I'm going to try strawbale gardening!

Connie, from what I remember of Kent's posts in past years, I think he used the foliage spray when the plants were bigger. Waiting to hear what he says.

Okay...thanks, Jnette :)

Connie, I don't spray my plants with any foliar spray other than pesticide when needed.

When I use MG I use 1 tbl spoon/gallon or dump some in my container that fits on the hose and just water until it runs out. I probably use MG about once every 2 weeks, give or take.

I've been using some Osmocote slow release pellets along with some commercial low-grade manure.

So, I have several things going on at once

I'm starting to lean more to the organic side and not use things like Sevin.

Of course, ask 100 gardeners and you'll get 100 different opinions!! LOL

Concerning foliar sprays again, here's a quote from Dr. Carolyn Male, who's research and advice I follow closely on anything pertaining to tomatoes:

"Some data strongly suggests that foliar spraying with Ca++ is of no use because not enough gets to the fruits to do any good. And it's known that the sprays for fruits that are sold are useless. No molecules can get across the fruit epidermis. If they did, just what do you think would happen to the fruits when it rained."

Source: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/291012/

Not sure what she means by all of that other than to "don't bother".

When I said that Kent foliar sprays his plants, I was talking about MG. Nothing else. 'Cause I don't know what else.

I think I understand now :) I know you can foliar feed houseplants by spraying the plant itself to allow absorption of nutrients and also by watering to allow nutrients to absorb up through the root system. What Dr. Male is basically saying is that the plant will not absorb enough nutrients through foliar feeding to make a difference if I understand it right and I would agree with Jnette in saying don't bother LOL!!!

Sorry if I stirred up confusion but I thought you were using two different methods to fertilize instead of one. I will shut up now (grin)

Thanks,

Connie

No Connie, LOL, that is what I understand HER to be saying. I think you are right in that the spraying does help feed the plant thru the leaves. Just my opinion. LOL, and I'm not humble about it.

Also, I think that Kent, before he was trying all the other stuff, WAS doing both, drenching and foliar spraying with MG. He is going to have to clear this up for us.

Come on Kent, what'er you talkin' about?

OK, I'm back with you!

I used to wet down my plants when I watered/fed with the MG, but I quit wetting the plants/leaves once I read/studied that the leaves really don't absorb anything worth the effort AND the wet leaves can make the plants more prone to diseases.

Kent

Hmmm...Just to be safe, I have just planted my veggies in the bales. Jnette, I did forget to add epsom's salt and went back out the next day and sprinkled 1/4 cup around each plant. I waited until May 15 to put them in and did so right before rain. They are so wilted. The bales have really broken down and are black on the sides. They are still wet inside due to all of the rain we have been getting. How can I correct this? Can't let the neighbors in my backyard until I get these purked back up :) Any advice?

Thanks,

Connie

Connie, are they black from decomposing??? If not, what made them black? If so, when did you start them, I can't remember? You say they have really broken down. Is there any way you can force them up tight, and get them to stay?

Where are you Connie, besides zone 5 I mean? Ok, I see, Missouri. I wouldn't think you would have had them out long enough for them to totally deteriorate by now have you?

Kent, any ideas for her?

YAY!!! Happy to hear from you Jnette!!! We brought the bales home in March. They are still in form, growing "grass" on top and the sides are black. I just assumed they were black from breaking down. We have had a few cold spells so we waited until a few days ago to plant them into the bales. I went back out just to check and it is cool inside the bales and wet. We put in tomatoes, peppers, watermelon and cucumber. The cucumber has already died and the other plants are wilted pretty bad. I don't know what I did wrong ?????

I'd imagine that, if they're growing grass, they're not composted/cooked. If they were, it would have cooked all those seeds for the grass. They may have been treated with something - don't know why they'd be black.

The two most common causes for wilted or dying plants that I've seen in all my reading are:
(1) not enough water (doesn't seem to be the case, unless the plants were near-dead dry & wilted when you put them in); or
(2) not enough fertilizer... The plants get in and have nothing to eat. :(

Did you fertilize them right when you planted them? (Which fert did you use, and how much?) Did you use compost or manure when planting?

I'm also thinking it's a possibility that the roots got cooked, although I am not sure because I can't tell what the timeline is from your description above (sorry). Of course we have no way of knowing if we don't have an accurate read of the temp in the bales. Maybe this isn't an issue at all. ??? [See, now you just taught me that I really NEED to get a compost thermometer tomorrow! -- thank you!!]

Or, maybe if you fertilized heavily & watered when you put your plants in, the nitrogen in the fertilizer kicked up decomposition which kicked up the internal temp on the bales. So too much of the wrong kind of fertilizer when planting actually resulted in cooking the roots.

Lots of possibilities to look at! I don't know the answer, I am trying to figure this out like everybody else. =) There are bound to be some losses, unfortunately, with us newbies... not looking forward to that process once we start planting here in NE Wisconsin! [We don't even have our bales cooking yet, *sigh*]

Hope this helps!! Please please let us know what the cause was if you ever figure it out. It helps us all succeed!

K :)

aspenjocop,
The only thing I can think of is the _possibility_ that the straw/hay was treated with an herbicide of some kind. I had a similar problem (last year, I tthink?) and it was suggested that some hay producers use something on their fields that prevents the growth of anything but hay. I never did find out if it was true, as we bought the hay from a place that didn't grow it themselves. Could anyone around you be using round-up, or something like that?
Did you put any soil in with the plants? I wouldn;t be too concerned about the cukes, they're touchy about transplanting, but the others should skip a beat. I was just wondering if the inside of the bales might be so loose that the plants are just kinda hanging there. I had some like that, and had to add a lot of compost/dirt to give them something to hang on to.
I'm really just throwing things out, and hoping that someone will have a solution for you, it sure hurts when the look so pitiful...

