What divides your yard from your gardens, I need a clue.

Is there a good way to keep grass, dandelions, and in my yard a pea from invading my flower or tree wells. I know there is a lot of products out there, and have tried a few with little success. Much of my yard has nothing right now, and I have grass stalks rising high above the flowers in some places.

Ah its sounds like a dream.

My husband spreads grass seed around liberally. He just can't grow the stuff. He plants...he prays...he waters..he fertilizes --you get the picture. BUT his grass grows on top of the thick rubber sheeting material that lines the pond.....it grows on top of the mulch and pea gravel that I have placed to keep the weeds down..

If there is a way to prevent grass and weeds from infiltrating our flower beds... it would be a true miracle indeed and cause for all the companies that produce products/barriers/controls to keep this from happening to weep!

I suffer from the same problem, and can only tell the results so far of what I have attempted. I have 2 main issues, the grass roots coming in from below, and the weed seeds blown in from above. The latter could be kept under control
through diligence in most cases, though difficult to get those grassy invaders out from the middle of a clump of daylilies.

For the grass root invaders I have tried:

5 inch garden edging dug in almost to the top edge: Works fine for about 2 years, then the grass roots make their way underneath and it is tough to get them out without digging the whole thing back up.

Woodchip border with rocks on top: I hand weeded (painstaking) all around the garden bed and put a layer of wood chips on top of the cleared area, a strip about 6 inches wide. This works for about a year. The grass does start creeping in again, but you can move individual rocks to rogue out the invading roots. My wood chips now need to be replaced, which will involve moving all the rocks over and putting them back.

Weed block fabric: Eventually the roots of my trees and shrubs got all tangled in it, weed roots got enmeshed in it, and it was a pain in the a%% to remove. I would only use this as an underlayment for pathways or as temporary weed suppression in a cleared area that is not planted yet. I have seen it used as weed suppression for annual crops on a small farm.

Cardboard covered with woodchips for larger areas, like around my blueberry bushes: The grass was kept down for a season, but the buttercup loved it and has swooped in from the sides and is hard to dig out from between the chips (I used the cheaper, chunkier chips, the finer grade might have been better in the long run).

I am seriously considering ordering a roll of 30 inch deep bamboo barrier, cutting it in half to make 15 inch barrier, and dig trenches around all my beds to install it. This would be an arduous task, perhaps worth it in the long run IF it works. A total pain if the grass goes under it anyway after all that. This would be pretty pricey. I have looked into a company that sells it near Portland. You get a deal if you buy a lot of rolls at once, but more than I would need....and then there is the expense of shipping. So....I dream about this option while digging out grass roots once again, but have not yet picked up the phone, credit card in hand.

Trenching and mulching is the best thing that works for me. I cut a fairly deep edge to all my beds in early spring (usually widening them a bit), scoop the dirt up and into the beds, then mulch heavily before things start coming up. This doesn't stop the grass cold, but seems to slow the invasion a bit. Then I weed on a rotating basis. Very ocassionally everything looks good - more often one or two beds looks great and the others are in various stages of disarray. I don't think I would truly enjoy a no-maintenance yard though, so all is good.

I have a friend who had cement curbs poured all around the yard. I'm sure that's spendy, but it looks nice.

I did see an interesting treatment in the garden of another friend the other day. She had some borders that her daughter had done several years ago. They were irregular, but that just made them more organic looking. They had laid a plastic lawn border material and dug a trench behind (on the bed side of) it. Then they poured cement and her daughter laid stones in it to make it look more like aggregate. It wasn't very wide - maybe two inches.

My neighbors use metal lawn border material. It does a better job of staying put where you set it.

I haven't found a good solution yet. I'm still slowly moving the edges back into the lawn to make the beds bigger.

I have had limited success with a product called "HI-Yield Grass Killer". The main drawback is that you should apply it while the grass is short and it is still young whereas I only decide I have a problem way later than that. I also line some of my beds with concrete rectangles-I think they are 8" by 12" or so. They are fairly inexpensive, don't look too tacky, and can be moved easily if something gets underneath. Their width does help keep the grass out and they don't bother the lawn mower particularly. I had poured concrete curbing in a previous house and loved it. I have it at the house in EWA but the particular type of weedy grass over there spreads by deep runners and is a terrible problem. They do keep the lawn grass out of the beds, however, and look great.

