Even some cactus flowered zinnias can form flowers as deep as they are wide.
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 4
Some cactus flowered zinnias can even fill in or conceal their centers with petals.
I am looking for deeper flowers with longer narrower petals, to get a more "open" bloom.
Corey,
I think you can find the rounded flower look in nearly any zinnia strain, like in this Whirligig. If you grow quite a few zinnias, you can find nearly anything. Zinnias are very variable, and full of surprises. And you can amplify that a lot by making your own crosses and saving recombinations from those crosses, or by making crosses between crosses.
ZM
>> Oklahoma is an improved Cut-and-Come-Again zinnia,
>> I grew some Gem zinnias this year, which are basically Lilliputs on a more compact plant,
Probably I got those ideas from you a year ago, because I bought both Cut-and-C-A and Gem in hopes of getting some spherical blooms, then might select for larger ones. I thought the Benary Giants had big blooms that weren't far from spherical.
But, this year, no Zinnia that survived came out as I had hoped. Oh, well, that's what next year is for.
>> When a zinnia bloom first opens, it is single, because it hasn't had time to put out more than one row of petals. As it adds more rows of petals, the bloom becomes deeper and the overall shape of the flower becomes more spherical.
>> So it may be that your zinnias this year just didn't have enough time or energy to form as many rows of petals as they could have.
I bet you're exactly right. Seed catalogs are going to show blooms with optimum development, and the Benary Giants I grew weren't even "double", let alone piled higher and deeper into a sphere.
I think i can get away with densely-packed packed petals in a good year, with little risk of disease and pests, because we have little rain in the summer. If I never watered from above, blooms would stay dry until late Septemebr - at which time they turn to moldy sponges.
Hi Corey,
"Seed catalogs are going to show blooms with optimum development, and the Benary Giants I grew weren't even "double", let alone piled higher and deeper into a sphere."
Not all seed catalog pictures of Benary's Giants show "perfect" full rounded blooms. Here are a couple of examples that show more realistic pictures.
http://www.selectseeds.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/041176.1.588016080622053541
http://www.territorialseed.com/category/156/a
"But, this year, no Zinnia that survived came out as I had hoped. Oh, well, that's what next year is for."
Let's hope you get a least a few full nearly rounded zinnia blooms this year. If you cull out the rejects and save seeds from your favorite rounded blooms, you should have a better results in the next generation.
I don't know how it is in your growing season, but here in the MidWest it is possible to grow two generations of zinnias outdoors in the same year, by starting the first generation early under fluorescent lights and setting them out in a fairly advanced stage after the danger of frost has passed. Then, by saving green seeds from the first blooms, you can plant them and get a second generation that can set viable green seeds before a killing frost.
I think I have discussed the green-seed zinnia technique before. By using green zinnia seeds, you save the several weeks that it takes for a zinnia bloom to die and become a dry brown seedhead. A full zinnia head that is still alive with colored petals can have viable green seeds with living embryos in them. When you save green seeds in the Fall, spread them out on something like an old newspaper to dry out before you package them for storage.
But if you are plucking green seeds out of your zinnia heads to start a second generation, just split the seed jacket some way to let the embryo inside get immediate contact with water. Otherwise, you have to wait for the green seed jacket to die before it becomes water permeable, and that can take two weeks or so. The seed coat of a green seed is itself still living, and impermeable to water. There are several other advantages to the green seed technique, as an alternative to the conventional practice of letting the zinnia blooms die and become brown before saving the seeds.
Some scabious zinnia specimens can have rounded flower forms, as in the attached picture.
ZM
Thanks, ZM!
This year I am even "behinder" on garden chores than usual. My current passion is Sal;vias, and I should hahve started them indoors a few weeks ago.
Instead, I'm still floundering about where to put some over-wintered plants, so i can free up my light shelf for ne wseedlings. And they are COVERED with what i assumer are aphids. Like sprinkles on ice cream! It's surprising that the leaves aren;t full of holes or spots, it's as if they are immumne to the aphids.
Corey
Corey,
Do you plan to do anything about the "aphids"? What kind of plants are they on? In the past I used systemic imidacloprid as a first line of defense on my indoor zinnias. It is effective against aphids and thrips, but completely worthless against spider mites.
ZM
Brunera, Penstemon, and Lobelia.
My first plan is to move them outside under plastic for warmth. If they continue to resist being punctured, the aphids are welcome to stay there until ladybugs or some other predator discovers them.
