Help me plan my plantings for this corner shade garden

And here is my patch of unprotected "alyssum" as of November 11: (But unlike yours mine experiences a good 4 hours of full sun).




This message was edited Nov 13, 2012 12:41 PM

This message was edited Nov 13, 2012 1:11 PM

You two are great!

There must be something about allysum that I don't get. I have gone through at least five packets in sun. They don't like me. Sometimes there ar plants that just don't like you.

And I have fallen in love with columbines. There is a large white one in my yard - only one, mind you, which puzzles me. Just like there was one hardy geranium.

Is it that I don't live right?

These particular Alyssum are (expected to be) annuals in my zone, but I don't know what they'll do next year 'cause this was the first year I grew them. We'll just have to wait and see, but I sure hope they self-sow 'cause they smell so nice! There's really no Elfin magic, but I think it might be ... a few years ago when I first started to expand that bed I noticed the area near the porch needed to be built up and I didn't want to buy soil.. so I mulched up all my leaves and put those and the mown grass there one Fall to build it up... I guess the plants must like that I'm cheap. =) This Fall, once everything there gets cut back, I think I'll use my blower/vac as a vac again, mulch up some more leaves and dump 'em there again right on top of everything, just in that one area, for a little more building-up and a bit more of an amendment since it's still a bit too clay-ee for my liking.

But anyway, for a buck or $2, I think it is worth giving a little Allysum a try in a bit of shade. =) And Rouge, yours still looks Great!!

Fall, shmall, I don't need anymore colour at that time of the year!

Okay, you have swayed me Donna (and by extension I have ignored "weerobin's" experience). After much web browsing the past week I am now at the place where if I were to plant *tomorrow* it would be a "Snowflake" in that back corner!



This message was edited Nov 14, 2012 12:43 PM

Yes! Snowflake!

Did you do what I did? Plan your garden around fall so that you have plenty of color then?

I am sorry to sound like a broken record but given all the shade this area has to contend with I don't think I have the luxury of making plant selections based on season. One of the conditions I am trying to abide by is that plants that I choose should not currently be in other gardens on my property. Given these restrictions I will be happy to get colour from flowers at anytime in the year!

This message was edited Nov 14, 2012 2:37 PM

Okay DG Community, here is another possibility:

Do any of you have experience with the compact Dogwood "Ivory Halo" (Cornus alba ‘Bailhalo’) in a (very) shady location?


This message was edited Nov 15, 2012 9:57 AM

Sorry to say, not me. Never heard of that one. =(
(not helpful, I know, but I didn't wanna leave ya hangin' out here answerless).

Here is some information re this particular DOGWOOD: http://www.jeffriesnurseries.com/ivoryhalo.pdf

I did look it up, and it is a new plant from Monrovia. Because it is so new there is little information about it. It sounds like a play on red twig dogwood with variegation.

Have a look at this. The Missouri Botanical Garden page has a link to reviews of it from their professionals - there are four of them.

http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/your-garden/plant-finder/plant-details/kc/q430/cornus-alba-bailhalo-ivory-halo.aspx

In the middle of the page is a notation: "see comments".

Click on it and you will get the reviews on this plant.

It looks rather negative. The one person who wrote usable comments states that his rarely flowers, gets aphids, and it never gets any fruit.

If I could make a comment. It is rarely good to buy any of the new plants. You end up paying a premium price for things that are not really proven. I get most of my "Proven Winners": plants through Raulston Arboretum after they have been vetted by someone not in the trade. Monrovia comes out with a bunch of great looking plants every year. They end up in expensive catalogs, at high prices, and some of them do not perform. I think I'd steer clear.

Thanks for the link Donna. It doesnt appear to be extra new as seen even on DG here:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/76486/

I'm don't think I'd get it based on the comments. There are six comments: two of them simply identify it, but don't own it, and two of them say it gets rust. Surely there are plants with a better track record.

I agree.

How about a bottlebrush buckeye anchoring the back corner?
Would it be too big for the spot?
Blooms reliably, not fussy, rich yellow fall color ...
Just throwing it out there...

