>> why the temperatures have not shown a corresponding increase in the last 19 or 100 years.
1.
Lower CO2 levels in the past - until the last decade or two - caused effects too small to separate from the large natural variations that everyone on this thread has agreed do exist. Even in the last few decades, some leveling have occurred in the general, slow rise of temperatures. That's totally expected when you add a small gradual change on top of large, random swings.
2.
The CO2 percentage has only been shooting up steeply since around 1950-1960.
http://www.biomind.de/realCO2/
And if you do the global averages carefully enough to isolate the small trend from the large swings, you DO see gradual warming, first in surface ocean waters, not so much yet in the air temperatures.
(If this gradual warming is the only effect on climate, we might well be able to adapt agriculture to it gradually, at least until it makes the tropics uninhabitable. Eventually we might have to grow breadfruit and yams and bananas in the MidWest instead of corn and soybeans, but if the changes are gradual enough, we won’t starve. Oh, I forgot, most of those tropical crops yield less per acre than the large-seed grains. Still, slowly dropping agricultural productivity seems less likely to provoke wars than sudden changes.)
3.
Lag, or inertia.
Why assume that something as large as global climate, including oceans and sediments and soils, responds in just a few years? CO2 that goes into the air now will stay there for 100 or 100s of years, and it's effects will presumably accumulate.
If some miracle made all new CO2 disappear as soon as it left smokestacks and exhaust pipes, we would still have an "excess" of around 100 PPM CO2 that will last for at least 100 more years.
Are you arguing that, because the current levels have not had a huge effect YET, they never will? We've gone from around 310 PPM to 400 PPM in 50-60 years. Extrapolating and noticing that the curve bends upwards, we'll probably hit 500 ppm by 2060 or so.
At what point will the climate change from "that's not such a big deal" to changes that make El Nino look like a burp in a thunderstorm?
The point is, we DON'T know, and some people are not eager to play Russian Roulette with the whole planet when we don't know whether there are 1, 2, 4 or 6 bullets in the revolver.
Here's another article that repeats some of the same facts or arguments.
http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/why-dont-global-surface-temperature-trends-match-atmospheric-co2-increases/
Climate Change - Continued
Water is a greenhouse gas absorbing earths reflecting IR and it frequently is in the 20,000 to 30,000 ppm range and frequents the 40,000+ range....much higher than the 400 ppm range of CO2. Water vapor with its high concentrations is roughly 1000 times more potent than CO2 in terms of warming. Granted water vapor constantly changes from season to season or day vs night and place on the earth.
Water vapor has also been increasing by thousands of ppms, with no effect, because of human activity which include agriculture and converting many of earths desserts into irrigated oasises where high evapotranspiration takes place.
Why aren't climate scientists proposing solutions to address water vapor production and ways to mitigate it? Why are they so fixed on CO2 when water vapor is a stronger greenhouse gas?
But again even with higher water vapors and higher CO2 concentrations we are still not seeing significant warming.
That shows there is something counteracting or that the theory is flawed.
Im not pulling your leg Willy...they are the gas laws...Boyles law... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laws
As a gas heats up its volume increases and its concentration decreases as the volume increases. As concentration decreases you have less IR interception just as you you would have by decreasing ppms.
Current CO2 concentration is sort of like a toothpick added to blazing logs(water vapor) in a fire. Adding another toothpick isn't going to have the same affect as adding another log.
I don't even think we are even close to a tipping point or catastrophe. Because we do not see significant warming when water vapor is at its highest concentrations.
drobarr--I am sure that people who study climate are completely befuddled by your observations.
It's a bit like those creationists who ask if, since evolutionists claim we are descended from monkeys, then, gosh, why are there still monkeys? And then think they've GOTCHA!
They are befuddled because their theory isnt being proven.
Thats what this comes down to...results.
I think many climate scientists have allowed their politics and fear of dwindling research dollars get the best of them.
Willy,
No one would ever assume that you, Drobarr or Rick are stupid, and there is all the difference in the world between Being Stupid and making a Stupid Remark.
I have read every word you have written and if you had given the only possible explanation as to why the Carbon added to the atmosphere over the last 100 years has not had more effect on the temperature than it has, you would have countered your own arguments about the urgency needed to stop the increase of Carbon.
Rick,
Thank you for a fair and balanced explanation of what has taken place in the past.
