Apropos of Nothing v.17

ArrrrrGGGGHHhhhh - Pet Peeve, diagnosing kids!!! I do know that sometimes it is really important to find out why kids behaviours are doing one thing or another, but goodness how I scrunch up under the rigid developmental bench marks we seem to expect of children these days! And when they don't meet them we diagnosize them - generally as autistic! Goodness! They are children, they are all different.

Also, I do appreciate that there is a 'norm' for developement - but it is only a norm. The middle, a rough guide of expectation, a spectrum in which a child will fall. Children develop at different paces and in different directions and at different speeds and as different things click different things together for them. I honestly wish diagnosing did not become so accessible, it has made us intolerant of 'waiting and seeing' what happens. It just so often strikes me as a means of distancing outselves from a child's individuality. Sorry GG, this isn't lashing out at you, it is just something I come across ALL THE BL%%$y time in work - people who have 'been diagnosed.....', and blow me if it just isn't a matter of no one bothering to attune to this individual's aptitude at the time of diagnosis. Sounds to me that this kid is finding a way of making sense of the physical world (abstract to physical - 'why?' to understanding) through loving science, and now applying it to himself (desire to mechanic response - wish to do something to working out the means of doing it).

I have always loved the definition of ANALYSIS - break it down to its component parts. We so often miss out teaching children the concept of 'process' - the actual act of idea, to thought, to conceptualization, to action - we really need to go back to that idea, help children to find themselves, and stop over using Autistic diagnosis. I think this boys talking through, step by step, makes perfect sense - he is actually experiencing process, the process of feeling his body do what he asks it to - (think about the first time you drove a car with a clutch) - go easy on him.

Oh, dear, that was much too much, wasn't it. Boy, this riles me. Apologies. Just too close to work. I'm going back out to weed now. I'll return when I have cleared another area - apologies.

Laurie, what is it that you do professionally? Context might be helpful. I have always found it useful to see whether symptom clusters suggest a syndrome, because often intervention depends on diagnosis. Otherwise you're constantly reinventing the wheel, and most parents and teachers don't have the expertise or experience to deal solely with symptoms as they arise; they're not as familiar with learning styles and the specific teaching modalities associated with each one.

There are also situations in which waiting and seeing is the wrong approach because the earlier the problem is diagnosed, the sooner remediation or support can be offered. Sometimes that can decrease the severity of the problem, or at least get help for the child and parent before frustration sets in and secondary emotional reactions can become established.

Just my two cents, but since I haven't walked in your shoes your take on it may be spot on for your circumstances.

Thank you, ladies, I appreciate your input about this. It does help to hear different points of view. This is exactly why I love this forum and all of you.

I just know that we will have an awesome time together studying this world.

BTW it is an absolutely glorious morning!

GG - I am trained as a Psychoanalyst (MA, PhD, clinical trainings) - although my practice is very mixed.

And as I said in my first rant, I do appreciate that diagnosis and intervention are important, and I agree, catching true disorders as early as possible is enormously helpful - but I find descriptions of Autism, especially Asperger, are so quickly used today when what we are really looking at is a situation of a child, or even an adult, who is just trying to make sense of a very complicated world, in their own time - and during that time, it can feel very frustrating.



This message was edited Jul 31, 2010 3:22 PM

Laurie, I'm a psychologist too, but MA and school-psych certified. Worked first with the developmentally disabled, then at a psychiatric hospital for adults, and lastly in a school setting. I can see your frustration regarding pigeon-holing people, and have definitely run into Autism as the diagnosis du jour, but I have still found it helpful. My DS has ADHD and I've had a lot of experience dealing with that diagnosis (and misdiagnosis) too.

But I suppose I come from the opposite end of the spectrum - if you can give a teacher or parent an appropriate label for the behavior they're seeing in a child, it can stop them from condemning the child as lazy or contrary or simply not interested in the work he or she is given to do, and suddenly the child's life becomes a lot easier. Maybe it's not that way in the UK, but it's definitely that way here.

Oh, er, hi, Jan! Yes, it is a gorgeous day here, too, although it's still quite warm in the garden. I think I have lost my battle with the squash bugs, and that's disheartening, but my tomatoes are coming along nicely and I have loads of cukes.

Well that is sure a complicated issue. I equate it to something like migraine headaches. The headache is surprisingly simular but the causes are from many different things. My son was what was called hyper and back then, they wanted to blame sugar. And still many blame sugar. My son was way worse from foods. Preservatives and colorings were the main issues. I kept his food somewhat controlled at home but allowed him to do whatever outside the home. Birthday parties were the worst, the cake, frosting and ice cream that had chemicals in it, he would be wound up for at least 3 days. I did not want him to feel "odd" so I just talked to him and he understood as much as a child could, but he still ate the cake.

