ZONES 8-9 FALL/WINTER 2010

C,
I've been corrected on the use of the foil. Been told to use mylar as a reflector instead, as the foil can cause hot spots on the plants.

You should see the awesome stealth CPU (computer) growboxes the marijuana growers have developed to hide their trade! Kids are growing "weed" in their bedroom closets in plain cardboard boxes on the shelves, and you'd never know it! I was up till the wee hours looking at the different instructional "how to" posts on YouTube.

They're perfecting making the computer towers "lightproof" so all you see is a regular looking computer cpu sitting in a corner, when in fact, it's got grow lights, fans, an exhaust system (to cool the plants) and seedlings inside. And no light seeps out!

What desperate minds will come up with!

Wow that is so funny! So they actually think you are working on your computer when in reality you are growing things on your computer, that is very clever.

Here's a cabbage seedling update. Unfortunately, I got sidetracked with car trouble and didn't get them under any substantial light over the weekend. I put them near a window on Friday and watered them. Coco coir holds water very well, so no drying out issues. Just need more light!

Although tall and leggy, they've developed nice cotlyedons, and are trying to make a first set of true leaves!

I'm thinking I might need to deep root at least a couple of these to see if they'll start beefing up under some flourescent lights at home. I can run 'em all night and off during the daytime.

Advice is welcomed!

Linda i have to do the same and soon, I planted 2 seeds in each cell of broccoli and cabbage and they are getting leggy and big, I really need to go to the feed and seed store and try to get more plastic cells to plant my seedlings in. Anyways here's a picture of the cabbages.

Here's a picture of the broccoli.

Purple Broccoli.

Carmen,
My cabbages aren't nearly as beefy as yours. Great job! What medium did you start the seeds in?

I'd forget about the plastic cells, and just get a bag of 12-16 ounce plastic cups (50/bag) at the Dollar stores. Those cabbages in the first pic look ready to be planted up into a 16 oz. cup. I'd sink 'em all the way down to those first leaves, too.

LMK what happens and keep posting pics.

Hugs!

This message was edited Jul 13, 2010 1:10 PM

Thanks Linda I do have some plastic cups I could place them in, good advice like always. The medium I used for all my seedlings is one that I purchased at Lowes, Jiffy organic starting mix.

C,
Use a pair of scissors to cut drainage slits in the bottom of the cups. I snip and quickly twist the scissors at the same time to make a little crimped opening. Then you can sit the cups in one container and bottom water from here on.

I'd add some H2O2 at a rate of ONE tbsp/gal to the bottom water. Then, after they get a little larger and established with no damping off, I'd add ONE tbsp/gallon EP salts to the water, too.

Keep me posted!

Linda thanks for the tip, I will have to buy more cups as I ran out.

I have a question and I am wondering if anybody can help me. I am growing sweet corn and is growing beautifully, I really think some of the corn is ready to pick but really can't tell for sure. I read in some books that a good way to tell is when the silk goes dark brown, the variety I am growing is Silven Queen.

Also is anybody else growing Fall tomatoes?, just tranplanted about 10 plants in a raise bed and have about 4 more for EB. Hopefully the bugs wont be quite as bad.

Yes, I am. I'll have to plant the seeds and just hope for the best. We are leaving on vacation soon and DS will be in charge. He's trusworthy, just not very adept with plants, etc.

I'll be growing tomatoes for fall. I'm trying to get a couple through the summer to see what they do in the fall. I will start seeds in the next week or two to set out late August - depending on the temps... I will be growing cold-set varieties and should get a decent crop before frost.

Our yard has been shady so my garden has struggled. Lettuce did well, but a lot of what I planted just never did much. We finally got to the point of either throwing in the towel or doing something drastic to fix the situation. And I didn't want to throw in the towel!

Well, TODAY four 25-ft crape myrtles were removed and I have SUN -- at least part of the yard! Hubby's building me a 4x8 raised bed - fairly deep because under it is only 4 inches of alkaline soil on top of limestone. (8.2 pH.) around here. So now I have some important things to do shortly -- fill the box and get some plants / seeds going!

