good quality compost tea has a percentage of earthworm casts in it naturally. When you make aerobic compost tea all of the living biology clear up to nematodes will be expanded greatly. If making aerobic tea then I have just one question. Why would you use inferior earthworm cast tea when good compost tea contains all of the above? You could of course add a cup of earthworm casts to the compost base if you wish. This is just food for thought.
I agree with you,docgipe. I've seen the casting tea being sold by it's self and its high. If you make the compost tea yourself you can save a little cash.
I have found that my cost per gallon of finished aerobic tea from my own compost and purchased worm casts figures to be about eight or nine cents a gallon. This does not account for the initial cost of equipment. However I make thirty five to forty gallons a week to spray all over my gardens and yard nearly eliminating all other fertilizer costs. In less than a years time the cost of the system has been paid for with moneys previously spent on organic fertilizer. I still use some from time to time but about two thirds less than before I started using the teas.
New equipment is always showing up on the marketplace. I do not think anyone has yet bettered the Bobolator brewer. You can see and read about the Bobolator on the North Country Organics web site. Inexpensive to build, highy efficient, easy to clean. Average brew will be done at 80 degrees in about 18 hours. You of course can purchase it there too. From all that I have seen no one has come up with a better one as of this day.
docgipe, so you think there no need for additional fertilizer if your making your brew correctly.
I still use some organic fertilizer up to about a third of what I used to use. This is in tune with the use of Endo Mycorrhize in my gardens and patches. Some trees and shrubs need another type of mycorrhize explained on their web sites.
In order for this to make a good and complete package the organic content of the patch being treated should be five percent or better. You must have food for the biology you create and place on or into the patches. A small amount of molasses in the tea brew is only to maintain the biology in the tea brewer.
If you add manures, leaves, trace minerals and a cover crop you will have more than enough food for any amount of tea you give to your patches.
I'd love to turn leaves into my garden right now (ground has been broken for weeks and it is "resting") but I'm not sure the leaves would be broken down enough by planting time. I wonder, should that be the case, if using tea on a regular schedule would help the plants along while the leaves continue to decompose. (And hoping the decomposition doesn't create too much heat nor tie up ALL the food/nitrogen!)
Decisions, decisions!
Shoe
Shoe...........in NC you have to call the shots. I can tell you this...in the Northeast we can turn leaves under in late October and early September where in they will decompose by the following spring.
Remember two or three year old manure can be added in early spring or literally anytime but fresh should be reserved for fall placement. Again I am speaking as a Northeasterner. With fall placement we are talking seven months of time for breakdown to transpire into spring.
You could make your garden per usual and mulch with leaves leading into turning them under next fall. That would be a safe way for sure. You could grind and use some leaves into a small part of your patch for your observation. That way you don't have a big problem with not enough time for breakdown.
Thanks, doc...that's pretty much what I thought, too (using the leaves as mulch and future amendment when they break down).
Fortunately for me I also have a small pile of 3 year old manure and since I tend to use it sparingly it goes a long way!
Normally I'm like you, incorporate fresh amendments (manure, leaves, etc) in the Fall. (Or grow clover or rye/vetch.)
Thanks for your input! I'm grateful
(and now, off to the greenhouse for some seed sowing and repotting, then hopefully cleaning up my tea brewer so I'll be ready to roll!)
Shoe
Glad to hear you are getting ready to rumble. It seems to me you have a pretty good handle on the healthy patch practices. I see nothing but improved soil conditions in your future. You seem to be settled in your considerations and not into any quick knee jerks just because someone promised unrealistic results from some magic in a bottle or bag. We see our pathes get better as we work with our modest changes and improvements over the years.
Well, I've been settled into my "considerations" for 24 years (when I started this farm) and pretty much "all my life, so far" in the years before! Years ago I was the "weirdo organic hippie" that was pretty much pooh-poohed by the locals but over time they came around. Fortunately my younger years of growing up not using 10-10-10 and such but having to rely on our "farm products" for garden amendments tells me my GrandFather either knew what he was doing, read J.R. Rodale, or that we were too poor to buy chemical fertilizers! Most likely all three of those! As for me, I only discovered we were growing "organic" many years later.