P 1. No dispute
P 2, While the reference I recall was about 1 degree in the last 100 years I think we will all agree that prior to 1950 Steel Mills, Coal burning Locomotives, Coal burning power plants without Scrubbers, and the early less efficient Diesel motors were dumping a lot of Carbon in the air, whether it was being accurately measured or not. And the resulting increase in temperature was less than 1 degree a year. At that low annual rate, just another huff and puff of a cool breeze could have reversed the increase.
P 3, While Lag or inertia is a possibility, there is nothing to indicate that it is a probability. Harmless absorption is a possibility but nothing so far has indicated it is a probability, so one conjecture pretty evenly offsets the other conjecture;
In the Summer time we often have an “excess” of Sunshine, which also does damage, but we adapt to it, and move on. So until carbon is proven harmful, why should it cause panic and expensive remedies to be undertaken before it is clear they are necessary?
I have never believed, nor argued, that AGW will never happen. What I believe is that it May become a problem or it May Not become a problem and it is foolish to disrupt our global economy to try to minimize it until we can see solid evidence that it is a problem.
Extrapolation results are greatly influenced by the trend that is taking place during the period you are basing the Extrapolation on. So using the last 19 years as a base indicates we are going to Not have an increase, but that, to me, is just as foolish as believing we are all going to Roast in Kansas before we ever make it to Hell.
Third from last paragraph you state: “At what point will the Climate change…..?
Then you answer: “The Point is, we DON’T KNOW,…….and while you did not say it, it is apparent, We DON’T know even if it will change other than the normal fluctuations.
So we are in absolute agreement that we do not KNOW what is going to happen and we do not KNOW if or WHEN it is going to happen,
You seem to be of the opinion that we should start spending whatever it takes to prevent it whether it actually happens or not..
Willy seems to be of the opinion that we should reduce the use of Fossil fuels which would certainly harm the economy but not as drastically as your preference would.
I am of the opinion that we should do a Cost/Benefit study on it, if and when it develops, and find out what the damage will cost our Society and then figure out how much we can afford to spend to prevent it.
But if the rate of increased temperatures remain what it is now. If the Human Race cannot learn to grow Wheat in the Yukon and Mangoes in Kansas with that much time, I am not sure it is worth saving anyway.
Thanks again for your balanced and honest answer to my question as to the lack of warming during the recent past.
Ernie
Willy,
I do not know how much supervision of others you have done in your working life, but if you spent a lot of time there, as i have, you would be very aware that all classes of people go to great lengths to defend their own mistakes. The Government Climatologists have been wrong more than they have been right over the last fifteen years or so that i have been following their work.
I do not know if they were the ones that came up with the idea of the 6000 year old Earth, but i am sure if that had beenn their idea they would defend it with their dying breaths.
Drobarr,
Your remarks on the effect of Water Vapor having a tremendous effect on the temperatures certainly match what i have seen from so many years spent in the outdoors. An over cast sky traps heat and a clear sky losing it rapidly is very obvious here where i live now, too. Ten miles from the ocean gives us high humidity and over cast skies part of the time, and fifteen miles the other way is Desert foothills, so we often see clear skies with a quick drop in temperatures.
I would not be aware of that if i had spent my life in an airconditioned office or laboratory, so stick to your guns. What you say makes more sense to me than most of what i read here.
Errnie
Ernie,
Thanks! I enjoy reading each of your posts. I enjoy your common sense approach and you sharing the wisdom you have gained from all the experiences you have had.
This website below explains in greater scientific detail the effects of water vapor....not just clouds...but water in the air and its ability to absorb the IR.
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
"Just how much of the 'greehouse effect' is caused by human activity?
It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account-- about 5.53%, if not.
This point is so crucial to the debate over global warming that how water vapor is or isn't factored into an analysis of Earth's greenhouse gases makes the difference between describing a significant human contribution to the greenhouse effect, or a negligible one.
Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (5). Interestingly, many "facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system, carelessly (perhaps, deliberately) overstating human impacts as much as 20-fold.
Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC's, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).
Human activities contribute slightly to greenhouse gas concentrations through farming, manufacturing, power generation, and transportation. However, these emissions are so dwarfed in comparison to emissions from natural sources we can do nothing about, that even the most costly efforts to limit human emissions would have a very small-- perhaps undetectable-- effect on global climate."
John,
Your documenting and bringing water vapor into the equation makes a lot of sense to me.
