need grow light advice

DH just brought home a present for me. A four foot long, three tiered grow light stand.
So here's the question open for debate.
What bulbs do you think are the best and/or most economical?

Wow, funny that you asked that question, I have a Q about grow lights also: I have some ordinary floresent light fixtures, they do not have any bulbs in them. Can I use grow lights in them? And according to my Iguana book I must replace his "full-spectrum" floresent bulb every 6 to 8 months because they lose strength. I was thinking about useing them for my plants, I have a 5 or 6 of his old bulbs in a box in the attic, Would they be too strong or too weak?

michele, send them to me and I'll test them for you this winter ;) LOL
From what I've read somewhere, they would do great.

I have 4ft. wide spectrum plant and aquarium bulbs over my seedlings and they are growing great.This is the third year of using them and I don't see any weakness in their strength.

I have used ordinary florescent bulbs for all of my potted plants and they are just great. I haven't tried them for seedlings that get no other light however. I used to use a combination of florescent and regular light bulbs to get the right light for plant height growth and that worked well also.

Hi Gwydion --
I have been growing under lights for 20+ years and currently use this combination of flourescent bulbs. For each 2-bulb fixture I use 1 cool white deluxe and 1 Sylvania light stick. The cool white deluxe is a bit more expensive but it puts out about 1/3 more lumens (light) than the regular cool white. The light stick is only marginally more expensive than Gro-Lux or other "grow" bulbs and the color of the light is much more balanced. The brightness rating is also higher and it has a daylight color. There is no pink or purple glow to them.
I have 24 2-light fixtures which I use in pairs for each 4 feet of shelf. I grow orchids, ferns, many succulents and others under the lights, varying the distance from the lights to the leaves, depending on the intensity they require. Some succulents are only 2" from the bulbs while some ferns are 16" from the bulbs. Remember that you have 1/2 the light intensity at 8" that you have at 4".
Enjoy!!

Patrick

I use plain old shop lights and start hundreds of seedlings every year.I use one warm and one cool in each light.Look on the packages of bulbs and they will tell you which is which.They are enexpensive and I replace them every year.Probably don't have to,but I have other places I can use the bulbs so I do.

I keep the lights only 3 inches or so from the tops of the leaves and turn them off after about a 16 hour day.Plants need a 'night time' to properly complete photosynthesis.

Thanks for that tip Patrick and Mel. I will try that for starting seeds. I don't usually start seeds before planting outside time but think I will give that a try this year.

The man at Home Depot suggested One Grow Light and one full spectrum. I know nothing about bulbs. Would this be the same?
The full spectrum bulb was 9 dollars... that seems pricey for a light doesn't it?

Mel, glad someone brought up the need for darkness. That is when the plants use all the energy they stored during the daylight.

I've been growing under lights for many years. I have tried many combnations of bulbs. I find if you use 1 cool white and 1 warm white 40W bulb the results are no different than using full spectrum or grow lights. You also need to mount the fixtures on some type of chain arrangement so that you can adjust and keep the lights as close to the plants as possible.

I think the key is the time the plants are exposed to the light. When I start my seeds I use a timer and leave the lights on for 18 hours per day. For some of you thinking about leaving the lights are 24 hours a day note that plants need a period of darkness to grow into a healthy plant.

Paul

I'll wholeheartedly second Paul and Mel's advice. In fact, it's what "my" Home Depot guy told me last year - one warm and one cool will give you the "full spectrum" much less expensively than the gro-lights or other specialty lights. All my plants did great under the lights last winter/spring.

In my (still novice) experience, I think the more important success factors are:
1. Placement of the lights (keep them very close to the seedlings so the seedlings don't have to "stretch" to get to the light.) That means close monitoring and adjusting after they start growing.
2. The amount of light vs. darkness is also important, as are regular watering, mild fertilizer solutions, and keeping the seedlings within a good temperature range (not too warm nor too cold.)

And if that seems like too much hassle, then you can always try sowing your seeds in covered flats (with holes) outdoors where Mother Nature will take her natural course of freezing/warming and watering the seeds until spring gives you stocky, sturdy seedlings to transplant :)

I agree with all that to start seedlings, a warm white and a cool white will do admirably and, of course, photoperiod is very important, especially after the true leaves have formed. However, for mature plants the choice of bulb type does make difference. Manufacturer specs indicate differing spectral output among cool whites as well as warm whites. Insofar as flowering plants are concerned, I personally have achieved more and better flowering with a broad spectrum and a cool white as compared to a warm white and a cool white. Veteran african violet and orchid growers who use flourescents have done this for years. I suppose it depends to what level youn expect your plants to perform.
I speak only of my own experience and of others I know.

