how to propagate lilacs?

A neighbor has an old lilac (should I call it a clump or a bush?) The stems are thick and woody and I see very little or no new wood each year. No suckers at all.

How would I propagate it, like take a cutting or a division (I assume seeds would be dumb to try).

Hardwood cuttings? I very seldom try to root cuttings because they turn to slime.

Encourage suckers how? It is very hard clay and this lilac sits just above where a puddle sometimes forms, so i assume a high water table. The neighbor would probabky let me excavate around it and amend the soil, but I would rtaher be lazy.

Severe pruning? In what season?

I'm patient, and if it took 2-3 years I wouldn't mind.

Corey

Corey ~ I dug out the suckers from my white lilac and gave them to a friend. She planted them right away and they did fine. All I have is white. Would you like me to send you some this fall? I think that the stems will root quickly actually.

Did you ask your neighbor if you could mess with her "nerdy" lilacs?

I have tried with no luck at all to root cuttings from lilacs and much to my dismay, it does not work. I would think you need suckers.

Hi Evelyn. I do have a prejudice for the purple color, but thanks very much anyway. Do they have the great fragrance of purple lilacs?

JB,

I would have to encourage suckers to have any, and wondered how. Pruning? Giving better soil in the top layers? Fertilizing? It seems to have been very neglected for a long time.

"His" lilacs now - he's a new neighbor with bad knees and is currently paying someone to rip out as many weeds, ferns and perennial flowers as possible and lay down plastic, then bark, so he won't ever have to touch or weed it.
:-( :-( :-(

I had to explain to this hired guy that certain bushes he planned to chop down were extremely attractive, and that azealeas are not rhododendrons. He thinks ferns are weeds, too. His total gardening savvy was that blooming cala Lilies might not be weeds
:-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(


I don't think the guy with bad knees would object, and if he does, I'll offer to do some weeding for him for free.

The hired guy ripped a bunch of things out, piled the bramnches, scattered tools and a wheelb arrow about, and has not been seen for several days. When we lived on Cape Cod, we called that a "Cape Cod Handyman".

Corey

Oh God, that is so sad. The old bushes are so hard to come by and some people have no clue how lucky they are to have them. Seriously, I have pink, yellow and lilac lilacs and the pink one is a beauty. If I can find a sucker, and you want it I will be happy to send it to you.

The yellow is miserable. It has never bloomed and I thought I lost it last winter. I think there may be about three of the pink out there and they are very different. They bloom for several weeks and are very fragrant.

Thanks, JB, but I have my heart set on

1. classic lilac (which I called 'purple' but you're right, the color is "lilac")
2. reviving this old clump and learning to spread it around.

One of these years!

If I can't perk this old one up to the point where it puts outt suckers, I'll come back to you and ask again.

By then I should have Salvia and might have Penstemon to divide and offer in return.

Corey

JB, I would love to have a couple suckers of the pink and whatever you have. I love lilacs and about 5 years ago I dug a couple of suckers up on a place that used to be an old Chicken Ranch but those damned things never did bloom. They grew, but no blooms. They were the old lilacs.

Corey, my sister has some of those. I will ask her for a couple. For you and I. How many do you want? I don't know how many I can get. She said they really have a great fragrance.

Jen

No prpblem Corey, I want nothing in return. I am just willing to share. Let me know if you change your mind. I do have an old lilac lilac but it has no suckers. I guess when they get older they stop. If a sucker comes out on an old limb, I wonder if I pulled that and tried to root it would it root. That is a sucker too isn't it or is that considered a new branch? Oh well, whatever.

Jen, tell me when it is time to separate them and if I have any I sure will see you get them when the weather breaks.

JB, I wonder if they eventually do get old and die? I have had plants, for instance a Daphne, that what I called "killed itself". Only about 3 years old. Sometimes I think the younger plants are best. For instance, I read somewhere that on coleus that you have a better plant if you don't hold the plant over the winter, but take starts from it and have a new plant each spring. So, I did that with one and have a much nicer plant. I took 3 starts, rooted them and put them all in the same pot. It is a beautiful plant this year. Much nicer than the original plant.