FILL QUESTION: I have one garbage can of homemade compost made but I'm trying to decide just what (soil and amendment-wise) needs to be used to fill the box. Hubby would like to use soil from the yard and then add amendments, feeling it would be cheaper and easier, but with a pH of 8.2 and not very good drainage, maybe it would make more sense to buy a ready-made garden mix. If you were filling a box, what would you ideally use??

PLANT QUESTION: My hubby wants tomatoes, I'm up for anything (except okra), but it would sure be nice to have a successful garden now, and I don't have any seedlings started. I do have some packs of seeds of several things from previous attempts. I also have a couple tomatoes in pots from this spring but don't know if it would make sense to move them in the raised bed. They'd like the room, I'd guess, but would it be worth the shock to their systems? They are looking pretty haggard at the moment. Plus, I have no idea if they will produce again in the fall or not. I also have two bell pepper plants in pots. Same question, I guess. Would you transplant or no?

I will confess -- I'm looking for success! Hubby was great about paying for tree removal, and offering to build the box -- I guess I want to show him there will be dividends!

I'm sure I'll have more questions as we go along, and now I'm going to reread all the stuff on this thread so far about who is planting what. Thanks for reading this!

Lise congratulations, you did good, that is so wonderful you took care of your problem plants and now you can grow a lot more, believe when I say I understand you completely, I used to live in a townhouse and hardly no sun at all, just shade and not many things did well for me either.

Now this is just my opinion O.K so please if anybody has a different one please coment. I too grow in raise beds and believe me when I say that it can really get expensive if you have to go and buy the bags of cow manure from Lowes or Homedepot, so you have a few options, either buy cow manure and other manures and fill the box or you can try and see if you have anybody in your area that could give you some free manure, maybe horse manure ( make sure it is aged otherwise it could burn your plants), or if you have some landscape places in your area find out if they sell in bulk instead of by the bag. I got top soil in one of my raise beds and then amended the soil with black cow manure, this way I saved $ because I did not have to buy as many bags of black cow manure. If your husband wants to use the soil you have in your house, you could go and test it first to find out what is lacking and then place amendments to it as well like manure, green sand, vermicuite and perlite for better drainage, rock dust if you can find it or IRonite etc... If your soil needs to be more acidic, sawdust, composted leaves, wood chips, cottonseed meal, leaf mold and especially peat moss, will lower the soil pH. Dolomite Lime works too.

Now for the second question, If your DH wants maters, you could just buy a couple of plants at Home depot and or Lowes, and also start a few from seed indoors ( remember it takes 6 to 8 week for good transplant size) I have heard of people just planting the seeds directly on the soil as well but personally I have never done it that way. I did transplant some tomato plants that were on my Earth boxes because they were just too big for the EB and they just did not do too well, I think they reached a size where transplanting them was just not a good idea.

If your plants in the containers are smaller and not huge like mine were then I am sure you can transplant those in the raise bed garden, same with the peppers.

Just a warning though, once you get started in this path you might catch a bug and never recover, you will want more and more veggies, more growing space, your DH will be a slave building you more and more raise beds, hoop houses, chicken coops, composters, etc, ect, ect,

As far as the benefits, yes you will eventually get them, fresh produce right outside your door, no more going to Walmart to purchase onions or tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers in the summer, or lettuce and arugula, broccoli in the winter etc.... plus what about all those wonderful veggies that you can't even find in the supermarket like a purple or yellow carrot, or purple broccoli, or a wonderful and tasty mouthwatering heirloom tomato, or fresh spekled colored beans from your garden, the list goes on and on. ENJOY> :)

LiseP,
Welcome to the Zone 8-9 Growers group!

First order of business. Is your DH for sale/rent/borrowing? (BIG LOL!!)