IMHO

Patrick

I use plain old shop lights too

Question on lights, will it help to put reflective foil around the sides of the light stand to more or less bounce the light back on to the plants. I have seen this in pix of commercial nurseries.

I've heard of the foil trick but never bothered.My walls are light colored and I keep my bulbs close to the tops of the leaves.

My only experience is with seedlings to transplant outdoors,not with mature plants. I start tomatoes,peppers,eggplant..etc along with a few flowers. Most everything is ready to live outside on their own within 10 weeks at the most.I've not tried to maintain anything with artificial light for an extended period of time.

I used standard shop light fixtures for yrs....four foot with standard bulbs. So much research has "said" that the high dollar full-spectrum bulbs are not "necessary" but, as Mel pointed out, this may just have to do with early growth, not sustaining life.
Patrick, sure am glad to see you posting some info from your actual experience. Many thanks! (Keep posting!!)
I do know that, as far as "full spectrum" is concerned, if you're just supplementing lite to normal day lite then you should be just fine Gwydion. Normal daylite offers enuff of the blue spectrum that plants need...the other light "colors" will appear in your bulbs. to answer you original question, I'd try some shop lites with two 40-watt standard bulbs, when the plants "declare" keep them 2 inches above the tops of the leaves and raise the lite (as Patrick suggested use a chain/rope system). If you're growing african violets and such then you may want to try a lite specifically designed for them, they like a cool mellow lite...I think Patrick could go into more detail on this than I could tho.

I have always maintained a white wall near my plants if there is a wall. I think a lot of light is lost if it is not reflected back. Just my opinion as it would seem that it would bounce back rather than be absorbed by a dark fabric or wall. My potted plants spend all winter under ordinary flourescent lights for 24 hours a day. I don't ever turn them off. I have just never bothered and they have done well for over 30 years of doing that. They never grow tall and spindly either. I lived in Alaska for a year and a half and noted that things did well in the summertime with daylight almost around the clock and therefore I just never worried about turning the lights off. It has never made any difference that I can tell. Things do well and bloom all winter. I almost never lose anything. If it is lost it is because I neglected to water it. With way over 300 under there that can happen. LOL

This message was edited Monday, Jan 14th 7:11 AM

Although I haven't checked it out, I have been told by some friends that are aquarium fanatics that aquarium bulbs are full spectrum and much cheaper than bulbs sold as full spectrum in lighting stores.

For me here in Indiana, full spectrum bulbs range in price from $5.88 to $20.00. Aquarium and grow bulbs are in the $5.00 to $14.00 range. Vita-lite bulbs are always around $18 to $20. The Light Stick bulb from Sylvania that I use is just over $6 at a local home imp store. The reason that I use it is because it puts out more lumens (light) than grow or aquarium bulbs. Grow and aquarium bulbs are both good choices, especially when paired with a cool white. And as Horseshoe said, if you're just supplementing natural daylight, standard bulbs (usually cool white) are certainly good enough. I have found that lighting stores, pet shops and other specialty stores usually charge 40% - 60% more than Lowe's, Home Depot, Menard's and other big box stores.
Price is certainly a concern of mine as I replace my bulbs, on a rotating basis, every 8 months. However, because about three-fourths of my plants get no other light than what I provide, the right spectrum and the highest intensity I can get are the most important factors.
There are other more subtle things to consider as well. Even though flourescents don't produce as much heat as incandescents, they still produce some heat. And if you have your plants 1" to 3" below the tubes, it can make a difference. The heat also dries the air considerably which adds to the drying effect. Also the ends of the tubes are warmer than the center.
If you have several shelves arranged vertically, try to use light fixtures that have electronic ballasts. They produce much less heat than metal ballasts. The bottom of a flat of plants located above the metal ballasts of two fixtures below will be noticeably warmer than the one next to it. It's great to consider when you're starting some seeds but if you have 3 or 4 shelves, the top shelf can be 15 degrees warmer than the bottom shelf. Plants like air movement and an oscillating fan will provide this as well as helping to even out the temperature from top to bottom. Mildew becomes much less of a problem too.
There have been some good points made in this thread. It's nice to see growing under lights getting some ink.

Patrick

All good points. Well said Patrick. Sounds like you need as many colors in the light spectrum as you can get in your situation,eh?
Good point about the heat...have you tried letting your plants (the pots they're in) sit in a tray of water? This would cut back on the dryness...was just wondering if it would retain too much heat.