I am not saying that is the case with the Lilac. I think they might just get too old. Don't know. There are a lot of really old ones around and no way of knowing how old they are, but if they stop growing suckers that might be an indication?

The Daphne I was speaking of, dropped berries every year and there were a lot of small ones coming up. The main plant did just fine over the winters etc. but after 3 years it died. I had dug up a few of the little plants that had been started from the berries and gave them to my mom. Hers did the same thing. After 3 years it died. Amazing!!

Now you know what I just did???? Without even realizing it, in one post, I talked about 3 plants. Lilacs, Daphne, and Coleus. This is the propagation forum isn't it? I was talking about propagation on all 3.

BUT, according to the "rules" I should have had 3 different threads? How could I do that and made any sense of it?

Corey and Jen - Do you have the book
The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation by Michael A. Dirr and Charles W. Heuser, Jr.
There must be twenty lilacs listed in there and it discusses their propagation methods.
If the lilac we are talking about is the "common" I will type you the information. If not, please give me the cultivar name and I will see if it is listed.

According to the book, there are several ways plus seeds used.

Jen, do not confuse me as to where I have to go to answer questions. This is a total PITA.

I think there is a special thread on ATP regarding lilacs. It could be under fragrant gardening thread. Now see this is what I mean. Why in hell can we not discuss this on our regular group and one of them would no doubt know what I do not know. @#$%$^^&*&$@# Too many places to look to find answers. I think I will just start to google questions and screw these people.

Jen said:
>> Corey, my sister has some of those. I will ask her for a couple. For you and I. How many do you want?

Thanks! One or two is great, because if they both die, I'll ask you again. I'm in the Address Exchange:
http://davesgarden.com/address_exchange/

The fragrance is one of the things I love. When I was a kid, we had an old clump of lilacs that was so big I could crawl inside and wallow in their scent .

If you see anything at all in my trade list ("blog entry") you'd be very welcome to it. Also, check the New Bee Stash seed list, because I can send you any of their seeds and make them up from my own stash.
third post in: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1191453/
Post #8662981

Corey

JB said:
>> Corey and Jen - Do you have the book
>> The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation by Michael A. Dirr and Charles W. Heuser, Jr.
>> There must be twenty lilacs listed in there and it discusses their propagation methods.

No, but I have a very general book that Evelyninthegarden gave me, "Plant Propagation" by Philip Browse.
it tells how to do many different kinds of propagation, but very little advice about what works for what species.


>> This is a total PITA.

One way to deal with the Thread Police is to "move along" when they roust you, and then not worry much about it until the next time. I think they're pretty lucky if people keep 20% of the chat somewhat related to the main purpose of the whole forum, and occasionally bring a thread back on-topic.

But an obvious chat thread is always on-topic! If some good gardening info gets lost in it, too bad. Someone can always copy or paraphrase it into a new thread, assuming they want to, or feel that DG pays them enough to go to extra trouble to make the site better for other people.

Jen said:
>> Now you know what I just did???? Without even realizing it, in one post,
>> I talked about 3 plants. Lilacs, Daphne, and Coleus. This is the propagation forum isn't it?
>> I was talking about propagation on all 3.
>>
>> BUT, according to the "rules" I should have had 3 different threads?
>> How could I do that and made any sense of it?

I agree with you, and even think the Admins would. The idea about lilacs "growing old and dieing" came up, and you gave three related examples. Perfectly on-topic.

If the Thread Police scold us again, we have an alibi.

I think that, if we got deeply enough into those plants' propagation needs, it MIGHT be a nice touch to move it to a thread with a related title ... if DG had a Search feature that would search just titles.

P.S. It's an issue in library science, and for one of the characters in Alice In Wonderland, whether to file it under "Propagation" or "Daphne". There is no solution I know, other than links or "hypertext".

Over in ATP, when some good gardening info drifted into in a site-related "webmaster" kind of thread, they moved it for us, over to another forum and gave it another thread title, and now people with that interest DO stumble upon it. Convenient.