Hi all, I've been following your thread for a while, but didn't have much to add, as I'm still learning more and more about shade gardening. Weerobin, Will the mentioned bottlebrush buckeye tolerate moderate shade? Like under canopy shade of other larger trees? DH and I have cleared out our side yard which is quite shady by large trees in the area, I recently found a couple of the mentioned buckeyes and don't quite know how to place them. Thank you rouge21 for letting me squeeze in on the discussion of the shade garden. Hi Donna. Waving at everyone.
Kim

Really cool suggestion "Weerobin" but you are right ie this 'buckeye' is much too large a plant for this corner.

Good morning Kim! **waves back**. =)

Hey, did I mention maybe a container or 2 of Creeping Jenny strategically placed somewhere? Sometimes a nicely placed container in an otherwise non-container garden area makes a nice focal point, and Creeping Jenny is such a bright pretty green, it livens up any deeply shaded area, but you'd probably want to keep it contained 'cause that stuff really spreads! Maybe you could keep the container(s) for those mood-changing times, when you want a bit of inexpensive change, say, from Spring/Summer Impatiens to Fall Pansies or whatever, and keep the Jenny around the perimeter (with the blooms filling the middle), so it can trail down a bit.

I wonder now.... how an old birdbath would work for a strictly CJ 'bed'? Stab just a couple holes in the bottom for drainage, fill with a container planting mix,.... would it be too shallow for Jenny? What a cool visual that would be, huh? Or maybe a Blue Star Creeper (Isotoma Fluviatilis).... Rouge, does your area tend to get very hot in the summer? If so, then all that shade would work well for it!

OK, sorry, the imagination is just running away with me this morning! < =D

Hi, Kim. Bottlebrush buckeye can take moderate shade. It's perfect for understory situation.
But it can get big - 5-6ft tall in 5-10 yrs - even taller with older plants if they're happy.

No thanks needed Kim. I am glad this is still an active thread.

If I could pipe in - I see lots of bottlebrush buckeyes in full sun and they look very unhappy. It's a heavily promoted plant in the midwest, and when well grown can be wonderful, but I see nothing but really awful, burnt ones. My conservation community had a bunch of them next to a gazebo in direct sun. How they suffered. And I got to watch, because the gazebo was close to my house.

I think that Wee, as usual, is right. It could be neat as an understory tree, if you have room. And his look like the perfect ones that you see in articles, because he has them in the right situation.

Hiya speedybean, a cool suggestion on the creeping jenny for the area. Thanks Wee, Rouge21 and Donna for your comments. The area that we're working on is quite spacous, DH has springler system and sprayer head along the fence but hasn't connected them to the pump. The final work will be done during his Christmas vacation this year. But now I can go ahead and plant my shrubs to give them time to get root establishment over the winter. I'm so glad to learn of the information y'all generously shared. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Second pix is the other side of the fenced in area, which is pretty much like the area that rouge21 has. There last summer we put in soil admendment and planted a few shrubs, but I think I'll add some lilliums?

3rd pix is some type of mahonia I think. I garden for wild life, hope the little critters in the garden will find those fruits nutritious over the winter ahead (but hoping they'll leave my bulbs alone).

I really like Mahonia, have been wondering for a few years now where I might put one or 3. :) You've really got some nice space to work with also, Kim, sweet!!

I see a lot of people doing the same thing with Dogwoods (that y'all have seen done with bottlebrush), stick 'em out in direct blazing hot sun then wonder why they die in a year or so. Poor innocent trees!! Any time anyone comes in to work asking about Dogwoods, my first question to them is always "Please describe the area to me where you want to install it; What sort of sunlight do you get in that area?" 9 times out of 10 it's direct sun; it's amazing how they just don't seem to realize what they do and where they grow in nature.
I remember seeing LOTS of Bottlebrush growing up in So Cal where I was born, and the best looking ones were always stashed away around the underneaths of big ol' Eucalyptus trees. Yeah, it gets hot and dry there, but tuck 'em away and they're ok.

So Rouge and Kim, are you two drawing up your ideas as they are collecting in your heads? I like to do that, it helps to get a good visual.. and I need all the help I can get. ;)

I agree with you, Speedy, about dogwoods favoring understory situation.
I've got all mine in part shade.
But I've got to say I've seen some of the most spectacular flowering displays on dogwoods in full blazing sun.
But the problem is, the rest of the year they look awful. Curled leaves burnt to a crisp.
But for 2 wks in April, they look so good you can almost forgive how ragged they look the rest of the year.
Almost...