I have two raised bed I just had filled with a commercial veggie garden blend last September, but had little time to test it out (I'm in the process of moving. Sure hate you can't come to town, cause you could go get it for free!)

Anyway, regarding the tomatoes and peppers you now have. KEEP THEM GOING and YES, you can transplant those maters into the bed and hope for a fall crop! I've had peppers come back from the dead of the summer heat and revive in the cool of the fall/autumn, too, so keep them happy a little while longer, and then move them to your raised bed(s) too. Also, if your maters are looking a bit "ratty," you can take cuttings (6" suckers) and root them, then transplant them to the garden at the end of August! They should do fine.

Carmen/Steph/Kelly, et al,
Let's help this lady out. Her produce has cost her four TREES, no less!

Lise,
You're fast approaching the cole crop season. Google "cole crops" and read up on what veggies like growing in the cool/cold of fall/autumn/winter: cabbages, broccoli, cauliflowers, kohlrabi. Then, you have your root crops of turnips, beets, carrots. And, the "greens": lettuce (lettuce will grow from the cool until the frost -- will die in a freeze), spinach, mustard and collard greens. These are the veggies I work with during the fall/winter. Review the posts above for other veggies folks are gearing up to grow starting around the 1st weekend in September.

You can start seeds for the cabbages, broccoli, and cauliflowers now to get ahead of the season a bit, or, you can wait until mid-August and just direct sow them into your bed. With a brand new bed like yours, I think I'd prefer to sink some established seedlings rather than go from seeds, just until you know what your soil type turns into. You can also sow the seeds for the greens in some flats, and then transplant into your bed.

You CAN grow potatoes, too! All of us here just finished growing spuds in the springtime, and we're gearing up for a fall plant out. Go get some organic potatoes at the Whole Foods store and make 'em sprout (you know how, already, right?) for plantout around August 14 or so....Go to the Vegetable Gardening forum and look for the basket of Irish potatoes. That's where we have our potato growing diary!

Uh, you're gonna need a longer bed....any way your DH could lengthen your bed to 12' or 16'?

All the cole crops are heavy feeders, and they LOVE, LOVE, LOVE organic additives, so your homemade compost mixed into your soil will be right on time! Keep all your like crops together in the bed. The organic feeders on one end, perhaps, and the root crops on the other. The root crops will take longer. The cole crops and mustards and collards can tolerate more shade, too. I grow all mine in eBuckets on the bright light (but not much direct sunlight) fringe of my yard. Been quite successful, especially with cabbages in 5-gallon eBuckets and greens in patented EBs.

Oh, you can also grow onions and garlic in shallow, flat Rubbermade tubs. Talk to Sapphirestar19 and Carminator1 for onion advice. They grew some monster crops last time!

You can sow your spinach and lettuce thicker than recommended, and just thin them out as "baby" greens. Thin with an eye toward creating spaces around sme that you leave to grow to full size heads. How's that for "micro greens?" Yummy!

Ok. I'm running out of knowledge to pass on. If I think of anything else, I'll let yah know.

The rest of ya'll jump in anytime, now, hear?

^^_^^^^_^^^^_^^^^_^^ (The Zone 8-9ers welcoming LiseP to the Fall/Winter group!)

P.S. LiseP, remind me to talk about Winter Sowing! Start collecting some gallon-size milk jugs to start your SPRING tomato seedlings beginning December 21st!

Hugs!

Linda


This message was edited Jul 15, 2010 3:00 PM

Talk to the folks at Shades of Green. They're awesome!

Doesn't lime raise the PH by making the soil even more alkaline?

Yep - don't use lime if you already have alkaline soil. That's the story of my desert soil...

Thank you, thank you, for the welcome and advice. I'm lapping it up.

Stephanietx, thanks for the tip about Shades of Green. I have been frustrated by nurseries on my side of town that only sell flowers and maybe herbs, so I'll plan a trip to Shades of Green (and also Fanick's which I have yet to visit). The big box places are okay but well...you know.