Corey

Corey, if they really wanted to, or cared, all they, or you have to do is search a person's name. If the system is working right, it would bring up all the things you are on. So, your new one would be right at the top.

You can run but you can't hide.

Jen

This is not the time to propagate lilac of any kind according to what I am reading. If you take cuttings you need to take the flower before it opens or after it is open and etc.
I can not tell you all of it. I also said you can take the seeds and how to prepare them. When I have time I will see if I can scan the page. Maybe tomorrow. I am tired and am going to go now. I hope I do not forget. If I do send me a private dmail because I am not sure where the hell I am anymore. This sucks.

No, I have not seen that book JB. I doubt if I would try to start a Lilac bush from seeds. I don't think I would have the patience waiting for it to be a nice plant. LOL, sorry. Now Corey probably would. It might be interesting. I will see if my sister still has some seeds on her plant. If so, maybe I will even try it. I will send some to Corey and Evelyn too. If she has not deadheaded the whole thing. Probably not. Don't think she can reach them. I will have Bob do it.

Gotta run, jeanette

>> This is not the time to propagate lilac of any kind according to what I am reading.

JB, so far as I can relate what I see in my book to lilacs, the suckers should be taken during the dormant season, with young suckers being better than old (I guess).

Jen, I will try them any time your sister finds convenient! But maybe fall would be better than summer, if that's still convevient for her.

In the meantime, I will probably "offer" to prune the neighbor's lilac bush and fertilize and weed around it. Then, a year or two later, if there are any suckers, ask for some.

Corey

P.S. I usually browse my active threads by "watching" them from the "Home" tab. There I see a list of threads with posts I have not yet read, and jump to them by clicking on the title. That way is fast and handy even if 10-20 threads all 'hit' at once.

Jen ~ Please do not send me any seeds for lilacs. I do not have the patience to grow trees and shrubs from seed. If I were in my 20's or 30's, I would say, great. But not now.

Regarding lilacs according to: "How to Grow Almost Everything", by Stanley Schuler

Lilacs are propagated by the suckers of "own-root" plants or greenwood stem cuttings taken from any plant in May or June.

Plant lilacs in very early spring or fall in a sunny location. The soil should be deeply dug, well-drained (shouldn't every soil?), limed if acid and enriched with dried manure or bone meal. Set own-root plants at the depth in which they previously grew. If the plants are grafted, bury the graft. Apply bone meal in early spring the first two years. Keep well-watered the first six months; thereafter water only in dry spells.

BTW ~ Mine grows in clay, previously in part sun. Now the nearby pine tree has been cut this year and it now gets full sun, so there should be a lot more flowers next year. I used to hate reading the instructions for growing so many plants in full sun, moist, well-drained soil. If mine are in full sun, they will be dry. My soil is clay so it will be wet or dry, never well-drained...so exactly true, as I do amend. Still, the soil reverts to what it is, regardless of amendments.

>> I doubt if I would try to start a Lilac bush from seeds. I don't think I would have the patience waiting for it to be a nice plant. LOL, sorry. Now Corey probably would.

You know me too well! My O. Seed D. has been acting up lately. Like for the last 50+ years!

Corey

OCD = Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, so-called.

Obviously
Craves
Details

>> Maybe you should just take over from that fellow that was doing the yard work

I've been tempted: he is SO lame. But it would take time, and I must work for Napolean, whio said something like "You can ask me for anything BUT time." It's a non-renewable resource.

Besides: by the time encourage suckers, take them, root them and plant them, I may have already died, moved or used up every spot in my yard where lilacs may have gone.

I finally realized that one of my goals was to rejuvenate the original bush. It has many stems, someof them thick and old.

Corey

If you intend to do that, I would prune some of the stems down to the ground, and some of them one third down. The pruning is usually done right after blooming.

"Once every 2-3 years, in winter, remove branches that do not have vigorous flower buds.", According to that same book I quoted before. I prune after flowering. I cannot remember a time when it did not have flowers, but they were not as vigorous as they will be next year and the following year, since they have a sunnier exposure.

I will look for a picture in my files. And yes, they are quite fragrant.

Oh, here it is....

