STARTING OUR 2012 FALL/WINTER VEGGIE GARDENS - PT. 2

Wow, nice tomato plants! Have your grown Vorlon before? If so what you do think of the taste?

I need to join or buy the book he has, I'm going nuts with having 3 or 4 guides telling me when to plant. The tomatoes are more than large enough and are going out for 1/2 days so i can put them out now if they could live

Vorlon does well for me, production is medium and taste is good

So few gardening books are written for hot climates, especially hot humid ones. Instead we are stuck reading books for climates that don't have our ruthless weeds and pests and claim everything is oh-so-simple and if you really, really wish hard Tinkerbell will be okay and you can conquer bermuda grass with a little straw mulch.

That said, a hot muggy August is when southern gardeners curl up with the seed catalogs and favorite garden books instead of when there's snow outside. My favorites are:

Ashworth's "Seed to Seed" -- I used to live down the road from her, and yeah, Northern California is a whole different garden world, but she includes regional variances when important, too.

Coleman's "Four Season Harvest" -- We are definitely not New England here! But it's good inspirational material and it's what got me to seriously work at non-summer gardening, which is SO much easier here than the summer season. And you can flip some of his ideas and make cooler micro climates, too.

Jeavon's "How to Grow More Vegetables" -- Another Northern California guru, and you can't transplant his method here intact, but there is so much good research in the book it has something for every region.

Solomon's "Gardening When it Counts" -- Granted, he thinks that it's impossible to grow anything in the soil conditions we have in the southeast (which is utterly wrong), but I still think he has a much-needed viewpoint for balance against all the trendy garden books that insist you can grow healthy plants in zero soil. There's a time and a place for layering and companion planting, but you need more tools in your toolbelt if you are growing for cost effective food production instead of merely as a hobby.

What are ya'lls favorite garden books?

lol I'm a bad garden junkie I don't read them.

I really like "The Veggie Gardener's Answer Book: Solutions to Every Problem You'll Ever Face; Answers to Every Question You'll Ever Ask" by Barbara W. Ellis. It is somewhat simplistic, but reading it just makes me happy. I like the set-up (Dear Abby, Question and answer style by crop).

Whenever I start seeds for a crop I haven't grown in a few months I pull it out and look it over. It helps feed/subdue my excitement. I realize that is a contradictory statement but I hope anyone who has ever looked at a seed catalog will understand my meaning.

I just read here! LOL

Texas garden books are the same, written for Houston or Dallas area. They lump us in with San Antonio and Corpus Cristi. We are nothing like any of those areas!

sorry, answered my own question:)

This message was edited Aug 7, 2012 8:47 PM

Year Round Vegetables, Fruits and Flowers for Metro Houston

by Bob Randall, Ph.D.

I have (and like) an older version of that one. Even for my area it has good suggestions for cultivars and seasons.

For herbs, Southern Herb Growing ~ Madalene Hill & Gwen Barclay

The Pak Choi seeds I sowed on Sunday sprouted last night! The seed package said they should take 2 to 3 weeks to sprout, not 3 days!

I think it will be too hot to put them outside when they are ready to be transplanted!

Well,
Looks like I'm following the same (successful) schedule I was on last year!

One thing I'll do differently though, is start hardening off the cabbages, cauliflowers, and broccoli about 3 weeks earlier than I did last year. I was worried about the heat outside and kept them in longer, but, not this time!

They're gonna sulk either indoors or outdoors until the cool sets in, so, long as I get a drip system in place to keep the soil moist, they're gonna sulk outside!

Also, I'm not gonna plant just one huge batch of veggies for one humongous harvest all at once. The adjusted plan this year will have me starting seeds indoors every 4 weeks, so I can fill in vacant spaces from mid-September until the last batch goes in around December 21 (the Winter Solstice will be the cut off). I have to time the last batch to mature and come out by mid-February when I'll need the space to set the tomato seedlings out.

And, they WILL be out by mid-February....

Could those of you who are planting in raised beds share what you're grouping together in each bed, please? I have four targeted growing areas, and realize the garlic alone will need to occupy one of those spaces for at least 6-8 months!