Gymgirl, my tomatoes are around 5 feet high, if that affects the transplant advice. I'm thinking to transplant only 1 and maybe a sucker or two and leave the others in pots, so I'll have room to try a few other things in the bed. Does it have to be an actual sucker or can I snip the last 6 inches of any side branch?

And thanks for advice on where to buy organic potatoes. And about growing onions/garlic in a flat Rubbermaid box (I even have one, didn't know what I was going to do with it and now I do!). Great! And all the rest of your advice too. Yeah, 4x8 bed is what we will start with, but hubby loves to build and has guaranteed he will build more once he sees that I can actually grow things.

Carminator1, I know about getting bitten by the bug. Even my lackluster attempts have caused me to uproot trees after all. LOL. We already know where the next beds are going, but we will start with just one for right now. Hubby has seen me viewing 'path to freedom (Dervais family)' and 'growingyourgreens' youtube videos enough times so he pretty much knows what my long term vision is. And he is okay with it and will support it -- as long as things grow! Btw, he is the one that wants chickens, lol, although not sure it's going to happen in our development.

I do have a landscape place close by -- Fertile Gardens. They sell "light garden mix" for $32/cu yard and you can bag it yourself in smaller amounts too, but I don't know what is made up of. They have manure and various amendments (also bulk or bag it yourself), etc. Need some bat guano? They have it!

As far as using our own garden soil and adding things to it, I have some quantities of the following that might be good in the bed:
5-gal bucket of sawdust;
1 large trash bin of homemade compost; (another bin is not done yet).
1/2 big rubbermaid box of perlite (mother's day present last year was a really big bag);
3/4 rubbermaid bin of peat moss (not fond of peat moss, since it's so prone to making a crust if not sifted well, so it makes me anxious to use much at all)
1/2 box (8 oz?) of blood meal

Okay, I've rambled and taken everyone's time so I'll shut up and get back to studying everyone's posts, and also studying the book Texas Organic Vegetable Gardening by Garrett, to see if I can do the math and cut down his recipe for soil from 1000 square feet to a 4x8 box, lol.

One last note - I am really glad to have this thread and such helpful and knowledgeable folks on it. Will be sticking around for any and all pearls (perlites?) of wisdom from you all.

I really don't think that our high PH has ever caused a problem in the garden. Tough on faucets though

Oh Sorry bad advice about using lime. Still learning about alkaline and acidic soils and what to add.

Forgot to mention, you might already know this but if not here it is. pathtofreedom.com is the Dervaes website and it is great, love to learn what they do on a daily basis.

Thanks, carminator1. No worries on the lime, I knew that part of the advice didn't fit for me. It's easy for me to remember "no more lime" in my soil because I know I'm sitting on a ledge of limestone and I know my soil is already too high/alkaline at 8.2, when best for veggies is around 7 (or 6-7), I think. "lime" sounds a lot like alkaline (I think "alkalime" when I hear it), so lime is alkaline.

Also, on pH, someone once told me the following and I have found it helpful:
There are only four letters in "acid" and four is a low number, while there are 8 letters in "alkaline" - a higher number. Ditto with the pH scale - low number = acid, high number = alkaline. You didn't say that you were confused on that issue, but maybe it's helpful to someone.

Thanks for mentioning the pathtofreedom website. I went there awhile ago and it was having some problems (pages no loading) and I kind of forgot about it. I see now that it's working much better and I agree that it's a lovely resource.

I always thought it odd...that acid is a lower number and alkaline is a higher number. Logic (to me...?) is that acid should be a higher number....but that is not how it works.

C,
I went to HD at lunch and bought a light kit for my seedlings!

I got a clamp on reflector for $7 and an "Ecosmart" Daylight R40 compact fluorescent floodlight for $8. It puts out 120 watts of cool light for only 23 watts, and is 5000K (whatever THAT means).

Anyway, I put the flats on the floor under my desk and put the garbage can in front. You can't even see it from my desk!