I have my beds lined with cobblestone paver type things, set flush with the lawn so I can mow all the way to the edge. They work pretty well with occasional rounds of hand weeding the advance troops that make it across the line. The trench and mulch style is working really well in my parents garden and in my brother's - but that's too much edging/mowing work for me.

We go for old-school border trenching like bonehead. We have a V-shaped hoe that DH uses. Not perfect, needs to be redone periodically, but price is right, acts as a water run-off trench as well, and because it's lower than the beds probably helps water get to the roots of the plants in the beds. It's also pretty easy to expand the garden beds-dig a new trench where the edge will be, excavate on the bed side to get rid of the lawn (Or lasagna)on the inside, add nice fresh compost, etc, and you're good to go...

Our first attempt was narrow brown and black bendable plastic with no lip. Didn't stay, then we tried the hefty rolls of icky plastic stuff with a fat raised rim- not deep enough, and where it shows is ugly-and plastic. Then we replaced it with a brick border in the front- very pretty edging, looks great with moss on it, can roll the mower along the edge to get right to the edge of the lawn, but spendy, spendy-and not deep enough....so, to the trench we turned, and what we'll probably stick with.

What I've done this year is use some tin corrugated roofing which my husband cut in 18" wide segments, about 4' long, and I laid them on my 18" garden paths. I have landscape cloth down, with woodchips over them, but after a while the earth sifts back into that area and it's a perfect medium for weeds and crab grass. The roofing panels cover the paths and kill the weeds, but I can still walk on them. I've been moving them around once they've each done the job in one area. It's not perfect but it's easier than getting down on my hands and knees and weeding!

Yes, paths are a problem for me too. I haven't quite resolved that one-and I also hate weeding them. Because the weeds get walked on they're always the toughest to dig out.

Paths...give us your ideas and experiences with those as well. I am planning a memorial garden at some point and would like some sort of natural wandering pathway. Thinking perhaps sawdust or fine chips? My paths in my herb garden are grass, about lawnmower width. That actually works well but has to be mowed regularly or it gets unruly. I use a push mower for that.

I like finely ground wood chips for paths. Gravel with the right kind of rock can work nicely, but it always seems to jump into the beds and grass . . .

How thick do you lay down the chips, and do you put anything under them? I like that look and as this particular garden will be built on a natural slope, seems like it might make the most sense. I'm visualizing a pretty natural look - mostly daylilies and grasses, perhaps some iris. A bench tucked in somewhere. Julie's DL photos have been very inspiring, and I have found such intriguing names to go with the blooms that I am sure I can find one to 'fit' each of my loved ones.

I'd LIKE to make them a couple inches thick, but usually I'm trying to stretch a bag. You still may have some weed seeds pop up there but over time they usually start to give up.

You might throw in a Crocosmia to augment your plan. They have a grassy leaf and would complement the daylilies nicely.

I've started to use for daylilies, as well. They seem to do pretty well in our climate, once we grow them up enough to handle those darned slugs.

Yes to the crocosmias - I love the combo with daylily and have plenty clumps to divide.

Here's a crocosmia with a campanula in front of it.

My grass borders have vertical rocks dug down about 4 to 6" deep and then flat sandstone 8 to 14" wide. When the grass gets into the edge of the sandstone we spray it with roundup and then rake the dead stuff about a week later so just soil shown. Any crab or quack grass we hand dig to prevent runners. The sprayed grass on the left and the after look of the raked off dead stuff on the right.
As far as pathways I like to use wood chips and bark. The nitrogen suck of the wood keeps the grass and weeds down. Most of my pathways are rock through the garden.

Soferdig: the absolute master of the beautiful yet functional garden edge.

If I had access to a supply of stone like that I would be following your lead in a flash.