Most people now living were too young to remember the terrible air quality we had in the Los Angeles Basin during the 1950's, but it was an unbreathable comibnation of Smoke, from home incinerators, burning trash, Industrial Smokestacks, unburnt gas and diesel from poorly tuned cars and trucks, combined with Fog, so the name Smog was given to it.
It was much worse on Humid or Overcast days, becoming almost unbreathable, and made life very difficult. It was clear that the water vapor made it much worse, as it was not as bad on clear days. So i do not understand why the Government Climatologists seem to be ignoring the Water Vapor, but it may be in part because of the environmental factions that dislike Industry and deliberately focus on Fossil Fuels as the sole Culprit.
I assume because of the huge increase in population, that there is more carbon being created and put in the atmosphere now than it was 60 years ago, but the emissions per person are surely just a fraction now of what was being produced back then. But those reductions have come at a tremendous price, all eventually paid for by the consumer/taxpayer.
I would estimate that added environmental costs increase the price of large trucks and heavy equipment by 25 or 30%, all of which is only temporarily financed by the Business owner and then passed on to the consumer. As the enviromental equipment does not increase production, it does not create new wealth, and just diminishes the existing wealth of our country, lowering the standard of living for all of us. And any additional sums spent needlessly will lower the standard of living further.
Ernie
Ernie,
Great insight.
"Environmental factions that dislike industry deliberately focus on fossil fuels as the sole culprit"
I think that statement is correct. The people within our government who provide many of the funds for climate research as well as those doing the research seem to be those who dislike industry.
And when their research results fail to even mention a greenhouse gas up to 1000 times more plentiful and slightly more potent on a molecule by molecule basis this is very alarming.
But it would make no sense to be anti water...because since it is natural it wouldn't really provide anyone to control or tax. And it wouldn't allow government funding to crony friends in alternative energy startups.
John,
We do have a runaway bureaucracy, for sure. I just heard about a very potentially rich Goldmine in Alaska that would create a tremendous amount of new wealth spread among the emmployees, equipment suppliers, investors, and Tax collecting entities, but since it would not directly benefit the Bureaucrats in the EPA, they have tried to defeat it from the beginning, just to prevent some Possible damage to the salmon.
I have a friend who is Water Clean Up expert in a consortium of Civil Engineers, and they have been directing the clean water requirements for gold mines for many years, and he says the water has to be, and is, absolutely harmless before it leaves the property. I do believe that some of these Government Agencies are damaging our Country more than the Carbon and other problems we have.
Ernie
I'm busy the next couple of days, so I won't be posting, but I did want to ask where you got the idea that I think we should buy oil from the Saudis. I am the one who said we should build Keystone. I have also said we should do nothing to impair economic growth, but that we should start a serious effort to stop using fossil fuels over the coming DECADES!
As for Boyle's Law...Here's how I see your argument: The batting cage is contained in mesh with chicken wire hole size. If we go to chain link sized holes, more softballs will escape because the mesh size is larger. Distances between molecules are tiny compared to IR wavelengths...
CO2 is a GHG. The concept of GHG comes from the 19th century--Arrhenius, for one. It is not something dreamt up by climate scientists. CO2 WILL act to raise the temperature. Other factors can have opposite results. Climate models have done, as I see it, a poor job to date of predicting temperature change. It's complex and they have not YET constructed accurate forecasting models. This does not mean that CO2 isn't a GHG. It does not mean that we can add CO@2 willy-nilly and not eventually have an adverse affect on climate.
And Ernie, I know it's petty, but your "sic" was really annoying. Go back over your posts and count the typos.
My suggestion would be to read a couple of books explaining AGW instead of getting your science from the media and random Internet articles. Like I said, every Gotcha! point you've made is old hat to people who do climate studying, similar to those who Gotcha! with their goofy anti-GMO points.
Willy,
Increasing distances between gas molecules is exactly what happens when you reduce ppms of a given gas. You have a lower concentration. So what you are saying is whether there is a lower concentration say 300ppm(chain link) or a higher concentration say 400ppm(chicken wire)of CO2 it makes no difference because all of the IR is absorbed(softballs prevented from escaping).
So using your argument, increasing ppm CO2 will have no effect on trapping more IR since all of it is trapped already.