How's that? I'll let you know the difference it makes with the cabbage seedlings.

I bought two kits, 'cause I'm about ready to start some broccoli and cauliflower seeds next week sometime.

Hugs!

Please, no more talk about PH. It has taken me 25 years to remember which is which.
I agree the base should be at the bottom, but its not.
Linda - you go girl. You know you are crazy, right?

Certifiable! I view it as "occupational therapy..."

Hey, Ya'll,
Look at Kindlekat's eTub design. I think it's deep enough to do some root crops in there (beets, turnips, Nantes 1/2 long carrots, and maybe another one for onions and garlic). What'd ya'll think?

I did offer a revision to Kindlekat's design, though. Since the overturned tub already has perforations around the sides, all that needed is to drill some additional holes in the ends where there are no holes, then pack the soil tightly around all the sides, then more loosely above the top of the tub, as usual. That soil packed around the tub becomes the wick, and there'd be no need for that wicking basket in the middle. Think "square colander!"

I didn't see an overflow hole, and one would definitely be needed. Also, I'd extend the length of that fill tube.

I'm thinking one 'a those gynormously long and deep Rubbermaid tubs oughta do it. And, if need be, just use two overturned perforated baskets that fit the length of the tub. Although, once it's filled, there'd be NO moving this eTub! And, I think I just cut the construction time by 25 minutes or so...

It'd take all of 10 minutes to make!

LMK soonest.

This message was edited Jul 16, 2010 3:50 PM

Ok. I need everyone to put on their thinking caps and tell me if this will work.

I woke up with moving my eBucket garden on my mind, since I'm giving myself 3 more Saturdays of HARD work to get moved to my new location.

Here's what I came up with;

Instead of trying to repurpose the existing eBucket potting mix which is slowly compacting the buckets, and since I've agonized over the two new raised beds full of brand new garden blend that's NEVER been used, I've decided to take those raised beds with me! Here's my plan. Tell me what you think, please:

Dump all the eBuckets (or take the existing medium with me, if it can be repurposed to the raised beds...)
Dig up the two beds and refill the buckets with the garden blend to move to new location
Pull the bed frames and rebar
Set up frames in new location, and begin lasagna layering with all existing newspaper, shredder paper, leaves, coffee grinds, and veggie slush.
Refill beds in new location with garden blend from the buckets
Set up the hoop over the beds to keep the Rottweiler at bay...praying much...
GROW IN GROUND for the first time, for the upcoming season!
At the end of the season, leave the beds in place (as beginning flower beds) as a gift to my young hosts.

I can still use the eBuckets as necessary, as well as the EBs I'll have.

This way, since I'm conflicted about having wrong medium in the buckets, I believe it will work where it was supposed to go in the first place -- the raised beds -- some of the garden blend found its way into my eGarden, and the mix is getting too tight. I was gonna try to add pine bark fines and peat to repurpose it, but this makes more sense in the long run.

Then, I can just start the potting mix fresh when I get back to my eBuckets...

What'd ya'll think? Now, I'm REALLY gonna need advice from a whole different growing perspective. I KNOW reservoirs and watering patterns for the eBuckets, but now we're talking "drip and drainage"! Good thing I have all the components for BocaBob's automatic watering system, too! I can set up the whole thing on this raised bed, and on a timer, too!

This is sounding better and better. All but the part about who's gonna dig up 72 sq. feet of garden beds plus a compost pile that have 2-1/4 yards of planting medium between them...

the silks turn brown and dry up, super brown to falling off dry, can peel one in that condition, see how many of the top corns are filled out, on the corn

kernals, top kernals

Gymgirl, sounds like a big plan, but one with dividends! If I'm understanding correctly, the only 'con' I think of (aside from the added work), is to consider what you'll be leaving behind if you take the beds. Are the people that bought your old house assuming that the raised garden beds you built were part of the deal? Maybe they think they are going to get them. (Double check your contract).