Marry Fred Flintstone. It just waits for crushing. LOL

Sofer, I am glad that you posted your edges. They truely were the most beautiful way to edge a flowerbed that I had ever seen. Bonus is that the mower can run right along them so no need for the weedeater!

Yeah because I have a "Dixie Chopper" that goes 10 MPH! A real man mower! Arrrrrrugh.
I have had my raised beds in for over 10 years and no grasses have invaded any of my beds. Though I do mow way before seeds are allowed on the grasses. The sandstone perimeter rock gets quite warm and will naturally prevent the root runners from going into the space underneath them. The only reason I spray is to give a nice perimeter for the grass. (My Karen is a neat freak and after vacuuming the rocks, grass, and beds) the grass must also be "neat". I love her and she compliments my building of our garden with the messes I make.

Hope y'all don't mind if I join the conversation. Pixydish invited me over, so here I am!

I couldn't figure out how to keep bermuda out of my gardens and it was driving me nuts, creeping into everything. I finally decided to get tough and drastic.

I got commercial-grade Round-up and tons of cardboard and newspapers and set about killing every inch of bermuda on my property. It took several years and lots of diligence and hard work, but eventually I turned my entire yard into a botanical garden--no lawn anywhere. My brother owns the properties on each side of me, and I use Roundup to keep his grass from creeping into my flowerbeds. It works beautifully. I know a lot of people don't like to use chemicals, but Roundup is safe is used properly. Anything used improperly can be unsafe. I couldn't maintain my gardens without Roundup. I buy the concentrate in 2.5 gal bottles at our Farmer's co-op. It only takes 4 oz per gallon and is much stronger than the stuff you get at Lowes. Saves me a bunch of time, frustration, and money.

All my paths are mulched. I like it that way; the paths are soft, not hard and ungiving like concrete. I spend most of my time working in my gardens, and when I had cobblestone paths, my feet and legs hurt terribly. Now, no pain!

One of the great things about mulched paths is as the mulch biodegrades, you then have some great soil there. When I get ready to mulch again, I scoop out a layer of good, black rich soil to put in my soil bin in the potting shed so I don't have to buy soil. Then I add fresh mulch. So my mulched paths are also my compost bins. LOL

Also, I never pay for mulch. I discovered years ago that tree trimmers will dump a load of fresh tree trimmings for FREE. Our landfill charges them about $40 a load to dump there; I let them dump here for free. They save me time and money and I save them time and money since I'm on the highway to the landfill.

But don't think you can't get in on the deal too. Tree trimmers are trimming all over the place. Call a few, tell them where you are located and ask if they'd drop you a load next time they're working out in that direction. If they don't have to go too far out of their way and it saves them money, they're very happy to do it. The tree trimmers here have big trucks, so each load is about the equivalent of 5 full size pickup truck loads. So you'll need a large spot that is accessible for them to dump in.

Also, tell them what you want the mulch for and stress nicely that you need it finely shredded, like when their blades are sharp. If their blades aren't sharp, you'll end up with shreds that are long, entangled, twining, twisted things that you can't shovel or pitchfork. I got a load like that once and had to just set fire to it; it was just a tangled mess.

People will tell you that you can't use fresh tree trimmings (mulch), that you must let it set for a year. And that's just not true. I've always used it fresh, here in the hot and dry Midsouth (near Memphis), and it's never burned a plant yet. I put it on about 6 or 7 inches thick. If I were putting it on about 2 ft thick, it might get hot enough to burn the plants; the big mulch pile gets so hot sometimes I'm afraid it will combust, but it never has. My plants love this fresh mulch.

Around here, we have lots of pine trees, and the tree trimmers I know are aware that I love pine mulch. So they will even call me and say, "I'm trimming some pines off Hwy 1. Do you want all this mulch?" YES!!! It's not unusual for me to go thru 20 commercial truckloads of mulch a year. They pile it up on the vacant lot my brother owns and then I wheelbarrow it where I need it.

Here's a picture of a section of my gardens taken in June of this year.

I hope I haven't bored y'all with my ramblings. If so, I'm sorry!