Has anyone grown garlic in a container? Like one of those shallow, under-bed flats that are about 8-11" deep and long and narrow? I'm thinking I could press one into service so I don't tie up my beds with the garlic. If push comes to shove, I can use one of my Earthboxes for garlic alone.

Thanks!

Linda

It's time to direct sow broccoli seeds. Does that mean I can start them in containers/pots now and transplant later? Should I just try to sow them out in the garden?

Steph,

I was reading in Dr. Bob's Big Book last night that you can direct sow them outside into large pots, or seed flats, but keep them shaded outside. Once they're established to 1-2", you can separate and transplant them. Saves on potting mix doing it this way.

From my observation, I'd say it's still too hot outside for the brassicas, and will be until around mid- to late-September (preferably mid-October). That's why I started just a fraction of mine inside, where it's a tiny bit cooler. The trick is to get them started, but not keep them confined past about 6 true leaves, or they'll stall.

Last year I kept mine inside for almost 8 weeks before hardening them off, and they still took forever once outside. But this year they're going outside soon as I see 4 true leaves. They'll be hardy enough to withstand the waning heat, and the pill bugs, and I can better keep them moist. I'll keep them growing under the shade of the patio so that, soon as the weather starts to change, I can set them with (hopefully) no problems.

I'll start more seeds at 4 week intervals. This'll help me pinpoint which seeding timeframe worked best.

Linda

Steph,
Here's another option I may use again for starting some of my brassicas outdoors. Definitely for starting the finicky spinach!

I did this last season with some herb seeds and it was THE BOMB! So totally EZ, and having the seedlings come up in an individual pvc tube is a great tool to avoid having to tease them apart from a seed tray! Just push each one out with very little root disturbance. The hardest part was cutting all the pvc tubes. I have a hand-held tool, but, I've discovered an much easier one I have to pick up soon. My tubes were 2" diameter (thin walled interior)

Hugs!

I usually only double up my plantings in time -- for example, planting seeds in the bed where I know I'll be removing something soon. That change from year to year -- I just find empty or soon to be empty spots and plant whatever needs planting and fits into my rotation. If I plant things together ala square foot gardening in this climate, too much water and outside inputs are required, for one, and it also makes it harder to see emerging problems (like tomato blight) when there are other plants in the way.

There are a few exceptions. I'll plant trellised peas with small root vegetables like carrots, garden turnips and beets. It doesn't seem to affect the productivity of either and I can clearly see all the plants, and the peas don't seem to be bothered by having their roots disturbed a bit at harvest time. Most herbs seem to prefer to be crowded. This year I also tried sunflowers and runner beans. Both plants seem happy but the beans overwhelmed the sunflowers after it finished carpeting the nearby fence. (And now the luffa gourds are piling on top. I forgot how long those vines get!) Last year the peas and garlic did very well together.

One thing about garlic is that is doesn't take up much space and nothing seems to bother it (other than my dog, who likes the fresh tops). You could do an edging on two sides of your bed -- leaving access in the middle -- or maybe short rows in the middle of your beds with it and plant around it. Or just put it in your landscaping somewhere. I don't think the shallow boxes you are talking about will be deep enough. Something tall but narrow would be better. Kitty litter buckets, maybe?

Thanks, NicoleC!

"...and plant whatever needs planting and fits into my rotation..."

I'm trying to begin for the first time so I don't have that rotation thing down just yet. Only have one RB going right now. It is RB #1, and has the following growing:
3 tomato seedlings (not bearing anything yet -- only about 1 foot tall)
3 Okra plants (about 28" tall and starting to crank out okras)
17 bell peppers (about 24" tall and cranking out miniature bell peppers....duh...)
6 eggplants (also 24" tall, and setting blossoms)

I just started seeds for the cabbages, cauliflowers, and broccoli, all of which is targeted to go into RB #1 beginning the end of September, or whenever the stuff already in it now stops growing.

RB #2 will be for my root crops of carrots, turnips, beets. What else can I put in there with them?

Oh, both beds are 4 x 8', and I have two more very sunny growing areas approx. 3 x 12' that can be pressed into service. One is on the NW fence line and the other is directly along the North fence line. Sun all day.