1. Find time
2. buy "EMT conduit"
3. bend conduiit into low hoops
4. find light cheap wire or bamboo for "purlins" (horizontal ribs)
5. lash ribs to hoops so I can lift & move the assembly.
6. move plants to deck, scatter slug bait & beer saucers, cover with plastic
7. hope they dont freeze or cook or get eaten
Corey,
I know that "hoop houses" are commonly used for protecting market garden plants and row-crop plants, and they even have special bending tools to bend the long-radius conduit hoops. The tools I have seen for bending conduit in the Home Stores seemed more appropriate for small radius bends. What diameter of EMT conduit do you plan to use? Hopefully something relatively easy to bend.
I think if I were making a "lift & move" assembly, I would consider PVC pipe and available fittings and joining compounds. PVC pipe is lighter in weight than conduit. Some people even make lawn furniture out of PVC pipe and fittings. Based on the available fittings at the Home Stores, I would probably go with a rectangular box construction with right angle fittings and straight PVC pieces. I might buy a PVC cutter.
But keep us informed of your progress on this project. Sounds interesting. Photos would be welcome. We can now attach as many as 5 photos to a message. Go ladybugs! Eat those aphids.
ZM
I always thoguht the hoops looked nicer than clunky PVC glued into right-angle connectors. But gluing sounds easier than bending! If it were easy to bend PVC into permanent hoops (instead of bending it under tension), I would prefer that.
From what I read, PVC bent with heat is prone to buckling unless you fill it with sand first, heat it, bend, and then remove the sand.
I would use the thinnest/cheapest EMT conduit - so-called 1/2", which I think has a bigger OD than that.
I'm also thinking of some temporary coverings for this year, based on sections of fairly heavy wire fence with plastic film draped over it.
Corey,
"If it were easy to bend PVC into permanent hoops (instead of bending it under tension), I would prefer that."
It's not feasible to bend PVC tubing. However, you might want to consider using large see-through plastic storage boxes, inverted over the plants.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_gnr_aps?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asee-through+storage+box30-gallon&keywords=see-through+storage+box30-gallon&ie=UTF8&qid=1328660797#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=large+see-through+storage+box&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Alarge+see-through+storage+box
That's not what they are designed for, but I have on occasion used one to save a plant from a frost. And you can usually find a use for the storage boxes when not using them over plants.
A variation would be to use four storage boxes over plants at the corners of an area and then to drape plastic film over those boxes to cover additional plants in the area between the boxes. Just sort of "thinking outside the box" here.
ZM
>> It's not feasible to bend PVC tubing.
I haven't tried myself, but varous sources sugegst doing it with a heat gun or a specialized "PVC heater" (250 F). I was thinking that might be faked up with some cinder blocks or concrete pacers, and one or more heat guns.
com http://www.ehow.com/how_8736672_bend-pvc-rail.html#ixzz1Y9ucwlZn
http://www.ehow.com/how_7469691_bend-80-electrical-conduit-pipe.html
http://www.hotbend.com/
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/sanders94.html
Corey,
Thanks for those links. I wasn't aware of it, but obviously there are several tools and techniques that you can use to bend PVC pipe. There is a lot of information on tools for bending PVC and bending jigs at
http://www.pvcworkshop.com/bendpipe.htm
http://www.pvcworkshop.com/ToolPlansSet.htm
The "home" for the PVC Work Shop site is a starting point for many aspects of PVC projects
http://www.pvcworkshop.com/
I also wasn't aware that you could cold-bend PVC. That "Pipe Viper" spring tool looks like a good idea.
http://www.thepipeviper.com/
The Pipe Viper, in conjunction with a bending jig, could make a project like yours very feasible to do in PVC. However, I think the market gardeners prefer to use EMT because it is stronger than PVC, and easier to bend.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-598-quick-hoops-low-tunnel-benders.aspx
I am also interested in dome structures for use in gardening projects. A dome could be the basis for a gazebo or an arbor or a support structure for training vines and other plants up on. I suppose you could use small domes as shelters for your plants. Dome structures have been adapted for use as greenhouses.
http://www.buycheapr.com/us/result.jsp?ga=us23&q=geodesic+greenhouse
I know that some smaller domes have been made from EMT. I suppose it is possible that a dome could be made from PVC, although I don't recall seeing that done. Well, when you get time, keep us informed about the progress of your project.
ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
Thanks for those links! It sounds as if the Pipe Viper leaves some kind of spring steel behind to hold the PVC bent: I think that, without heat, it would HAVE to spring back.