What a gorgeous garden - a real testament to how well your mulch works! And what a great way to get free mulch. Of course it helps to have a couple of vacant lots to store it, and I'll bet you've developed a very strong back with all those wheelbarrow loads. Just be careful about using Roundup near water; it definitely causes mutations in anuran (frog and toad) populations.

I don't use Roundup near water or food sources. I use it strictly around my gardens and not even close to my ponds. I'm also careful not to spray on windy days.

I love the free mulch. I couldn't afford to garden on this grand scale if I had to buy it. Of course our landfill will give it to you free, but I'm too lazy to drive over there and get it. It's so much easier to sit back like a Princess and have the guys deliver it. LOL Since the vacant lot is on the other side of my privacy fence, I can't see a fresh delivery, but I sure can smell the pine when I open a door. Mmmmmm mmmmm! That's an added bonus to getting the fresh stuff. :-)

Butterflychaser welcome! Yes you said a lot but "pride" is with each one of us on DG. You have a beautiful garden and your plantings are huge. I like the groupings you have done. I too stole wood chips, manure, sawdust, for about 10 years and now I can live on the compost (6 yrds) each year from the clean up of all of my plants and grass clippings.

Steve, does Karen know that you posted that picture? At least she has a nice rear view!

Butterfly, I too, have to use Roundup. But I never knew about a commercial grade of it. I am going to look for it. I have used Crossbow mixed with the regular Roundup. Your garden looks beautiful. Keep posting pictures! I am going to check into getting the mulched tree trimmings. We have a neighbor who owns a tree service. I had never even thought about asking for the mulch.

Lynn, if you have the room for him to dump it, he'll probably be delighted to bring you all you want. You can get several loads and let some decompose while you work on the others.

The Round-up I get is "Glyphosate" (the active ingredient in Round-Up). The Farmer's Co-op sells it in a 2.5 gal jug, which lasts me a year or two. They don't call it Round-up. And the price fluctuates as the gas prices do. A few years ago, it was $45. When I bought it last year, it was $85. This year, it's back down to $45 again.

Thanks for the compliments on my gardens. I've been at it for 12 years and they're just now beginning to look like I want.

I'll bet your neighbor would be thrilled to have a place to dump it. Our son's friend has a lawn service and cuts our grass. He has asked whether he could dump his clippings and other debris on our land; we have pastures and woods that would work. It would have saved him a lot of money. But he also uses pesticides and herbicides and we're organic, so we told him that unfortunately that wouldn't work. We do take clippings from our son but he doesn't spray or treat his grass.

Welcome, ButterflyChaser - we're glad to have you here. I'm a big proponent of getting leaves, clippings, wood chips from landscapers. My only concern is that I know they're using chemicals (mostly for lawns and slug bait, I think) and I haven't figured out whether any of that is retained in the stuff they send over. Some day I'll do an analysis and see what they say.

Your garden looks very cheery and welcoming!

I was about to resort to Roundup to kill the weeds that are popping up from my composing weed piles. I have enough weeding to do that I don't need to have to weed the spots where I'm trying to kill grass for a new garden (argh!). That's interesting about Roundup, GG, so it isn't 100% safe as many people claim. That was always my fear. I live very near a wetland and I don't want to impact it with fertilizer or weed killer. So maybe I'm still at the pull, pull, pull stage.

One day I'll get everything mulched and then maybe I can get ahead of the weed seeds. Yikes!

You just don't want to dump or overspray the Roundup directly into waterways. Once it's dry, it's stuck to the plant and not a problem. But if you're spraying at a lake or pond's edge, you risk overspray getting into the water while you're spraying. Likewise, if you spray on a windy day, you risk breathing it into your own lungs. (You might want to wear a mask for safety.) But with proper precautions, it's safe. If you're not spraying on a windy day, next to the wetland, or washing your sprayer out so it runs off into the water, you'll be fine. Just read all the precautions that come with any chemical. Anything used improperly can be dangerous. It's only as safe as the person using it.