Okay, lets see if I get this right? For my seed starters: In each of my 2 bulb fixtures I can use one of my "full-spectrum" bulbs and then I'll need a "cool light". I'll use the 2 electronic ballast fixtures on the lower shelves and the metal ballast fixture on the top shelf. I should put a timer on the lights. In my single bulb metal ballast fixture I put a "full-spectrum" bulb and use it to supplement natural light for my established house plants, Sound good so far? One more Q: How far from my established house plants do I hang my full-spec bulb? And I'm building my own selves out of that modular, coated-wire, closet stuff, How far apart do I put the selves? To accomidate for lighting and plant growth?

Another question; Is mylar opposed to foil opposed to white paint any better at reflecting the light? Mirrors are not an option.
P.S. I think this is the informative thread I have read in my 6 months here!

Whooo! What great questions! I love the interest!
MichelleN...I believe you've been holding out on us!...those are very intelligent questions well worth asking! (I love it!)
Seems to me if you have a 'full spectrum" lite then you may get by w/out a cool lite...not sure why it would be necessary. (Just a thought tho.) The idea of electronic ballast on the lower shelves/metal on top is great! I'd vote yes (however, let's see what Patrick has to say).
From what limited knowledge I have on this topic I don't think you need to use a full spectrum bulb supplemented with natural lite...perhaps a standard fluorescent would do the trick...daylight offers much of the sprectrum of light raysthat you need.
As for spacing of shelves, I think it will depend on what plants you're are growing and how tall you will let them get. If growing seedlings for setting out then make your shelves high enuff to allow the lites to hang low when the flats have just declared their seedling, and be able to raise the lites higher as they grow.
Gwydion, I honestly don't know the answer to mylar versus foil (and over the yrs have learned to not act like I do!).
However, foil tends to reflect lite (and the angle the foil it at will determine where it is reflected. The color white tends to stop lite and "make it look around" (I know, I know, sounds silly doesn't it?). Anyway, white will trap lite and thereby give what is around it more opportunity to enjoy it but more at a reduced rate than a piece of foil would. Picture looking at a white surface with your eyes as opposed to looking at a shiny aluminum surface where you have to shield your eyes. The "light" may come back much more intensely but doesn't mean it is more beneficial...plants can only use just so much lite (just as they can only absorb so much nutrition) then it becomes wasted. Case in point, if you flood african violets with reflected foil light you will do them harm...if it is a nice soft lite you will make them smile! (sorry for my picture of looking at life, it just slips out once in a while).

More good points! Good questions too!
Horseshoe - as far as setting the plants in a tray of water, I do that now for the humidity lovers, with about 1" of pebbles in the bottom of the tray so the pots don't sit in water. The warmth helps to evaporate the water faster which raises the humidity and, since evaporating water has a cooling effect, it might help lower the temp. That's just a guess - I don't know for sure.
My two cents' worth re Michele is I would use a cool white with the grow bulb for seeds (they generally put out more light). To supplement daylight for houseplants, I agree with Horseshoe on this (and everything else she said). A cool white would be fine. How far between the light and the plants depends entirely on the plant types and how much natural light you're already getting. If you would like to tell me what plants you have, here or email me privately, I'll help all I can. I have a few books that will help me out. All of my shelves are made out of coated wire too, either 16" or 20" wide. With white shelves, white lights, white standards and brackets and white end covers for the light fixtures, it doesn't look too homemade.
Insofar as the Mylar is concerned Gwydion, I've been thinking about using that too. Many hydroponic growers use it and swear by it. The walls behind my shelves are painted very light colors using one of those scrubbable kids' room paints. But I think I will get some Mylar, put it up and get out my light meter to see if there is any difference. I'll probably get the thickest I can find (2mm or 3mm I think) for durability. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
By the way Horseshoe, I like the way you look at life. Keep letting it slip out.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick...(just WHERE have you been hiding anyway!?)
This is a great thread with not only lots of info but lots of interest...sure am appreciating your input!
Oh, by the way...thank you for saying "To supplement daylight for houseplants, I agree with Horseshoe on this (and everything else she said)". It's the part in parenthesis that makes me giggle tho...you really wanna see how bee-yootiful I am? Click here. http://davesgarden.com/journal/viewentry/5612/index.html

Ok, I'm busted too. I thought Horseshoe was of the female persuasion as well.
Sorry H.S.

I couldn't help but giggle, I wondered if Shoe would catch that. !!

Hehehehe! Trust me folks, it seems to happen quite often!!! Does "Horseshoe" really sound feminine? Should I just call myself "Horse"? Or "'Shoe"?
Nawwwww....I like my name, and any mention of it! (Just wanted to tease ya'll!) Keep smiling!