>> However, I think the market gardeners prefer to use EMT because it is stronger than PVC, and easier to bend.
That tip convinces me to use EMT, at least at first. It didn't look any more expnsive than PVC.
I saw a jig from Johnnies Seeds for bend large numbers of EMT hoops very fast, but I can;t get to that part of their website right now. However, it was expensive.
Corey
Corey,
"I saw a jig from Johnnies Seeds for bending large numbers of EMT hoops very fast, but I can't get to that part of their website right now."
That was in one of the links I gave above, this one:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-598-quick-hoops-low-tunnel-benders.aspx
"...However, it was expensive."
It expensive, because it is meant for market gardeners who are bending a lot of EMT for low tunnel crop protectors. You could probably make a homemade version of it out of a few scraps of plywood and a jig saw. However, I think with a little trial-and-error, you could use one of those inexpensive small-radius EMT benders to bend a larger radius by bending the EMT a little, moving the bender a little, bend the EMT a little more, etc. There are a lot of sources for short-radius EMT benders.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22EMT+bender%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images
"It sounds as if the Pipe Viper leaves some kind of spring steel behind to hold the PVC bent: I think that, without heat, it would HAVE to spring back.
"
You don't leave the Pipe Viper behind. It is a "Slinky-style" steel spring that you pull out of the bent PVC after you complete the bend. Its purpose is simply to prevent the PVC pipe from collapsing at the bend while you are doing the bend. You are instructed to "overbend" the PVC somewhat, to compensate for the tendency of cold PVC pipe to "spring back" some after the bend. It is kind of a trial-and-error process: bend, let go of it to see how much spring-back occurs, bend some more, let go again, etc. Professional PVC installers probably learn to do just the right amount of overbend on the first try. The Pipe Viper spring does not hold the PVC in place, so when you get the bend right with it in place, you can extract it, using the chain or wire that is attached to its end, and the PVC will continue to hold its shape, at least for a while.
Like I mentioned previously, I was amazed that you could cold-bend PVC. You could probably also the use the Pipe Viper for bending heated PVC pipe. The Pipe Viper is probably much more convenient to use than packing the pipe with sand to keep it from collapsing while making a hot bend. If I were planning to bend a lot of PVC for some craft projects, which I am not, I would probably invest in a PVC Bendit.
http://www.pvcworkshop.com/bendpipe.htm
http://www.pvcbendit.com/
The PVC BendIt® combines the flexible spring action to prevent tube collapse with an internal heater to make the bends with internal heat. They cost considerably more than Pipe Vipers.
ZM
(as always, not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
This message was edited Feb 13, 2012 3:06 PM
>> I was amazed that you could cold-bend PVC.
Me, too! I bet it weakens the PVC, but I don't really know. I saved all of the links but only followed a few.
I'll start with the EMT, and just figure out a low-cost method for bending a few lengths, no matter how time-consuming or awkward. For several of my beds, I want an 'asymetrical' design, with the peak quite near one of the rasied bed walls. I need to throw rain off onto the downhill side. A big part of "as soon as the soil can worked" where I live is getting soil to be dry enough that it isn't "clay pudding". Then I want to keep the whole bed warm enough for seed to sprout instead of rot, until I have a few things coming up.
Once I have that, I might start some low things that are cold tolerant once established - like Brassicas like Bok Choy - litterally 8 weeks sooner than I would otherwise, and only put a tent over the growing plants for unusually cold nights. All of February and March are almost warm enough for many things, yet April and May might get colder than most things really like.
My little bamboo (Fargesia rufa) is still imitating tall grass rather than flagpoles or even fishing rods. And it's going to be 4 years old this year! I was hoping to use those at least for 'purlins' - not very load-bearing but provideing stability and anti-flapping between the stronger hoops.
>> You can also bend acrylic tube and sheet materials like ABS and polycarbonate
The PVC BendIt might also help bend clear corrugated materials (polycarbonate?). I was thinking of trying to make a coldframe from one of those. However, I'm guessing that more than half of it needs to be wood or other good insulator, to RETAIN overnight, the heat that was collected during the day.
That name always bothers me: why call it a "cold frame" if you built it to collect and hold solar heat? I know the reason is that they aren't artificialy heated, with electricity, gas or decomposing manure, but it still bothers me.
Corey,
"The PVC BendIt might also help bend clear corrugated materials (polycarbonate?)."