Here's my growing list:
Early Jersey Wakefield Cabbage
Early Round Dutch Cabbage
Brunswick Cabbage
Early Wonder Beets
Detroit Dark Red Beets
Snowball Y Improved Cauliflower
Snow Crown Cauliflower
Texas 1015Y Onion Seeds
Red Creole Onion Seeds
Little Marvel Peas
Wando Peas

From Johnny's Select Seeds Company
Waltham Butternut Squash
Acorn Squash
Arcadia Broccoli
Green Magic Broccoli
De Cicco Broccoli
Cassius Broccoli
Fava Beans
Space Spinach
Da Cheong Chae-Mini Asian Pac Choi
Lettuce

I'm working with Dr. Bob Randall's Big Book for Texas Veggie gardeners, but I'd like a perspective from someone else who's actively growing in raised beds, too!

thanks!

Linda

This message was edited Aug 8, 2012 1:12 PM

I've put in a request from the library for the book, I'd love to see when he says to plant everything out as well as general info for this area.

Linda, EB's facebook page had a thing about garlic in EB's. They looked fantastic.

Yes, Nicole, I think the key word here is regional variances. Both in Texas and Northern CA. We are nothing like the NoCA coast, or even the central valleys. We are hot in summer - dry hot, and cold in winter, yes, snow and frost. We live in the Sierra foothills 20 mountain miles southeast of Placerville. So Sacramento is to the south of us and Lake Tahoe is to the north of us. We are cooler than the valley, but hotter than Lake Tahoe. We do not get as much snow as Lake Tahoe either, thank goodness. So we are also zone 8, but much different in many ways than Texas, but with some similar.

I try to take into account each gardening book and calendar, and try to adjust. Even year to year is different for us, and probably for you as well. We had a mild winter with hardly any snow or frost this year, but the winter before was brutal with blizzard-like conditions with many downed trees and branches. Same thing with spring and summer. Last year I lost many tomatoes that I put out early, and this year, I should have put them out early, as I did not put them out until late May. So next year, I will put out just a few early, and see what happens.

That is the advantage of growing from seed. You do not need to rely on garden centers to provide them for you at a cost of going there, besides the purchase price. Seeds are cheap, and even better if we can save our seeds. They are ready to start in late winter and get ready for the growing season. Then if we lose a few seedlings due to late frosts, we have some in reserve. That is what I will do next year, as this year is a very good "tomato year", and mine are producing well, but not yet ripe. Most of you have already harvested most of your crops. So "live and learn"...hopefully!!

Linda ~ Don't think that people do not appreciate your efforts and the time that you take to share with all of us of you endeavors to establish good gardening habits. Consistant journaling, using lots of compost, and you are not afraid to try something new each year. I have been reading your posts for a few years now, and have been meaning to tell you how much it means to have someone there to share their hard-earned efforts with all of us. THANK YOU!! ^_^

wow, Evelyn!

Thank you so much!

I remember when I started at Dave's and TPlant, Horseshoe (my Ubie Wahn Shooie!), Tapla, and Famerdill took me under their wings. I must've asked a hundred million questions back then, and I still do.

I was born to teach, and if I can help a newbie along the way like I was helped, then, it goes full circle!

Hugs!

P.S. Thanks for the compost reminder. Somehow I was getting hung up on MANURE amendments, and, in reading Dr. Bob's book, there was a sentence that jumped off the page. COMPOST, COMPOST, COMPOST is what I should have bags, er, mountains of!

Linda

I love the pvc container idea. It's great.

Oh heavens, Linda... I'd put maybe 3 tomatoes in a 4x8' bed and then I'd have to prune them to fit! I don't know how you fit all that in there!

I'd trellis the peas up over your root veggie bed. You could grow some radishes in there as well since they mature so fast.

Cabbages and broccoli I give a minimum of 2' square (if they are standard sized.) Waltham butternut gets really big; it typically covers about 200 square feet untrellised for me if I push the runners back to the center. So I'd stick those in your landscape beds. (Plus they are pretty.) It's a little dicey to trellis Waltham butternut since they get so big.

That leaves your second bed for lettuce and spinach... and maybe the onions? I'm not sure about the onions since I don't grow them.

