LOL Glory...........a fast, easy and cheap remedy!! Lets hope!
empty seed report
Sounds to me like it is an efficient way, Glory, and besides we never get over 70 % germination on most things anyway....I think this would work great!!
"eyes"
right, but these worms/bugs seem to have gotten to the seed before they were mature?
An ounce of prevention is worth a lb of cure, but if I had some valuable seed that I thought might be contaminated...I think I might try the raid method or some such. Perhaps a very very diluted systemic soak for a few hours? You could always peel the coating off though and try to rinse the worm? off of course as well. I don't peel my seeds generally, but I think it would be worth it with a cross of this nature if it meant that it might reduce the chances of a bug eating the resulting embryo.
We're going out tonight and try to locate more systemic. I have several pods on Pink Beauty that I really want to make it all the way. full of good seeds! just hope that the worms didn't already do their damage. It's hard to find gardening products this time of year, may have to go all over.
as usual i am more confused. i think the raid should work on the seeds, i use raid flying on my brugs from time to time.
my questions:
1. if the weevils are eating the seeds after picked, would then just continue eating them while in the soil, before the seed has a chance to germinate.
2. if they are eating after picked, maybe there is something to add when the seeds are soaked? you sure wouldn't want to wait to pick them.
3. are they being eaten before the seeds ripen? and if so would the raid sprayed with a bag wrapped around the seed pod for a while kill them? or perhaps a longer acting systemic?
Brugman i don't usually peel seeds either, once in a while just to see the bean, but i guess i will from now on.
I am dying to know if they eat them before or after they are picked.
Glory, the raid sounds great especially if the weevils eat the seeds after picked.
I just sliced one of my seeds with a sharp knife. There was a bean in it, but it had two tiny holes thru it. My guess is that the culprit gets in there while the seeds are still in the pods.
Arlene,
I can tell you that in my case the weevils appear to attack those seed pods I pick after they are overly ripe. Ie, seedpods that are allowed to dry on the tree tend to have more of a problem with these weevils from what I can tell. As for weather they are being eaten before they ripen...I have found cylindrical type holes bored into my seedpods before, but I have not caught the critter in action and it is not something that has reacurred for me. I sincerely think a very light dose of systemic soak for the seeds would most likely do the trick. The problem would be that a few seeds might not sprout with the wrong concentration or wrong type of systemic. I expect a few might be deformed as well or slower to germinate. Its an area to experiment with for sure. But one things for sure, if the bug is traveling from seed to seed then a dusting of some sort would at least keep the contaminated seeds from contaminating the lot. Of course keeping seeds in seperate batches might be in order as well. I try to keep seeds from seperate pods seperate for this reason as well as a few other obvious reasons....like what if a moth recrosses a pod I just made? If I have each pod labeled and I grow 5 pods from a cross and only 1 pod has a certain characteristic repeated over and over...well then I might think a moth came behind me. or perhaps a bee.
I borrowed my nieces microscope and looked at one of the seed shells. There is no outside hole.The hole starts under the corky shell which makes me think the worm is getting inside while it is still in the pod and the seed is not fully formed. This would make any spray or powder treatment to the mature seeds useless as the damage is already done on the inside. I'm scratching my head here trying to think of something that would treat the pods as they are developing so the insect can't burrow into the pod.
If a weak systemic were to soak into / rehydrate the seed it might kill the insect before it ate the actual plant embryo though and this might help it to develop into a full fledged seedling/germinate. Just a thought.
so a systemic used on the brugs while the seed pods are growing should help prevent weeveils?
and a dust or squirt of raid could kill the weevils if treated immediately after picking? or immediately after drying? ms brugnanny had a hair over half my seeds with beans in them. i pulled the rest out of the packet yesterday and almost all were empty, so maybe it is after they are picked. the few beans i found looked fat and funny.
sevin dust, now a little of that should work shouldn't it?
I'm not sure what to do about the pods that have already ripened ,but if the little bugger is getting in and starting to eat before the seeds are rippend then my thought is that you should give a good dose of the systemic at the same time as you pollinate,with maybe a booster shot at 2 months?
My thinking is that if the weevils are in the seeds eating away when we pick them, then we should see them. I think they have come and gone before picking and agree with CC's way of thinking. JMHO for what it's worth. :-)
yep, will definitely be on my schedule!!! (now to find another couple of bottles during the winter!!)
Don't think you are gonna see the lil buggers. Those holes in the seed I cut open are only about the diameter of a hair.
How about something natural like ammonia, or bleach??
"eyes"
Sunflowers weevils go thro a series of stages starting with the adult feeding on the flower. They eat the pollen and lay their eggs within the flower. When the eggs hatch they bore into the seeds and feed on the embryos of the seeds. I think the same stages apply to the hollyhock weevil. The adults begin by feeding on the foliage. Brug pods take such a long time to develop. It's hard to guess when they critter actually starts feeding. It could be at the first stages of pod development and living for several weeks inside the pod as it matures. I think a systemic is probably the way to go too but dusting the seeds after harvest might also be a good idea. Since Cala said her second batch of seeds were all good .... hopefully this critter only has a short season it's active.
I've noticed my sunflowers having empty seeds before, but have not had a problem with hollyhocks yet. Notice I said yet!! I'm sure there will be something to surprise me every year. Last year was the best though. My biggest surprise was that I didn't have to spray my brugs all summer for mites. Wish that would happen again.
Guess I'll have to lay in a good supply of systemic for next season. I agree that this would be the best way of eliminating or at least controling the weevils. That is if the systemic works on them.
yep, I'm willing to pay the price not to have to go through this!! got a good supply yesterday at wally world, I couldn't believe they still had any.
I just hope it works on the weevils. Guess we will just have to try it and see.
Liz asked me to visit this thread...I'm afraid it's going to be difficult for me to assist in an id...seeing some images might help. Does anyone have any? Weevils sounds like a possibility, but there are plenty of other insects that specialize in eating seeds as well, including some wasps, flies, and other beetles.
I think I read above that entrance holes were not observed, which leads me to think it could be a seed-eating chalcid wasp of some sort. They stick their ovipositor through the seed covering and into the developing seed.
Has anyone seen any weevils (or other 'adult' insects) in association with the pods of the infected Brugs? Are there any adult emergence holes associated with seeds? Were larvae found?
Sorry, I'm wish I could be more helpful here.
bugguy i picked some relatively immature seeds, they were corky already though. the insides of some were like a mucousy gel... on some the little tail thing that i think would be the germination root fell off. i picked some beans out of a pod that looked good, couldn't see anything, they didn't break up....this morning they had shrunk and are the color of egg yolks. i have bad eyes and no microscope. my impression is that the inside bean which is the real seed is somehow being turned to mush. don't know if the critter than eats the mush or if the mush is a by product.
in the more mature pods mostly the little beans were gone. this is probably of no help! if you have time, maybe you could email me your addy and i could mail you an immature pod.
Bugguy, There was no hole on the outside of the outer shell. The hole began under the second layer of the corky shell. No sign of an entrance or exit hole. The center of the seed was completely empty.