They are pretty, thanks for the upload.

I appreciate the pruning advice - I didn't know that sometimes you should just shorten a stem. I suspect that, for the first two years, I can remove only conspicuously old or damaged stems and still remove plenty of wood.

Corey

Corey, I will ask my sister about her Lilacs and think probably sometime in September might be the best time to dig them. In case you think of it before I do, give me a shout and jar me awake. I will let you know what she says. Sure hope she hasn't done anything to get rid of the suckers. Would you like a couple raspberry bushes stuck in with them? I think she might have those too. She sure picks a lot of them I do believe they are thornless. But, nothing can match those wild blackberries you guys have over there.

Jen

>> probably sometime in September might be the best time to dig them.
>> In case you think of it before I do, give me a shout

Thanks, will do! I don't have a lot of sunny space, but that gives me time to pick a spot, chop out juniper, and amend the soil. Maybe take advantage of the ambiguity of property lines in a manufactured home park to plant them between my property and the nighbors, with his permission. His only gardening goal is to spare his bad knees, and they'll be better gthan the "plastic and bark" he was planning.


>> couple raspberry bushes

No, thanks. My "bed expansion" was devoted to Salvia and Lavatera this year (and some Lobellia, poppy and snapdragon). My arable area grows by only a few square feet at a time, and my ambition exceeds my grasp already. Bushes are big.

I already spend too much time cursing, chopping, pulling and poisoning (wild?) blackberry vines. In my last yard, nice edible blackberries grew on a chain link fence and stayed there (although mowing them frequently out of dense turf may have helped contain them). Here, they are just omnipresent invasive weeds that won't die.

Corey

I know. When I lived in Seattle, I had a half an acre. The entire back 20 or so feet out was BB bushes all the way across. Think the lots were at least 100 feet wide. I spent one weekend with a fire out there I would use the loppers and cut off 3 ft at a time and feed the fire. Finally got them all cut off. Then I used Roundup as they came up. AND a lawn mower every week and I finally got them all off. It was amazing. Now I would give anything for a nice patch I could keep under control.

I picked some at a farm a couple of years ago but they did not have the same flavor.

Please don't cut anything off until I make sure I can get some Lilacs. That she hasn't cut them off already.

You know we were just talking about that today. The hybridizing of the plants has "bred" the fragrance, or flavor out of the flowers or produce. Apples. They had to make them beautiful or people didn't want them. So, they ruined the flavor. Roses, they made them so perfect looking that they don't look real, and have no fragrance. Other things like the Lilacs are the same way. Also, they import almost all the flowers they sell in the florist's shops or in Safeway etc. Every petal or leaf is perfect. Not natural.

Even on Cape Cod, blackberries or briars were hard to kill. It was an ongoing battle.

>> Please don't cut anything off until I make sure I can get some Lilacs.

I only plan to do the first year what the bush needs to be healthy. Next year, take more and aim for "vigorous" - it's been neglected. If the owner agrees, I'll keep on pruning more until it puts out new branches and suckers, but that may take a few years.

I would agree with you about "un-natural", but there are some modern roses that just take my breath away. And others that I may not love as much, but they make my jaw drop, like two that were on this proerty when I started renting, with blooms so big they take two hands to cup them.

Do you consider "Knockout" roses unnatural in apearance? To me, the smaller blooms with no cutflower endurance seem more like wild roses ... and I don't like that.

Most other plants, I'll agree with you.

Corey

Hi everyone!

JB, Evelyn, Jeanette.....I would love, love, love to have any color of lilac..... think of me if you have enough to spare.... I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE lilacs!! How could anyone cut down lilacs!!!!!!!!!!! Perish the thought!! Let me know if there is anything I can send you ladies in return....

Nice to see everyone here.... :) Nancy

BTW.... Rick... do you like the Austin roses? I have one called Glamis castle... white.... very delicate... but sooooooo pretty!! Nancy

Corey ~ I agree with you on the "Knockout" roses. Most of them fade in bright sunlight as well, so what good are they? I DO love many roses, but the ones I had were damaged so bad by the deer, I had to remove them. I may try again, and start a series of spraying with repellant before I plant them. Once there is enough repellant on them, they seem to leave them alone.