Flowering dogwoods are rare here. I have seen ONE. It is in an older neighborhood (actually, it's next door) has been there 30 years and is on a street with lots of mature trees. When I go to garden centers, they are not even sold here. The substitute here is flowering cherries, which do beautifully (especially yoshino) and crabapples (essentially, the dogwood of my area of the Midwest).

speediebean, Mahonia, various kinds stay 'evergreen' in our mild climate. Something that provides 'green' in all seasons is favorable with DH here. As far ...drawing up ideas.... yes, I'm. DH goes a step further, he's collecting grass clippings, and chopped up fallen leaves to create compost for future planting. Wee wrote

With flowering dogwoods or Eastern dogwoods they seem to make it "at home" in shade -- perhaps up North? Down South; if you ever noticed from a 'bird eye view' when take off and landing (air traveling--in early spring), you'll see them naturalized along forest edge/ borders (presumably where they enjoy periphery sunlight? Around my neighborhood, those that stay in full sun provide more colorful leaves in the fall, plus an abundant berries for wildlife. Those that in shade NOT so much. I don't have experience with the twig dogwoods to draw from. Other dogwood species: Several years ago I discovered a naturalized Osier dogwood on the edge of the wood, those are not as showy as Eastern dogwoods, but the "blue muffin" berries is quite attractive to me, and I'm sure wildlife appreciate them too. Another worth mention dogwood is the Kousa dogwood, the first time I saw these big blooms of the Kousa dogwood. It took my breath away! Its flowers are just as prestine white as Eastern dogwoods, but perhaps 1.5 to 2x the size of our Eastern dogwoods! Those I saw were in Maryland, I haven't seen them being used down here in the South, not sure how they will fare here-- now I'm scooting toward sunny planting....rather shade gardening. Please forgive me.

Here is an example of Eastern dogwood that gets more sun compared to those that are in the shade--let me emphasize; I'm speaking for our Southern zone as appose to zone 4 and 5. Those Eastern dogwoods that are in the shade (here) have long dropped their leaves, and berries as well.

Dogwoods are one of my favorite trees here. But when I first planted my Kousa as more of an understory tree, I didn't anticipate that it really stretches for the sun (in this case from the west) and consequently looks very lopsided. It made me wonder if I should have planted it in more sun. Has anyone else experienced this?

My cornus alternifolia was originally planted on the north side of my house in full sun, where it languished. I dug it up and replanted it on the south side of my house, using the house as shelter on the north, adding lilacs, and eventually putting in a paperbark maple to the west. I left the overhead clear. It thrived. It went from having a single leaf and being 1 1/2 feet tall to this.

I think that they like a location that shelters them from wind, but mine loved direct sunlight from above, even in 90 degree heat.

Beautiful Donna....absolutely beautiful.

I loved that plant. Perhaps because I almost dug it up and tossed it. It was like a puppy. I am trying to figure out whether I have enough space in my new yard for another one.

It does get an hour or two of direct sun around noon but it's on the east side of the house so it gets shade most of the afternoon and of course, the tree is stretching to the west. Perhaps I need to know more about what "understory" really means. I'm always pruning the west side of the tree to keep it more balanced but ultimately I'll be defeated in that regard.

I think kousa's definitely do better with more sun.
And in particular, they bloom much better.
I've seen fabulous kousas in full luxuriant bloom on long island,
where they're pretty much grown in full sun.
I think our midwest climate is too unforgiving for full sun,
but I think I've overcompensated and put mine in too much shade.
So I get correspondingly puny blooms.

Your pagoda looks great, Donna.
Mine does fine in pretty much shade - blooms better in shade than kousa,
though probably not as lush a bloom as yours.
But I'm particularly fond of the golden cultivar 'Gold Boullion' (foliage is all-gold)
and gold-variegated 'Golden Shadows' (green with broad gold margins).
They are so much easier to grow than the old 'Variegata' and the foliage is beautiful,
especially fresh spring growth. I've got both under a fairly dense tree canopy.