We tend to believe what we know from past, I think it still has a lot to do with food and I can attest when you have a family, job and home to care for, the home cooking and monitoring of the diet is soooo difficult. Easier to issue meds. I was offered meds for him many times and a couple teachers insisted. I refused. We watched diet and I bought a house across from a very nice park. When he was wound up we would exercise and it worked really well. But its a lot of work amd took time and patience. My girls were so easy, they would watch tv, play nicely, he would be climbing up on the roof, jumping out windows, hurling across barriers with his bike. He is okay now, he understands his body and has never taken any meds for it, he has a real need to exercise. He is 36 now and always will have a high energy level. I will always remember one time my mom was visiting and went into the kitchen to get something to drink. She nearly had a heart attack as he was 3 and sitting on top of the refrigerator in the dark kitchen. We never discovered how he got up there but often in the middle of the night he would be sitting up there.

My granddaughter was diagnoised with ADD. I don't think she really has it, her diet is awful and home life is chaos. I think hers is from environment and diet,. But my daughter has had her on meds since she was 7. She is now 13, and still on meds. My daughter is a chlld specialsit at day care and has lots of schooling but does not see what her home is really like. She ignores the kids till they misbehave then she yells. They behave fine with me, we have a little set to when I visit, grandma means what she says, then they are fine. I pay attention to them, talk to them and play games with them. My daughter is social and has lots of friends coming and going, music on, the house is noisy and like a circus. Everytime I talk to her about it, she tells me she wants to be a "fun" mom, not like I was. She decided to be "friends' with her kids and it is her decision but hard to watch.

A sensitive issue indeed. Schools tend to want children who are easy to manage, I don't blame them, but it can really harm a child, they are not robots.

Rebecanne, we did the Feingold diet and it was very helpful; yellow dye seemed to be the worst for our son. We also tried a bunch of other things; he was very allergic to various molds, too. But finally when he became an adult he really needed some help with impulse control and focusing, so medication has worked fairly well for him in that regard. Each person has to find his own answer.

It must be very difficult for you to watch your daughter's lifestyle and see what effect it's having on your GD, especially when she twists the knife and tells you she wants to be a "fun" mom, not like you! The problem is that children have only one set of parents to set limits and provide structure, but lots of other "fun" people in their lives who can be freer with the child because they don't have the responsibility for discipline.

It's tough.

I am once again so behind here - have been too busy to be able to enjoy reading through all the comments.

A big congratulations to Sofer! What a lucky kid to have him as a grandpa. I can just imagine the little guy with his first fishing pole - and digging for worms. People still dig for worms, right? Or do fishermen and fisherwomen all use those fancy colorful things that look like works of art?

Laurie, I agree with you about kids and not putting them into diagnostic cubbies quite so quickly. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to climb out of that cubbie once the child has been diagnosed. The youngest of my 7 kids was just plain strange, and believe me, when you have so many kids, you know who's strange and who's not. Now Joe is 24, got 1380 on his SATs, graduated from Berkeley with honors, was the president of his fraternity (not sure that's a plus), is in grad school there, and working as a research biologist in neuroscience. And I used to shake my head in awe because he was so different. It was suggested several times that he be tested for whatever, but we decided against it. He learned differently than the others but he learned. I still remember when he was in the 3rd grade and they had to do a report on a famous person and he announced at dinner that he had chosen Bull Halsey. We all looked blankly at each other because we had no idea who Bull H was. Then I began to worry that he liked military-type things too much. He was also very social, so I wasn't too concerned. Anyway, I like when kids are allowed to be themselves, and are proud to be themselves. The best thing we did with our kids that influenced their education and brains was to travel with them. They knew early that people live differently all over the globe, and that ethnocentric thinking is dangerous. That's my rant!

The honeymooners return today, so I think I will stock some fresh fruit and nibbles in their kitchen so they don't have to think about too soon.

Now on to read the other threads!

Ohh, Sofer, be careful what you wish for in terms of Gemini! LOL! All depends on the rising sign and where the moon is placed in terms of how grounded they can be, right? LOL!

Yes, Pony, Pix is getting rid of plants. Pix is REALLY getting rid of plants.

Re kids with aspberger's or autism, be sure to read Horse Boy, which was also made into a movie/documentary. Really interesting point of view and experience. Also a good book. The guy really went out on a limb to bring healing to his son.

Here are a couple of photos of the yard I've been helping with for over a year. The wedding is finally over! Now I can focus on my own yard.

And it was a beautiful day.

My favorite nook. Get a load of the color 'echo' with the bench and the Japanese maple. The bench used to belong to us. Now it belongs in their yard because it just looks perfect there and they will use it, whereas we used it to pile junk on.

Looking the other direction. This maple tree is just a glorious tree.

Kind of blurry, but you can see the flower petals in the air. My son created a 'gun' that shot rose petals above the head of the crowd just as the couple started down the aisle at the end of the ceremony. It was a bit hit.