Winter is my downfall, as I don't usually go out in the snow to spray, and that is when they nibble on the shrubs and make messes. Maybe this year I will spray in time. I have to spray repellant in the planting holes for the gophers as well. But, I do not live in the city anymore, so there is a tradeoff. No more billboards and cement...So many years I lived in Southern CA in the city! The last place in Southern CA that I lived was Topanga Canyon, and by far the nicest for me (rural, mountainous).

How do you like living in a senior complex? That is probably our next step when we are no longer able to work on this property, as there is work every day here. We are retired, but still work pretty hard as it seems to be required, though we love to do it, when we are able.

Evelyn

Nancy ~ Can you post a picture of that rose?

ah ah ah ah ah is this a lilac thread or a rose thread. Bad Bad girls. See, this is just what happens and why separate threads are so stupid and time consuming. How much longer would it take you to open a new thread and make sure Nancy saw what you wrote.
I think I made my point. I am sorry I just could not resist that.

She's right guys. There is no such thing as a catch-all plant is a plant thread on this site. Jen

Hi Evelyn..... I would love to post a photo....but all the cameras I have access to are out right now... my son went to Bonneville and took his.... and hubby needs a new battery so that one is down for the count until I get that task accomplished.... so sorry .... but I can honestly say that my rose looks EXACTLY like the DG photo... if my daughter comes by with her camera before my son gets home I will snap a photo for you. I do love this rose... it is really beautiful... a white that feels like a fluffy white comforter on your bed... it's a soft, gentle rose. I planted it with my son when he was about 5 and he thinks of it as his rose. I don't usually pick them for bouquets as they last longer on the bush.... but sometimes I cannot resist and will cut 2 or 3 for a small vase I put on my bathroom counter... the rose is peaceful to see there as I get ready for work. Do you like it? Nancy

Sorry... here it is http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/200875/#b

Nancy,
>> do you like the Austin roses? I have one called Glamis castle... white... very delicate...

I don't think I know that variety. My favorite rose seems to be almost whatever is in front of me at the moment, but classics like "Mr. Lincon" are high on my list.

>> Glamis castle

I was just reading about that in Kelly Armstorng's "Women of the Otherworld" series!

I inherited two very sickly pink roses with huge blooms trying to grow in deep shade in a cloudy, rainy climate, and that frustration drove me to try "Knockouts". "Black spot on a stick", machine-gunned leaves and stems dieing back.

What I don't like about Knockout roses are the blooms: they aren't good cutflowers, no scent, and not any of my 3-4 favorite rose forms. The huge "two-handed" blooms of my poor sickly plants aren't my favorite, either, but they're so awesomly large that I have to respect tham - and they do last a few days in a vase. Sexy scent!

A neighbor has GORGEOUS coral/orange roses also trying to grow in shade, and they have curvaceous blooms I really like. (I'll have to look up the names for bloom forms to get them right.)

Evelyn,
>> How do you like living in a senior complex?

I do like it. The size of the yard is managable, and we are so dense-packed that almost everyone gives neighbors as much privacy as possible. I wouldn't want to move to an apartment or condo (no garden and less privacy).

I'm lucky to have a somewhat larger yard yard than average for a "park", but it's still much smaller than the lot I owned in NJ.

>> there is work every day here. We are retired, but still work pretty hard as it seems to be required,

Sympathy! That's why I was glad to move away from a big yard. I was always doing "work" like weeding instead of a hobby like planting or creating beds.

Corey

Evelyn, if you are considering it, Bob's mom lived in one for many years and just loved it. A lot of them have many amenities and you can use them or not. She didn't use many. Loved the bingo and pinochle, potlucks once in a while, etc. made a lot of friends. But, like Corey said, she had a lot of privacy.

She had the neighbor build her a sun porch on the side of here unit there and it was so nice. Windows all around which she put blinds on to control the sun and heat, and it gave her a beautiful view of Mount Rainier to watch the sun come up in the morning by.

Jen