I've only been brewing tea for the past 5 years though. Before that I relied on compost "leach" as well as weed leach, both working mighty fine (and I still use) but I can tell a difference in the aerated tea (plus it goes much farther, it seems!)
And now, off to the dirt! Er, uh, soil!
Shoe
Shoe...........this 'ole doc has been at it for more than fifty years. I say I am 98% organic and the other two percent I either do not know about or on rare occasions I might be inclined to lie about if some nit picker gets to bouncing me around.
I still put up with a few fruit trees. Growing just a few I know of no way to not use some spray material that may not be certified organic. Most fruit are a bit more difficult than all the rest of my growing plants including foundation plantings.
Healthy patch is a better term for me. Then if some eagle eye nit picker spots my last resort harsher treetment I am not trapped inside the word organic. I stand ready to learn but doubt that the years are left in a number giving me time to be totally organic. I could of course introduce the chain saw thereby getting down to crops that can be grown truely organic...by me.
I envy your early season that is just begining. I will not see much action for another month at least.
yep, I've been reading your posts since you came onsite last Fall. Good reading.
Ten-four on the fruit trees. I've chosen not to spray anything and it's gotten me some mighty lousy plums (curculio and branch scab) as well as apples so infested even the squirrels won't eat them. (Dang tree monkeys sure get more peaches than I do, though!)
I still have a few apple trees, a couple cherry, and some pear hanging in there but I foresee them going by in a few more years (except for the cherry, it is maintenance-free!).
What I've done is I now only do fruit trees that are no-maintenance or low-maintenance. Those, for me, include Serviceberry, blueberry, fig, and persimmon. We also have wild scuppernong grapes and an abundance of wild blackberry. I hope you can find a space for growing some of those. (I really recommend Sheng persimmon! Huge fruit and bears in only 3 years.)
Shoe
Hey doc, I printed out the info on the bobolator again for DH. I want him to be able to ask you his questions directly at the RU. I'm over my head here with the technical part of it. You tell him, he can build us one.......:) Works for me..
Horseshoe,
How do you make your weed leach? How about the compost leach?
doccat,
where did you print out the information on the bobolator? docgipe, I would love to have more information on it too. You have a wealth of information there.
North Country Organics under compost tea brewers.
Okay, I want to build one too.
Dean W, compost "leach" is what most folks have inappropriately referred to over the past years as "tea". I was guilty of that faux pas myself!
"Leach" is when you simply put compost (or manure, or weeds) in a container, fill with water, and allow the nutrients to leach into the water, then dilute it (if you choose) and use it either as a drench or foliar spray.
"Tea" (nowadays) is usually referring to the same but you aerate the water, thereby encouraging aerobic life (versus anaerobic life when making leach) to grow/multiply in your solution, which in turn offers a wider range of benefits.
The leach system can often times be used immediately or can also be allowed to steep longer, depending on the strength you are looking for as well as what ingredients you are using. For many years I would put a shovel-full of compost (or aged manure) in a five gallon bucket, fill with water, and voila! (Over time that five gallon bucket turned into a 330 gallon tank and boy-howdy, the garden and myself were happy campers!!)
So far I tend to use a five gallon bucket for aerating tea as I can make five gallons go a long way and can easily make another batch within another day or so. I foresee using a 55 gallon drum though, at some point, and with the use of a soaker hose and my air compressor I'll be making enough tea in a single batch to cover quite an area of crops and bedding plants.
As far as weed leach, years ago I realized we tend to keep weeds out of our garden (for the most part) due to them competing with our preferred plants. Their habit of "stealing nutrients" is apparently a no-no! However, we also know that many weeds will pull up nutrients from farther down in the soil than our garden crops ever could. (As a quick aside, many cover crops will do the same; alfalfa immediately comes to mind as its roots will easily grow 12 ft deep and bring up nutrients from far below.)