My banana made a splash on the patio by the bar.

Last one. The couple lights a candle down by the formal rose garden. At the party afterward, Mike and I were on the other side of the yard, but I understand from the groom's mother that this area of the yard saw a lot of 'use' after sundown. We had a fabulous time. It took my feet two days to recover from all the dancing.

What a beautiful yard, and I love that bench and the way it is color-coordinated with the maple. You must be exhausted, though!

Never heard of Horse Boy; I'll look it up. Sounds a bit like A Child Called Noah, though.

How wonderful to have a son who understands how cool it is to shoot rose petals!

What a gorgeous wedding!! And with our Pixy to do the garden they could not have had a more lovely setting.

Ditto on the cool rose petal cascade masterminded by Pixy's son!

I sure know about having a different sort of child, my only one, but I have spent enough time with many other people's children to know he was listening to his own music in life (although they are all incredibly unique human beings). It has been both heart-breaking and a joy, more painful in the last few years as I have seen him struggle mightily with not knowing how to integrate himself into this crazy life and yet wanting to become independent and find his way.

This message was edited Jul 31, 2010 4:28 PM

MauryHill, I only have the perspective of a mother with my own kids. I think teachers have a much better take on these things because they can be more unbiased. It's always interesting to hear my teacher son-in-law's observations about kids. He picks up on so many things! With my own kids, I just marvel at how different they are from each other.

Pix, what lucky people they are to have you working on their yard for the wedding. Lovely.

It's true I observe a lot of different things at school, with kids in a larger social setting, but I do believe parents know the absolute most about their kids and I need that partnership. I have been on both sides of the table, sometimes dealing with a teacher who could not see my child very well, as he could be difficult to deal with in the school setting, often off in his own private world or completely freaked out by the swirl of activity and motion around him. A teacher like your son-in-law, who keeps himself open to observing the real life of children makes all the difference for children like mine and others with different unique ways of being.

The most difficult thing regarding the "diagnosis" issue and the myriad developmental delay, learning disability, etcetera labels is that it is so hard to get children any kind of help in the school setting without an official reason, and they can sink into a spiral of defeat and disillusionment if they are not getting the help they need. I agree with Laurie about the over-much pigeonholing and intolerance of human diversity of development. I hate the forced march we are more and more putting children through. It could be different, simply with more people who really care there to help kids, all kids, not just ones who've been tagged with a label. I'm tutoring a little guy this Summer who needs a huge amount of one on one time. His name came up often in staff meetings from pre-school on, and it is true he can be very hard to deal with, blurts out bad words, pushes people, and loses concentration in the blink of an eye. But he has an amazing perspective in his artwork, is fiercely loyal to his friends (though it is very hard for him to make friends), and I genuinely like him. A community volunteer in my room found that hard to believe, but I really do, and I also see how hard his family works just to keep a roof over their head. You have to care or you can't teach.
Now I better get off my soapbox. I don't want to be whining about my job.

This message was edited Jul 31, 2010 7:05 PM

I have a customer who has a very unique child. He is 2 1/2, but he is a huge child. Chunky and very tall, so you think he is older but has the gait of a toddler. And when he runs it looks odd, like he should be more coordinated than he is, he looks so much older. He wanted to water the plants so I gave him the hose and he said, more wawa. I told him that was all there was, I had it turned down. He looked at it and then followed the hose to the faucett and turned it. Then he checked and found the regulator near the nozzle and turned it up. I thought that was amazing for that age. Then I told him, I like your boots. And he said, "boots, b o o t s". Mom says he asks "spell" for words and remembers how to spell them. He is a whirlwind, much like my boy was. I told her she was going to have trouble with him in school, he is so active, when they leave, I have to rest. But he is off the scale intelligent. I cannot imagine getting him to sit as a desk. Perhaps he will calm down, but I think that is just he way he is. I told her to be careful if they wanted to give him medication, its a fine line, calm them enough to fit into a school situation or deal with behavior problems. I chose the behavior problems, and spent lots of time with teachers, some helpful some frustrated.

Pixy that picture of the nook is just awesome. What is that large leaf plant directly behind the bench? Is it rogersia? Its stunning. What a beautfiul setting, my yard should look exactly like that.

rebecca, that's a rhododendron you're seeing. It is a variety with particularly large leaves.
I wish my yard looked like that, too! LOL! Their grass stays green all summer. On the other hand, it's a swamp in the winter. Not sure what is worse.

That's the yard I visited and left with my arms full of daylilies, isn't it? It sure looks nice!