Or, if you've been in a rental where a landlord has let you put the garden beds in, consider what that spot will look like after pulling everything out. He might be fine with you leaving garden beds behind, but cranky to see a spot that maybe was grass before the beds went in but is now a bare spot after the beds come out.

Other than those possible issues (and added work), it sounds like good logic with a happy garden on the other end.

Linda, I think your idea is great, does your new hosts want the raise beds? It really would be a nice gift for them and expecially the kids, my kids, expecially my little girl just loves to plant with me, what a great learning experience for them, you go girl! :)

Now the E-Buckets look almost like a retrofited EB, I really think it might work, but please let me know when you try them because I might make 1 or 2 if it does, imagine the savings, I think the real EB went up in price since I bought some myself 5 years ago. I have a question though, what will you use as the plastic cover for your home made EB?, I know that the EB sells those plastic covers that comes in white in one side and black in the other.

Well I finnally collected one corn cob, I started peeling one that was done and there was one of the ugly worms eating the top of the cob so I decided to grab it and of course kill the worm, he munched a little of the top kernels but the rest seems to be doing good, hopefully I can collect a few more for tonight and have them for dinner.

I'm not sure how much gardening you're doing these days Linda and that goes for Sapphire as well. With all the rain we had over that 7 -10 day stretch late last month, we are now paying the price with mosquitoes. They're everywhere and its real bad. It's a pain in the neck because when I get home from work I like to go to the backyard and work some gardening-time into my day. But with all the mosquitoes around, I have to spray down with Off and that makes for a very long evening. And forget about backyard foggers, you can't find them in this town. Everyone's sold out. Anyway, I'm done whining. They'll die-off soon enough hopefully.

LiseP,
Sorry, you came after the news, so you don't understand my move. I'm getting a divorce, and am moving from my DH's house (the one he has made infinitely clear is "his" house), and in with a nephew and his family. I'm leaving the DH's house to him, but taking my two raised beds and my portable veggie garden (I'm almost exclusively eBuckets and patented EBs). I'll leave the raised beds with my newphew, since they do want a flower garden. They're a young couple in their first home. I might even try to plant some flowers in between my cole crops to give them a taste of what's possible.

I spent $100 on the veggie garden blend last September, and paid my handyman helper $75 to haul the blend and level one bed (after I hauled all the dirt for the 1st bedby myself). DH never offered any help. So, I wouldn't want to leave the beds for him as added, extra work. What with sprinkling those flower seeds and all in that virgin dirt..might give him a case of the vapors or something....

Gymgirl, well you can ignore my previous comments then! Sorry not to have been clued in on the plans, my attendance on the forum has been spotty at best lately, but I plan on being here a lot more, so I'll be interested to know how the move goes -- and given the circumstances, it sounds like a good plan! Good luck!

So Gymgirl on the sq rubbermaid cont above are you saying leave out the little orange cup in the middle. I did the 5 gal buckets with the round colanders from the dollar store and they work great. Dea

John, I haven't been brave enough to weather the skeeters in my yard for any length of time. Its gotten so hot only the cukes and peppers are producing any more. I've been checking for things like hornworms, but 5 minutes is all I can stand these days without getting chewed to pieces (and I hate smelling like OFF all evening).

I am soooooooooooooooooooooooo glad to hear that other people HATE to smell like OFF all evening, too!

Deanna8,
Consider the overturned perforated tub in the pic as just a "square" COLANDER. Get the concept? All she needed to do was drill extra holes on both ends where there were none and, voila!, instant "square" colander! And since, the top is sealed, this would help create the much-needed air flow space between the soil and the overflow hole, since the soilbed would be elevated out of the water. Only the wicking perimeter would be constantly saturated.

The more I learn, the more I'm beginning to understand how necessary oxygenation is to the soil. Oxygen and water are more necessary than even food to a plant. They can stand to miss a meal or two, but no water, and no oxygen means sure death!

I believe that's why the designs that are creating slightly wider airspaces are yielding greater growing successes.