Having worked with various weeds over the years at some point I picked the 3-5 best (for me) and tend to use those, Lambsquarters, Amaranthus, dock, and oftentimes plaintain and chickweed (early in the year). (Plaintain grows mostly in the surrounding garden area rather than in the garden but it is one of my favorite weeds; its personality is of the giving kind, or so it seems to me!) (And don't start me on plant personalities, some DGers know I'm bona fide "ain't right in the mind" when it comes to certain perspectives! *grin)
I just searched a past post about foliar feeding/tea/leach/weed tea which you may want to check out, if you like: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/613044/
Back outside for a while, Folks. Am burning up daylight in here!
Best,
Shoe
Thanks, Shoe, for the detailed explanation. I guess what I've been doing is the leach. I need to get some fish tank airators to make the tea. I used to make the weed leach myself, just with stinging nettle. Thanks for the link I'll be sure to read it.
You're welcome. And stinging nettle is one of my favorites as well. (Plus it is another edible weed, eh!?)
Best to you and yours,
Shoe
Here's an often overlooked but important physical factor. To avoid internal build up of bad and dangerous materials at all times keep the discharge stones, hoses and piping under pressure when entering your brew tank and again when removing the equipment. Once you dunk stones or hoses or even piping there is hardly any way they can be perfectly cleaned. Anything less than perfectly clean is unacceptable.
The best brew is made at 80 degrees in a large bubble rolling action similar to boiling a pot full of large spuds. The smaller sizzling bubbles are abrasive to the biology in the opinion of most leaders in the field. The air bubbles do best when working their way up through the base materials instead of around a sock or a bag. Clean up is very important so bags and socks are not a good choice unless you start with new or boil and wash used materials every time. The Bobolator avoids all the undesirable situations and sends the bubbles up through the mass of brew base being used. It can be scrubbed down in ten minutes or less. There are no socks or bags. It produces in eighteen hours when all other conditions are right.
No pathegons can exist in the aerobic state. All the folks that have problems either do not in fact make the aerobic product, let it sit to long and return to anaerobic or operate with equipment that is loaded with patheogens from poor or no cleaning as is required after every brew.
Making the aerobic brew is very simple and safe every time following the instuctions for the Bobolator and using suggested materials followed by proper clean up.
The Bobolator can be seen and investigated on the site of North Country Organics. It has been years since I bought mine so you will have to talk to them for pricing. I have never had a single part of my system to need anything but regular cleaning. I use it at least every two weeks. It has paid for itself a hundred times over.
At one point I even produced and resold compost tea at our local farmer's market. Seventy gallons a week was a sell out. We nearly always sold out. I used a small generator to keep the aerobic condition right up to peak levels. I got generator noise complaints. The city wanted entirely to much flat rate for electric service. To avoid the grumbles I folded that activity. It was good pocket money or trade with some of the vendors. I was also a good bit younger than I find myself today. :)
Today I share with three close by neighbors who in different ways help me. I have a pumpkin growing buddy who gets a barrel full three times a year. He does some of my heavy work in exchange. Everyone who uses my tea or a similar brew is pleased in short order with patch improvement. I pretty much use the simple brew suggested on North Country Organics web site.
docgipe, I'll look into the Bobalator. Thanks for the details.
I just wanted to post a couple of links. One is Bob's brewers.
http://www.net-time.com/bobsbrew/
Another is for a homemade brewing system. http://dchall.home.texas.net/organic/teamaker/PDFs/brewer.pdf
Dean...........you have solved a riddle for me. I was informed that the Biti Bobolator was off the market. That is a half truth. Bob's Biti Brewer is if not the Biti Boboloator a splitting image of the Biti Bobolator. Anyone who effectively builds one will if contacting me by regular E receive my coaching for the inclusion of a small very excellent tweaked feature in the basic design. I see that Bob's Brewer has the same exact outside appearance of the Biti Bobolator which I bought five or six years ago. The fine print makes no difference.....I believe he either stole the design or bought the rights to the Biti Bobolator and changed the name.
.....I do not really care what the little secrets are. I believe this is the original Biti Bobolator. It is so much better than any other out there in the small size at least I shall now lead folks to this one. You can still see perhaps see better the next larger size called a Bobolator on North Country Organics web site. More than likely both sites will or would sell the compressor to a crafty builder. I know North Country Organics will!