My 16 year old stepson has Asperger's Syndrome. He wasn't diagnosed until he was 9 or 10. I wish we'd known what was up with him earlier, it might have been easier for us to figure out how to handle him. he's still very difficult to deal with much of the time, but at least we know how to approach certain issues that stumped us before. He has been on meds a few times, but none of them were really helpful for him, so now he doesn't take any. I do think meds are overused on "differently wired" kids these days.

Pixy
Wonderful garden! Looks like something from a dream. Love the bench and maple. Hope you had fun.

Pixy, loved the nook and all. So glad your son was able to have a hand in the celebration.

Thanks for the book titles.

I appreciate everyone's perspectives about labels and diagnoses. We just want to be able to provide resources and experiences for all our grandkids. I do appreciate teachers who reach out to all types of learners.

I loved Horse Boy. Could not believe what that father did for his son and what both parents went thru. Just amazing.

Pixy, you need to wait and thin beds just before a roundup!

Well, do you guys want to have a "mini" Roundup here some time this month or next? Or we could have a girls' only spa day here. Hot tubbing, massage chair, wine, hor duerves, and plants (of course).

Well if there is a round up when I start pulling things out, that is great, but I just need to get moving on it. Mike and I have a plan for getting out of Lakewood in the coming years and I need to get this yard to the point where someone besides me can care for it. The way it is now, the house is not sellable or rentable due to the extensive gardens and the work they require. It's going to take me a couple of years to get it down to a mild roar and still maintain some of the plantings I love. I'm still working on cutting things back and making decisions at this point so it's not like things are languishing in the compost bin yet. LOL!

Yes, pony, that is the daylily yard.

Pixydish, why would your extensive gardens make your place unsellable? Of course I haven't seen them, but I'd think that they would be a selling point, with the understanding that the buyer could always make major changes anyway, or obliterate the whole thing and put in a swimming pool or a tennis court, for that matter! I agree that renting it would be a different story, though.

I keep thinking that I need to cut back the area of my potager, because it's an awful lot to take care of and I plant so intensively that I really don't need that much room.

Most people get overwhelmed by the gardens at my place, even other gardeners sometimes (mostly because they know how much work the gardens are). The comment I almost always get from people is 'how do you take care of all of this?'. It's a telling comment because it's really a full time job the way I have it set up.. Much of that is because I've never met a plant I don't like and I like to grow them all. If I would allow the most successful plants to simply grow over the others and the beds to balance out naturally, it would be much less work. There are a couple of beds where I've done that, like the hydrangea border in the back, and I rarely have to do anything to those. I deadhead the hydrangeas in early spring, mulch, water, and that's about it. Weed control is another issue altogether. I have a large place in terms of being in the city, 3/4 acre, and all but a small piece is landscaped with flowering shrubs and perennials.

Here's a photo of my front border this year. It's finally coming together, LOL! Can anyone identify that purple flower in the front? It's a great color but it's taking over the world. I'll post a closer photo.

The stems are square, it's about 3 feet tall and it runs fast! I hate to pull it all out but I'm going to have to in order to keep it from taking over the bed. It's a transplant from somewhere else so I never had a tag.

It is pretty. I will take some if you are composting it. I can add it to my stack of things to plant!

Do you need pots? I still have a ton!!!

If anyone is interested in a "mini" get together, let me know. Out of towners are welcome to spend the night.

It's a beautiful border, Pixy. I can see why people would be concerned about upkeep after your explanation.

I wonder whether your plant is purple loosestrife? If it is, it's highly invasive and a serious problem around here.

Pix, I would think you gardens are a real plus! Someone might want to buy it just because of the garden. If you wanted to rent the house you could always pay for a gardener to maintain it. I think it's beautiful, even though I have not seen it in person. Where do you guys want to end up? I'm suspecting near your boat & on the water.

Pixy, I would take some of that invasive plant to see if I can use it to crowd out my buttercup!

I can't give this plant away until I know for sure what it is. If it turns out to be another form of purple loosestrife, I'll just have to kill it. I've wondered if that is what it might be. That's a serious problem around here, too. It may be a relative. The leaves are different, they have a serrated edge, and the flower form is different. Also, it does not have a large crown and is fairly shallow rooted. The stems are, however, square like purple loosestrife. And I pull it out regularly. I can't give it away until I know what it is. It's very pretty, though.

Edited to say it's possible this is in the mint family, although the leaves have no smell. The leaves are hairy rather than downy. It spreads in a mint like way. I'll likely post on the plant ID forum if no one here has seen this before.

This message was edited Aug 2, 2010 10:51 AM

Pixy, it looks like betony, which is a member of the lambs ear clan, mint family. Here's a photo for comparison, Stachys monnieri 'Hummelo'.

Wow- good call, it looks exactly like it.

If that's what it is, mine behaves fairly well, with a slow spreading clumping habit. I've chunked bits off for others and haven't heard any horror stories back. Pixy may however have the 'vulgare' cultivar which are often more aggressive.

Vulgar things so often are....