You could probably bend corrugated sheets along one of the ridges or valleys, but I think it would be really hard to bend corrugated materials "against the grain".
I have had bad luck with acrylic. I made a squirrel barrier from it for a bird feeder support pole, and it broke in a storm. I replaced that with a polycarbonate version, which worked just fine. Acrylic is a little more "water clear" than polycarbonate, but polycarbonate is a lot more durable. Acrylic can crack almost like glass, but I have never had polycarbonate do that.
I think you could make a cold frame from wood with stapled on plastic sheeting, poly something that is available in the Home stores. If you felt the need, you could put on more than one layer of the poly film.
The under-performance of your little bamboo is interesting. I wonder if it could be a nutritional deficiency. Rice farmers routinely use fertilizers that include soluble silicates. Silicon is not a required nutrient for plant growth, but plants readily take it up and use it, if it is available. They will actually use quite a lot of it. Silicon strengthens cell walls and other plant structures and, in the case of rice, the absence of available silicon causes weak stems. Rice stem breakage results in significant crop losses. So it pays to buy silicon for the rice. Bamboo? I dunno.
In the case of zinnias, silicon can enhance disease resistance, and I routinely include some soluble potassium silicate in the dilute nutrients that I use on my indoor plants. And, of course, the plants can use the potassium. Just don't use too much potassium silicate, because it is somewhat alkaline. I haven't experimented with potassium silicate as a foliar feed. I probably should do that. My outdoors zinnias could benefit from stronger stems in these Kansas winds, and I have no idea how much silicon, if any, is available in soluble form in my garden soil.
ZM
This message was edited Feb 14, 2012 10:37 AM
Interesting thought about the silicates. "Clay" soil might or might not offer sufficient silicate - I don't know what kind of clay I have.
I would be quick to assume the crummy soil it has under it was a problem, but reading suggests that the roots won't go deep in bad OR good soil. I do provide a little fertilizer like 10-10-10 or 'lawn food' higer in nitrogen, and water it.
But I've never bought or added a silicate-rich plant food ... hmm.
Since it is at the top of a slight slope, and in a 6" raised bed above that grade, I think it has fair drainage despite the clay.
It is in rather a lot of shade - there are trees here and there, one quite close, and a Rhododendron taller than it is quite close. (I have too many big plants in a small yard!
I've been hoping that "it's just young yet", and "I'm just impatient". But it has had almost 4 years since it was in a 1/2 gallon pot from Home Depot. At least there is hope: the culms are a little longer each year: perhaps 4-6" longer. becuase of the gracefull "droop", it is not getting much taller!
If the culms keep getting longer and thicker, eventually I will be able to use them as weak hoops, without bending them!
I found a photo of him shortly after he came out of his pot, and it seems that he's only 2 1/2 years old, not almost 4!
I must have planted him around July 2009. So there is hope yet. I'll look into a silicate supplement, maybe the farm co-op in Snohomish would stock it.
Corey,
I purchased my potassium silicate online. The brand name product I first used was DynaGro's Pro-TeKt
http://www.dyna-gro.com/003.htm
http://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_74&products_id=63
There are a variety of silicon nutrient products
http://www.hydroponics.net/i/132135
http://www.potsil.com/appendix.html
http://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_reviews&cPath=1_46_37&products_id=68
Here is some more information, including some on silicon nutrition.
http://www.silicon-nutrition.info/Latest_news.html
"I would be quick to assume the crummy soil it has under it was a problem, but reading suggests that the roots won't go deep in bad OR good soil."
But the shallow roots will get more benefit from good soil.
"Since it is at the top of a slight slope, and in a 6" raised bed above that grade, I think it has fair drainage despite the clay."
When they speak of "drainage" in relation to soil, they aren't talking about the slope of the surface. In this context, "drainage" refers to the porosity of the soil. If it were me, I would lift that bamboo from that bed, save the porous looking soil in the top layer, remove the clay to a dept of a foot or more, and replace it with some porous soil. Perhaps sand or a sandy loam.
Or, even better, I would increase the height of the raised bed by a foot or more and fill it with a porous growing medium. I would place the bamboo back into that environment. Clay does a good job of retaining water, which is the opposite of drainage, and clay excludes oxygen, which, as you know, is needed by plant roots as much or more than water. Also, that picture shows a rather light green color of the leaves, suggesting one or more nutrient deficiencies. I think that bamboo needs a lot more than silicon.