One hint that I forgot to mention. When I install new bulbs I write the date on one end with a Sharpie. I change mine every 2 years (I just use mine for seed starting)the bulbs are still good for the shop or garage.

Paul

LOL@a woman!!! cant stop chuckling she! sawy!! heheeee

My profound apologies Mr. Horseshoe Sir!!!! LMBO with a VERY red face!! Somehow, in some forum somewhere, my feeble brain added 2 and 2 and came up with 17.41. I have used Patrick, as opposed to Pat, for 40+ years just so people wouldn't make the same one I did! I appreciate your sense of humor about this - rising above someone else's foot-in-mouth disease. The only defense I might offer is that I am approaching geezer status and for a couple of years in the 60's I was very much a hippie. Dead brain cells and all that. VERY lame excuses. I really have no defense, your Honor. BTW, why Horseshoe, if you don't mind?
I think it's great to have this much interest and participation in growing under lights. Everybody has made a contribution, either as a good question or a good answer. Paul's last entry is an excellent example. It's one of the many details necessary to do things right.
What, besides seeds, do y'all (I lived in southern Virginia for 10 years) grow under lights?

Good growing guys (incl Horseshoe) and girls (NOT incl Horseshoe).

Patrick

Patrick! Nooo...I didn't want you to feel uncomfortable! I've heard the same thing in past threads and just knew someone would chime and bring this topic up (gender topic). YOu see, "everybody loves to pick on me"!...and I love it!
By the way, nice to meet a fellow hippie (we're still alive just in disguise these days, eh?)
As for my name...these folks around here have been asking me that for a yr now. And I like to keep them in suspense! Heheheeheheee....!
As for growing under lites,...I just recently bought a sodium-halide lite for the greenhouse. Altho I bought it a month ago I still haven't hooked it up. (Too much work going on around here.) My hopes are to use it to supplement our short winter days here and learn to encourage flowering of certain plants "before their time" with the light. (I love hiding my gardenias from the sunlite, then re-introducing them to it, then show up at the market with blooming plants! People love it! And of course it helps me sell them!) (By the way, let it go on record, gardenias are my favorite flower. so far anyway.)
Looking forward to more posts from you Patrick! You should certainly try out some of the other forums as well!
Keep smiling!

Thanks for the thread Gwydion many questions are also answered for me now too,appreciate everyone's input'' Hope more folks chime in here,will be watching' Thanks all,Sis'

Well Horseshoe, We have something in common. Gardenias are also my favorites. I have one old one that has survived for me for over 45 years. It is one of the common ones found in Louisiana. I rooted it from a cutting. I also have a "baby" one that is the florist variety that I rooted only 20 years ago. They survive well under the artificial light in the winter. They are always loaded with blooms each summer when I put the containers in the garden. I am like Ferdinand the bull in the children's story. When I go by the area I always stop and have a "smell". Do you possibly have other varieties that you would be willing to share a cutting from? I used to have a miniature but lost that a couple of years back.

You're welcome Sis. I too am glad I asked. My one question turned into answers for several I hadn't even thought of yet :)
If I fail at growing under lights now I have no excuse. The pressure is on...

Thanks for your suggestions Horseshoe & Patric, But the deal is this, I have full spectrum bulbs in my attic, but I would have to purchase cool bulbs. I'm frugal, and I'm trying to use what I have on hand. As far as my house plants go I have : Ferns, Succulants, Amarylis' and Orcids, and some Tropicals and a few vines. I will be using the shelves that I build to start seeds, I believe I have my spacing worked out for that. I would love to hear how your light tests w/ milar vs. foil goes. Anymore help would be appreciated.

Frugal is good! If you can give me the names of the orchids (phalenopsis, dendrobium, etc) and the succulents (common or botanical), I can be pretty specific about the distance from the lights. I'm buying the Mylar today so I should have some info later this week. The main problem I have had with foil is that if it is too crinkled, it diffuses the light a lot and some of it does not get to the plants. I recall reading a study that said very light colored paint was more effective than foil anyway. When I find the study, I'll post the web address here so all can take a look.

I have been told that there is no appreciable difference in these bulbs, but I have had great success with flourescent bulbs that are made for salt water reef aquariums. I currently have two Triton bulbs in my orchid plant stand, and I have several orchids that have come to spike under the lights with the Triton's in them. (Currently have a Oncidium ornithorynchum spiking) They are quite pricey- about $35 for a four foot bulb-- but if you have the $$$ you might want to give them a try.