My kousa doesn't bloom every year for me but when it does, it's great. Not sure why it doesn't bloom some years. It's not a named variety (that I know of) and I got it as a little stick years ago.

From what I recall learning at work, it is absolutely true that some dogwoods tolerate more sun than others, Kousa being one that will tolerate, not only more sun, but also a more alkaline soil as well.

The term "understory" is not exactly the same as "shade", which might also come into play when growing them... it's all an environmental thing. When stuff, in nature, is growing in a forrest, under the canopy of larger trees, there's a whole 'nother environment that is created, including humidity, along with the different types of sunlight, and amounts of sunlight **when** certain things need it. (eg: some understory trees/shrubs leaf out sooner than the canopy trees, naturally taking advantage of that additional sunlight that's coming through before the cover trees leaf out and shade them again). Then, some understory trees thrive best along the edges of woodlands, getting even more sunlight than those who would be smack dab in the middle of a forrest or copse. Probably more water, too.

Then too, there's always the matter of, what sorts of other trees are around contributing (with leaf-fall), to the conditions of the soil. Many many factors to consider in the life of an understory tree. =)

As with people, there are always exceptions to the rules, but generally, this is what I was taught to be a pretty good guidline, to keep all these (and more!) factors in mind.

I wanted to post a couple pictures of my cornus alternifolias.
The first is the straight species blooming quite nicely in dense shade.
The second is the Golden Shadows variegated cultivar.
I think it's beautiful all summer long and so far seems quite vigorous.
The 3rd is the all-gold Gold Bullion cultivar - not a great picture - it's really bright.
But the brightness fades later in the summer.
Finally, my puny kousa blooms ('Satomi') on a plant reaching despirately for sun...

Oh, Speedie, thank you. That explains it. My pagoda was "surrounded" and had the benefit of leafdrop. One thing I did do was use ironite twice a year on the paperbark maple and the pagoda. I have read that while maples tolerate a great deal what they "really" like is acid soil. When I moved in my ph was teasted at 7.9 (yikes) so I started laying down compost from the community farm (free!) twice a year. And twice a year I would go out with my trusty Ironite and spray the dogwood, the 14 bayberries and five fothergillas (acid loving plants that were installed in my very alkaline yard), while avoiding the nearby lilacs. I also kept my dogwood mulched, and put a soaker hose under the mulch to give it a watering from time to time in the summer.

That creates all the conditions you mention. When I think about it I was trying to create the conditions Weerobin has naturally. I love fussing over my plants.

Wow, four different "doggies". How wonderful!

Weerobin, those are fantastic samples of your various "doggies". as Donna has mentioned, lol. 'Satomi' is dilightful with the slight hint of pink tint to its petals. May I ask do those make blueberries later in the season? Speediebean, sound input on the subject of "understory", Donna and others has also shared some very helpful ideas. I love it when everyone is bringing interesting ideas to the table. Thank you all.

The weekend was a productive one, DH and I continued to work with our Fall clean up, and planning for the shade garden.

Thanks, Speedie, for enlightenment. And I do confuse "understory" with "shade" a lot!
And thanks for the pics - all very inspiring. Actually has me in the acquisition mode now that our awful summer has past.

That is a very woodlot on the other side of the fence 'Lily'.

rouge21, yes especially within the fence perimeter. I so love trees, I couldn't get any down. This past year, we cleared out the under growing shrubs and vines. Fenced the area to keep our beloved pets room to roam when needed. The area will be planted with just a few ornamental shrubs such as the mentioned buckeyes. Maybe some mountain laurels? On the open side of the fence, I planned to add some lilies I think.

speedybean, the leather-leaf mahonia are currently putting out flower buds, I'll post some pics. when I get a chance.

Also, I made a mistake calling my Aucuba japonica 'Nana' a Mahonia. Sorry for the error.

Here are couple pics. of the 'shady area' that we're working on. Phase 1, the planning phase. Your suggestion is welcome. ^_^

Lily - that's a pretty steep drop beyond the fence line unless my perspective is wrong. Will your wooded area remain pretty dry from run-off? Looks like the native trees have given you a pretty nice backdrop for some ornamentals.