Some people use straight vinegar to kill weeds. I haven't tried it, but a friend did and he said it just made the grass sick, but it rebounded. So he's going back to Roundup. People also say you can use salt, but the problem with salt is it will seep into surrounding areas and kill plants there too. I had thought about using it in my gravel driveway, but I have beds planted on each side of it and I don't want it to destroy them.

I would love an organic alternative to controlling the bermuda, dock, dandelion, and all the other weeds that fly over from my neighbors' fields, but I just haven't found anything that works. If anyone knows of a proven organic method, I'm all ears. I hand-pull what I can, but along the edge of my gardens, between my property and my brother's, the bermuda keeps trying to creep into my beds, so that's primarily where I use Roundup. I also have a big issue with the annoying orange trumpet vine. I've found that Roundup mixed with 2-4-D is the only thing that kills it, but of course it pops up elsewhere. I'm trying to erradicate it completely. Wish me luck!

I do intend to invest in Preen next year. Preventing the weed seeds from germinating in the first place is more to my liking. Is Preen a safe alternative? Or is there something else you guys prefer? Preen is rather expensive, especially on the grand scale I'll need it.

Katie, I get my mulch from tree trimmers, not landscapers. So I don't get the lawn chemicals in my mulch. Of course I don't know if any chemicals were used on the trees, but chances are slimmer that they were.

Kathy, re Roundup/glyphosate:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=weed-whacking-herbicide-p

and

http://www.chronicle.pitt.edu/media/pcc050411/sci1_pesticide.html

and

http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2005/Relyea-Monsanto-Roundup1apr05.htm

The articles note that while Roundup is not sprayed on wetlands per se, there is not only overdrift, but amphibians often breed in very small vernal ponds in areas which would likely be targeted for aerial spraying, rather than in obvious wetlands.

The Scientific American article also states that it is not just the active ingredient, glyphosate, that causes problems, but also the inert ingredients, which are "more deadly" to human embryonic, placental and umbilical cord cells than the glyphosate itself. Potent stuff!

This message was edited Jul 19, 2010 4:46 PM

I heard a local celebrity botanist say that salt is worse than many chemicals because it never breaks down. So that soil will remain "polluted" forever.

I'm wondering if the trees absorb any chemicals while they're growing. Tree chemicals or even lawn weed-killer chemicals. Don't want to alarm anyone unnecessarily, but it seems that we often find connections like that.

Are you familiar with Gardens Alive? They have some organic alternatives. Corn gluten to stop weed germination is among them. Certainly not as effective as Roundup, but it's still good to know about.

http://www.gardensalive.com/Default.asp?bhcd2=1279567614

Plants such as phragmites have been used to uptake toxins from the water supply, but then you have to dispose of them safely once they have incorporated them into their cells.

I've used Gardens Alive products. There's a lot of hype in their catalogue but some of the stuff seems useful.

Thank you. That's all I need to know. I think I'll stick with pulling, burning and vinegar . . .

I got an organic fertilizer blend when Garden's Alive sent coupon. It was not very good quality compared to the bags of all-purpose I get from a local place, but the frost blanket I got from them was decent and useful.

Roundup is used by environmental agencies around lakes and streams by painting it on to the newly cut stalks, and it works against several of the worst weeds: Polygonium being the #1 offender in the northwest.

I use wood ash to kill large areas of grass prior to planting. I learned the hard way when spilling a wheel barrow on my grass. It was zapped for a year. I think the grass kiling effect of ash is salts and alkalinity. What I like about it is the reversable nature of salts. Just add sulfur inorganic fertilizer to the spot and "presto chango" you neutralize the salts.

Soferdig, that's a good trick! I'll have to remember that!

I'll just stick with Roundup. I know it works and is fairly harmless the way I use it. It works fast and I don't have to redo it, like my friend is redoing his weed killing after trying vinegar. I don't have time to waste doing things over and over. Roundup is so efficient, and since I won't be doing any aerial spraying over waterways, I won't be contaminating anything.

Now to find a good and cheap pre-emergant...

Butterfly, love the picture of your garden! You must be very energetic, with all your digging and mulching. Thanks for being so earth-friendly.