However, the whole premise of global warming is that as you increase concentration of greenhouse gases(CO2 molecules closer together) more IR is intercepted which results in heating. So if you reduce concentrations of greenhouse gases(CO2 molecules farther apart) less IR intercepted and heating is reduced and the earth cools. Hence the goal to reduce CO2.
Raising the temperature of a gas also increases the distances between gas molecules....which would reduce concentration and reduce IR interception through the same way that reducing CO2 ppm would do.
The fact is that very much of the IR passes through even when there are thousands of ppms and very high levels of greenhouse gases.
You need to address the effects of water vapor and in comparison how miniscule CO2 is.
Willy,
Buying oil from Saudies would be the inevitable result of “turning from fossil fuels” regardless of when, because if that ever became the policy of the USA, there would still be a need for a reduced amount of some Petroleum for heating, and a lot of it for use in plastics and synthetics. But with a policy like that the Environmentalists would seize the opportunity to stop all expansion of drilling activity like they have been trying to do for the last forty years. Without continually exploring and developing our own resources we would be back to depending on purchases from Saudi or other countries.
Your correction of my spelling a few weeks ago annoyed me, too, as I am continually frustrated with an incompatibility between this computer and the DG program. Others have mentioned it being a problem for them, also. I am just a fair typist but a pretty decent speller. The posts I write on Word and paste on the thread do not have the problems I have directly typing in the box of DG. Some of that is from help from the spell checker but so far in this post, I have not made any typos. I just made one, hitting the slash key instead of the period after typo.
Thanks to you and Drobarr, and personal observations having made my living all my life in situations where the weather and its variations were important to me, I have learned enough to know the basics of AGW, I clearly understand that there is a possible danger from it, but have not yet found any evidence of unusual Global Warming.
And before you spend a lot more time extolling the intelligence and dedication of the Climatologists, I suggest you review some of the mistakes, some of the deceptions, and some of the lies those Climatologists have made in the past. A good place to start is to review the claims a few years ago about the Himalayan Glaciers were certain to melt before now. And as it turns out a couple of weeks ago that was an Avalanche, [snow], not a flood [water], that killed all those Sherpas.
You are correct that everything, except the recent posts between you and John concerning molecules, etc. has been repeated many times by both sides. Usually spoken in rebuttal to something that has been repeated many times, too.
I will look forward to more of your posts, and will not mention any more typos, as I really do not want to annoy you.
Ernie
John,
This is a bit off subject, but Government employees do let their personal bias guide them to do dishonest things. When i lived in Idaho, some Fish and Game employees wanted to tie up a lot of country in Washington state to re introduce Lynx. There was not record of Lynx ever having been in that area, but the employees were caught sprinkling Lynx Urine from Canada on some tree stumps so they could "Discover" it and use as proof that there were Lynx in the area that required protection. A lot of country in Idaho has been turned into protected areas for Grizzly bears and Wolves, and that sharply reduces that access to the areas for other purposes.
Ernie
If you find typos in my posts you can be assured that I made the post. You will probably find some bad grammar as well. Sort of my trademark.
I guess that's why I didn't major in English. The good thing about science is most writing is peer reviewed and most typos and grammar is corrected before it is approved and makes it to press.
It doesn't help that I use a Galaxy 4S to make many of these posts.
One other point id like to make is that fossil fuels are limited. We have extracted most of the easy and highest quality fossil fuels. Some estimate that peak fossil fuels will be reached in 2018 and after that time there will be a gradual decline in fossil fuel use. And other sources will have to be utilized which will reduce carbon.
If fossil fuels are limited it makes sense to buy it from others and use theirs and save ours for later.
But it also makes sense for us to become energy independent...at least from a military standpoint.
Hope you aren't watering anything out in that hot dessert Willy...we don't need that extra evaporation increasing water vapor in our atmosphere which could bring about Ricks catastrophes. We each need to do our part to reduce our water vapor footprint. So selfish those gardeners with their large gardens that they water which is destroying our planet by contributing to atmospheric higher water vapor levels and man made global climate change.
Actually to be politically correct man made global warming is incorrect. ..its human made global warming lol you would think climate scientists were more politically correct!
Ernie,
There is more corruption in government than anywhere. Many people that can on a whim make rules and regulations that affect all of us. Many of the agencies are not subject to checks and balances.
I fear government much more than an evil profit hungry corporation any day.