.....As for the other.....it is using fish tank stones. Other leaders in the industry have said that if the oxygen is there to do the job the small bubbles are abrasive to the extent that the tests prove the issue. Yes the air stone systems increase the bacteria and fungi. Side by side tests will show that larger rolling bubbles throught the tower of the Biti Bobolator now called Bob's Brewer will give significantly better results from less base to the whole biological family from bacteria clear up to neematodes. If the proper amount of oxygen is going through both systems then the abrasive smaller bubbles theory is seemingly correct to my thinking. The well known Dr. Ingham's organization tested the Biti Bobolator and the Bobolator. The test marks were still on the North Country Organics web site.
docgipe,
I'm glad to see the Biti Bobolator is still on the market. It however, is still a little expensive for me. Thats why I wanted your opionion on the homemade version. I also found a website that talked about the size of the bubbles. The site I found escapes me now. The homemade version does recommend using a 60-gallon air bubbler for a 5-gallon bucket... I don't know if it makes that much difference.
docgipe,
I've done a little more research on the web and found the site I had mentioned about the size of the bubbles. "Bubble sizes should be medium to large, not micro-sized."
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach_pgs/c_03a_aerated_tea.html
I also found some other sites (forums) that may spark some discussion on the subject. http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/organic/2002082739009975.html
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/388148/
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/soil/2000052708003930.html
I'm also intrested in the use of recipes. Iv'e read nearly everything being used in (ACCT) Actively Aerated Compost Teas. Here is a short list of item I read- Blood Meal, Corn Meal, Kelp Meal, Worm Castings, and aged compost of course.
Dean
How long after using compost tea can I harvest my veggies for consumption?
There are no harmfull pathegons in aerobic tea. Wash the product as all should be washed or rinsed and you will be good to go immediately. The living biology is now and always has been in your soil. You only add to or ballance out your natural biology when you add aerobic tea from compost or earthworm castings. You of course have all that goes into compost including earthworm and other higher forms of biology pooping in the mix.....all of which makes better compost and better tea.
Thanks, docgipe, I've been brewing some and applying it to my veggies and herbs. Just wanted to make sure I don't make myself sick. LOL!
The Bitti Bobolator is sold by Bob's Brewers. North Country Organics has a picture of the larger model at this site....http://www.norganics.com/BrwrMan.pdf......and lots of quality information.
Bob's Brewers has one exactly my size with compressor and all parts ready to go for $225.00. This Bobolator will make up to fifty gallons in eighteen hours at seventy six degrees. For most of us this is more than enough brewer size. We can innoculate our patches and the rest of our property too.
If you purchase the start up materials.....compost, bacteria and fungi boosters and trace minerals from North Country Organics you can innoculate your own compost and soil with the best quality product. During the use of the start up materials the product will cost you about fifteen to twenty cents a gallon. After that maybe half or less because you will use your own.
I doubt very much if you can build your own for less because the quality compressor is more than half the cost of the package. Count in running about to gather up parts at today's cost this package looks really good to me.
If two gardeners went together I know this would be the way to go for sure.
I highly suggest you bite the bullet and purchase Bob's Bitti Brewer for $225.00 to avoid all the possibilities of not having a good system doing whatever you are doing now and having to go there for the best quality at sometime in the future. This brewer has all the problems worked out and proven. It is designed to last for years and years of use. It is easy to clean. All parts are available at your local hardware store or Lowe's type big box store in the event you should have an accident that breaks something.
Docgipe, I cleaned up your hyperlink to make it active so folks can go directly to the pdf and read about the Bobolater:
http://www.norganics.com/BrwrMan.pdf
As for me I'm still using a bucket, air stones, and an aquarium pump! Sure am looking at the Bobolater though and maybe one day that will be on the farm. (Am also still thinking of using a 55 gallon drum with a soaker hose and air compressor for making big batches, too! I tend to experiment a lot!)
Thanks for all the great info, Doc! Looking forward to more!
Shoe
Docgipe, I made a homemade jobber for now. An I am testing it to see if it makes a difference on patches of grass. I am considering buying the Bitti. It's out of my price range right now though.
This message was edited Mar 5, 2008 8:44 PM