ZM
I have thought about prying it out and digging down and amending, but then I would also have to deepen the drainage trench - the slope is very shallow, and the clay is so imprevious that anything below grade becomes a permanent puddle if not trenched.
I will probably just keep widening the tiny bed and making the peripehry a little deeper than the center, especially if I extend it "downslope" more than along the sidewalk.
The light green MIGHT be partly due to having just been transplanted from the pot, but you may be right that even shallow roots need some decent soil.
I found a more recent photo (F. rufa at 2 years of age).
And a shot of what my soil looks like when I dig down, but don;t trench the water away.
Corey,
I can see that you do have a problem with that impervious underlying clay. The more recent photo of the bamboo looks pretty good. You are making ingenious use of pavers as edgers.
ZM
Thanks, I like being able to tweak a bed as easily as moving furniture.
If I still have enoguh energy and cash after retiring, I look forward to lots of outdoor fiddling.
I'm sure the builders bulldozed away anything remotely resembling topsoil ... or sub-soil. Those geniuses did lay down some drainage pipe (very shallowly burried), but haste and ease were all they cared about. I wiondered why the eixsting (4"?) drainage pipe didn't drain. So I followed it downslope, scraping off the covering of heavy clay and rocks.
After dropping perhaps 6-8" along the length of my dfriveway, it looped UP AND OVER a big tree root, so that a length of the "downslope" pipe was higher than any "upslope" part. I would sneer at thyem for forgetting that water only runs downhill, but forgetting that was what led me to create my little mud-wallow shown above.
Man! That took DAYS to drain!
But now I wish I still had a patch that wet, becuase I've tried to grow a semi-aquatic sub-tropical "Water Spinach" (Ipomoea aquatica, "Water Convolvulus", "Swamp Cabbage", phakbung, kangkung, "kong syin tsai"), an Asian vegetable of many names.
A second startegy for the bamboo is to top-dress with MORE compost and manure and 10-10-10 than I did during the last two years. Those products you gave a link to look affordable, though I always hate to pay for the shipping.
Corey,
As an alternative to building a cover for your plants, you might want to consider purchasing a ready-to-use product like one or more of the following:
http://www.gardeners.com/Pest-Control-Pop-Up-Covers/VegetableGardening_Accessories,40-227RS,default,cp.html
http://www.gardeners.com/Plant-Protection-Tents/40-219RS,default,pd.html
http://www.gardeners.com/Plant-Protection-Frost-Covers/40-251RS,default,pd.html
That last item is an accessory for the middle item. Some of my indoor zinnias are coming into bloom now.
ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
Thanks, ZM, but I'm both too cheap and too stubburn to buy ready-made if I can improvise or do without. It will take me several years to try enough things to comnvicnde myself that I can't, or it isn;t worth my time, to make frost protection myself.
Hi all,
Some of my second generation "trumpet petaled" zinnias are now in bloom. Hybridization and recombination have added several colors in addition to the original red. I have more seedlings entering the budding stage, so I should have the opportunity to observe some additional recombinations of the trumpet-petal genes in the next few weeks. More later. I feel relatively confident that the trumpet-petal genes are embedded in my zinnia gene pool. I say "genes", because I have seen repeated evidence that the trumpet petals can present themselves in a variety of forms.
ZM
I like the first one & congratulations.
Thanks, Lucy,
I usually cull single zinnias, but occasionally I see a single zinnia that for one reason or another seems "right" to me. Actually, a lot of the Whirligig strain of zinnias are single, and they have the appearance of a daisy or a gaillardia and they can look fine in the landscape or garden. And some people might consider my echinacea flowered zinnias to be single.
On a somewhat different note, this picture shows a current single zinnia that is a recombinant with trumpet-petaled genes, and I kind of like it. The individual petals remind me a bit of pitcher plants, although that little beetle peeking out of one pitcher petal kind of proves that this isn't a carnivorous plant. I'm not quite sure what I want to call this zinnia. But it does pique my curiosity as to what surprises I can expect next in the recombinations with trumpet petal genes.
ZM
I had to enlarge the picture to see the beetle. amazing flower.
It has since put out a lot more flowers. It's a single, so I am not too wild about it, despite its unusual petals. I will save seeds from it, though, because some of the progeny might somehow be better.
My zinnia did not do well this year and this is and only little off thread, I had a huge plum bloom much like where ZM is talking about scabious rounded forms. That bloom was as big as a football mum. Zinnia are wonderful with there many forms and colors/