John
John,
Of course fossil fuels are limited, but I do not think we actually know yet where the limit is. There has always been a calculation of when we are going to run out, but that keeps changing.
During the Winter of 1943 and Spring of ’44, when construction work was slow building Military Bases, I spent 6 months as a Roughneck on the Conoco Lease, NW of Bakersfield, CA. The well I was working on was about a mile from what was then the deepest well in the World. That was only 5000 and some feet deep, and now they are 7 or 8 times that deep, and the known reserves keep climbing as the years pass. So who knows how deep they will be able to drill in another 70 years.
I assume techniques and equipment will be developed as needed to keep going deeper or to extract even more from the Shale. It has been known that lots of Shale rock contains oil, as rocks used to catch fire from campfires, but it costs about 40 dollars a barrel to extract, so it is only feasible when Crude sells for over $60 a barrel. As prices increase, more money can be spent extracting from poorer grades of Shale, so it is too early to say with any accuracy when we will run out.
I keep hoping that a new form of propulsion will be discovered, maybe antigravity or magnetic, which would reduce the amount of Fossil fuels, but nothing so far even comes close to the efficiency of fossil fuels, especially internal combustion engines.
On using the DG box for posts, does anyone else have problems with losing their work when they are partly done? That happens all too frequently to suit me. For more than a paragraph or two I am going to use Office Word and paste from now on.
You are sure hitting me with some hard licks on the H20 footprint I am leaving. It takes a lot of water to keep anything green out here.
I agree that the people making the rules come from the wrong background. Most of the Government employees that decide how our economy should operate have never signed a Payroll check for anyone in their life. And when you have to meet a payroll, is when you start to learn how the economy actually works.
Ernie
I believe fossil fuels will be around for centuries for the very reasons you mention Ernie. But energy demand doubles about every 14 years and even with new technologies it is likely fossil fuels wont be extracted at the rates of demand. But as their use declines technology and cost of solar and wind will decrease making their use more widespread. I think nuclear will hold stable. The US military seems to have figured out how to use sea water as fuel( http://defensetech.org/2012/10/02/converting-sea-water-to-navy-jet-fuel/ )hydrogen might take off or maybe cold fusion might one day be a reality.
I have the same troubles as you Ernie from time to time losing everything I have written.
Those Santa Ana winds can cause lots of water to evaporate. Im sure you are watering extra these days to keep everything alive. So when you water you are contributing to global warming and raising the oceans and hurting the polar bears...actually maybe if we raised the price of water...I mean dihydrogen monoxide...we could regulate it and tax it. But we better find a way to reduce water vapor emissions before its too late. I mean we really shouldn't be messing with our planets delicate atmosphere and increasing greenhouse gasses like water vapor. Stop watering!
Not only are the people in government out of touch with reality they are not held accountable for their policies. They do not face elections or shareholders. Many of the regulations have been the equivalent of shooting ourselves in the foot. Some have been good.
They really should be regulating our most dangerous greenhouse gas....water!
About forty years ago, two friends of mine that had quite a bit of money spent a lot of it backing a fellow that thought he could extract the Hydrogen from water and make a motor run on that. Clarence and Tony thought it was such a good deal they kept it to themselves and did not ask anyone else to help them finance it. But finally, maybe after 2 or 3 years they went silent and had given up on it.
I stopped and read the link, and that is interesting, but the comments dated back to 2012. I hope they have made some progress on it.
I am not sure raisig the price of water will do much to curb the pollution. My water bill here for this half acre runs $900.00 for two months, but paying that is cheaper than moving and i sure would not want to live here if every thing died.and turned brown.
Ernie
A quick, and final, weigh-in from me on this topic.
1) Ernie--I sincerely apologize for the spelling dig I made. I do find you to be a voice of reason and common sense, but I do suggest you read a bit more on AGW. It is more complicated than you think and the climate scientists really aren't just a bunch of sore-loser loons. Their predictions to date certainly haven't been spot-on, but the fact remains that CO2 is a green house gas.
2) drobarr--I cry uncle. Your insights into the molecular spacing and water vapor ideas may turn the AGW controversy on its head. I note that Michael Mann, one of the world's most prominent AGW advocates, is just up the road from you at Penn State. Perhaps you could enlighten him on your discoveries. I hope you are gentle with Mr. Mann and don't embarrass him too much.