You plant the seeds in the PVC pipes, then put them in the totes. Are there holes in the bottom of the totes?

I think yes, there are drainage holes in the flat.
When I did mine, I used old dresser drawers. I'll use my painted drawers this time. I drilled holes in the bottoms.

Thanks, Nicole!

Did they come out easily or would it be helpful to have a piece of PVC slightly smaller to push them out around the inside edges?

Steph,
Yeah, another piece to push the plugs out would be VERY helpful.

Just a thought on this. Drilling holes in the flat means we're probably watering from the top down, and we want the roots to go deep, right? I'm thinking that setting them into the flat directly on a shallow bed of potting mix, would probably make for better watering. Just fill the flat a couple inches and let the plugs wick the water up.

Maybe drill just ONE drain hole for any overflow. I have LOTS of bucket hole plugs!

I'm going to re-think my method...

What do you think is best?

Linda

I have no idea, but I do know they would need some kind of drainage so the roots are sitting in water all the time. I think maybe sitting the tote on top of some rocks would be better than soil so the roots don't become established.

I cut some top growth off my tomato plants this morning. Do you think it's too late to get them started? My husband, of course, says, "Of course it's not too late!" He loves to experiment!

Steph,
It depends on the days to maturity. I'd say we have about 90 days until November 9th. Depends on how cool it will be by then.

Most all of the seedlings I started Monday evening are up. They're under lights inside for the next 4-5 weeks, then potting up (maybe) and hardening off.

They'd better hit the ground running!

What're your upcoming weekend gardening plans?

Who's doing what, and when?

Send a shout out!

Linda

I'm missing my garden, I want to get my hands in the dirt!

My plans include staying cool.

Well,

I have brassicas seedlings up, and, I can't remember how long I need to wait before separating them...I think I waited much too long last time. They were almost 4-6" tall and had multiple sets of true leaves. Should've gone into the garden at that point, instead of being potted up!

Holler, ya'll!

Linda

Linda -

It will not stand up to the sun. The plastic will become brittle and break apart. We had one that had been left outside (don't remember why) and that's what happened to it.

Thank, Bee.

I do remember you saying that! Since the garlic needs a sunny? spot, and I have all those Rubbermaid tubs available (35 gallons, about 18" deep), you think I could use those? They don't get brittle at all.

They're the ones I'm growing the sweeties in now. I also have some 25 gallon molasses tubs available. They're 22" deep. What medium should I use to grow garlic in a container?

Thanks!

Linda

This afternoon, I get to mow and pump up the tires in the tiller I borrowed. Saturday morning, I am the people-wrangler for a medicinal and ethic vegetable garden tour for our local Food Policy Council, starring *90* different kinds of basil. In the afternoon, I am tilling up my garden extension and installing the raised beds. (I say "raised" but they are half sunken... the fun of living on a slope.)

Sunday... probably kayaking. Can't do big garden chores every day!

Linda, I have found it best to prick-out seedlings before their roots intertwine. How long that takes is something I've not yet worked out!

My Pak Choi sprouted August 8th and I'll probably prick one out on Monday to see how the roots are doing. I sowed twelve seeds and eight sprouted. I only need six plants to start with.

I'll have to start Brussels sprouts, kohrabi and peas next week!

Linda - I'm not the best one to give advice on container gardening - I've never been any good at it.

My garlic did well last winter/spring/summer in a six inch raised bed. 88 cloves went in on Nov 7th 2011 and 88 garlic heads came out June 10th to 13th 2012.

Photo taken May 6th 2012

Edit: Just realized, the rows nearest camera are onions, the garlic was in the same bed behind the garlic.

This message was edited Aug 10, 2012 12:46 PM

I haven't ever been good with garlic in containers either. Mine do best in raised beds, silty sandy garden loam gave me the best heads. We get pink rot so have to always be sure onions, grass and garlic had not been growing there for several years. The only area where grass isn't a problem is down by the water which happens to have good garlic growing soil.

Honeybee, how deep do you plant the cloves? I think I plant mine too shallow, only about an inch below the soil. They do okay, they just stick out of the dirt before they're finished.