3) Here's an article on the Navy seawater idea: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/navy-process-to-make-fuel-from-seawater/. This break-through has application for keeping the Navy at sea without a need for a resupply of jet fuel. It is not a new source of energy. There is no free lunch.
Bye--and thanks to you all for the education. I have truly, very truly, learned more than I expected to learn from this thread.
Willy,
No apology was needed as i did not lose any sleep over that.
I think this thread has about burnt itself out now anyway, and with you leaving, it will probably end soon, as you have been a important party to the discussions.
I hope to see your comments on other discussions, as both your own thoughts and the Links you post have been of interest.
Kindest regards,
Ernie
Willy,
Dr. Micheal Mann was one of the people involved in the climategate scandal.
The importance of water vapor as a greenhouse gas is something all the climate scientists already know about which is why it is purposefully excluded. NASA acknowledges water vapor more important than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html#maincontent
Focus isn't even on the 280ppm CO2 from natural systems...all their focus has been on the 120ppms caused by humans over the last 350 years. Really the focus is on the evil and greedy corporations in the United States.
Michael Mann in my opinion is too politically active for me to see his objectivity as a scientist. I think its silly we the public pay his salary so that he can skew data that favor his political philosophies.
I dont deny CO2 is a GHG. But it is a very small fraction of all the greenhouse gases. In comparison to all the greenhouse gases its contribution to warming doesn't justify the focus it receives.
Its been fun Willy!
John
unwatch
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140504133207.htm
Some places are cooling.
John,
Both of the links connected to reasonable articles, and it is too bad the mindblocked true believers cannot see that while there does seem to be some damage, either temporary or permanent from Human activtiies, it is just not an absolute dead certain event that can be accepted as final yet.
Obama is going to start pushing it now, in a desperate move to excite the Eco Nuts so they will vote to keep the Senate Democrat majority, so we will have to wait and see if that speeds the economic disaster up or let it run its course.
Ernie
Thanks for all the hard work debating this, I think I've been better educated by far because of this, Dr and Ernie.
Willie too, if you're still here, I've shared your position many times.
Sally,
While your comments have not been as frequent, they have surely helped focus and move the discussion along, too.
The latest Poll indicates that only 30% of the people believe this is the most important problem we have, and probably even less think we should bankrupt the country and forego using our natural resources in a futile attempt to solve a problem that may solve itself.
Ernie
thanks for your kind words, Ernie
White House adding solar panels, in news today.
My husband added solar panels last year from Harbor Freight, so I understand firsthand what a pain it is to retrofit into a standard house, and what a lot of effort for a very small benefit.
I wonder how much pedaling of a bike I would have to do if I could run my computer strictly from electricity I could generate that way.
Wind Generators for individual use have been around too, since before WW2, and if either those or the Solar panels had been practical, they would be in common use on their own, and not needing subsidies from the Government.
I saw Solyndra mentioned again, today, and that always reminds that We, the taxpayers wasted FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS on a worthless loan to Solyndra to try to develop an improved Solar Panel. If it had been practical, Private Corporations would have taken that risk and not cost Taxpayers a dime. Solyndra is bankrupt and we will not recover any money from the loan as the Government Loan was subordinate to the Investors Capital.
At least you could depend on your bicycle when the Sun doesn't shine and the Wind doesn't blow.
Ernie
While the heavy hitters are partly still around, I would like to hear how dangerous EMPs are to our way of life and environment.compared to man made climate change. Are we barking up the wrong tree mostly.
There are a lot of potential catastrophes out there somewhere besides Global Warming, and EMPs apparently are one of them, but i do not know enough about them to have an opinion, so i look forward to learning about them, too.
Ernie
I found this to be very interesting...I know a few have tried to make the point that people are biased because of their ideology....
http://m.theweek.com/article/index/261237/on-global-warming-conservatives-have-a-blind-spot-mdash-and-liberals-have-tunnel-vision
I think some of the issues revolve around potential solutions...since liberals tend to want to harness corporations with increased regulations this is a perfect way of doing so and promoting their agenda so naturally they want to monopolize and overstate the problem....doom and gloom.
John,
That was an interesting link.
Thanks,
Ernie
Go to this link and click, watch video. for a different perspective.
www.lasthours.org
the first line of the video turned me off when it said that all life on earth will go extinct because of man made climate change...
This message was edited Jun 1, 2014 11:31 PM
So did it turn you off so bad you did not watch it?