SS wrote;"I'd imagine that, if they're growing grass, they're not composted/cooked. If they were, it would have cooked all those seeds for the grass."

That makes sense, and yet, it doesn't hold for my bales. And, like you, I'm a hay sayer. I had abysmal luck with the straw I tried, but it was a crummy growing year all around. Still, I'm back to the hay.
The point here is that my bales grow grass after they decompose, but not before (that I've ever noticed). And some are _really_ decomposed. Not all of them, but I'd say at least half. I pull the plants out of some, but those that are really part of the bale, I just trim them down.

You all are so wonderful to try and help me succeed at this! I went back out this morning and I tried to remove the plants from the bales as I was thinking the same as catmad and the plants were maybe just "hanging" inside. They didn't want to come out and I was afraid of doing more damage so I went to plan B. I grabbed a bag of potting soil and placed it around the plants, then I mixed up some fertilizer (20-20-20) and watered in small doses to allow the plants to soak it up. A few are showing improvement after an hour and I will go back out later on to check on them again. Pics are worth a thousand words and this is what I was talking about when I said the sides were turning black. I went back through some threads and I noticed this "darkening" in some pics other members have taken. I have also found 2 mushrooms so I am sure they have cooked.

Garden2heaven asked me about fertilizer. I planted these in the bales on May 15. I sprinkled 1/4 cup Epsom salt around each plant right after planting (forgot to do it during) thinking I would fertilize with 20-20-20 in one week.

Thanks again for everyone's input. Any further advice is welcome.

Connie

Hi Connie :)

Kent is the real pro at this, of course =) but from what I have read, it's a good idea to prep the holes & plants w/ fertilizer at planting time. We have to be careful not to use a fast-acting fertilizer that will heat the bales up again (I keep repeating this because I am soooooo afraid of doing it myself! LOL) but something like Osmocote in the bale & in any potting mix/compost used around the plants PLUS a shorter-acter like Miracle Gro watered in at the time of transplanting, should work.

If your plants are perking up now with what you're giving them, I would think it was a combo of water + nutrients. =)

The nutrient value is super-super low (nonexistent?) in straw bales so we have to put all the nutrients into the bales ourselves. Kent described that he is doing a 3-pronged fertilizing approach this year (Osmocote + watered-in Miracle Gro every 1-2 wks + rich compost) which makes sense to me. The nice thing is that if the plants use up the Miracle Gro, they aren't S.O.L. for nutrition -- they will still have the Osmocote + compost to tide them over. It seems to cover all the bases?

So, so glad your plants are starting to come around!!!

:) K

Connie, I'm glad to hear your seedlings are perking up! I, too, wondered if you had put any potting soil in with the seedlings. I usually make a decent hole and then fill it with a potting mix (I'll try coir this year) mixed with worm castings and crushed egg shells before actually planting my bales. (I save the eggshells all winter, nuke them in the microwave and crush them fine in the blender.) I pack in the soil mixture as deep as I can so the roots are in some soil at the beginning until they spread out on their own.
The bales should already have some nutrients from the perking process but I always use rock phosphate, bone meal, and a general organic fertilizer as my last day's fertilizer when perking the bales. This year I have run out of my granular organic general fertilizer so will be using a liquid fish emulsion based one and liquid kelp as well as the epsom salt solution Jnette mentioned. I will feed the plants with the liquid fertilizer.
Last year was a bust because of the terrible weather and blight but if you pay attention to the feeding and the heating up in the beginning you should be fine. I know I always seem to lose a couple of plants to the bales "reheating" if we get really hot days in the beginning after I think they have cooled enough. It's like "stewing" the plants!
I love straw bale gardening and will have 21 bales this year. Things are still a bit behind because it hadn't rained that much until recently and it is a job to keep the bales well watered in between. I have finally gotten the hoses hooked up properly to do it. The weather has also been cloudy and cool. We need more sun to help them heat up. Hopefully by next week they will be ready to plant! More rain is predicted along with some warmer days!
So good luck to you and let us know how it goes. You neighbors will be envious yet! LOL
Jessica

Well, again I appreciate all of the comments and advice to help me along. In just 5 days, I have managed to kill all of my healthy tomato, pepper, cuke and watermelon plants. They started to perk up yesterday morning and then that was it. We have had a light gentle rain today and Hubby went to check on them and said they were gone. Double checked the straw bales just in case...cool inside.

Thanks again for your input,

Connie

Connie, I am so sorry. I just don't know what to tell you. First of all, you cannot tell anything by the grass growing. It will grow all summer. I have a bale sitting there that is from last year and if I could get my electric mower on it I would have a beautiful lawn. After one year. Most will grow the grain, or grass, or whatever all summer.

Second, I do not think you should use fertilizer when planting other than the slow release. Especially on cucumbers. They do not like to have their roots disturbed anyway. Not even to a bigger pot. I just repotted one and I don't know if it is going to make it. They DO NOT LIKE TO BE UPROOTED. It is always best to plant from seed on those if possible. And absolutely no fertilizer on them until they get over the shock of moving.

Third, if anything other than the slow release in the fertilizer way, some Superthrive or equivalent would be good on all of the above. If you are planting with potting soil included, that should be enough nutrient for a week or more. That with the slow release and Superthrive if you use that until they get a toehold should be enough.

I am wondering if what Catmad said about the herbicide is not the problem. Is there any way you can find out from the seller if they did use one? I just told my DH about your plants dying and believe it or not, he does not know the first thing about gardening, and he says "someone put an insecticide (he meant herbicide) on them". Out of the mouths of babes. . . . . .

Anytime bales, either hay or straw, are advertised as "guaranteed weed free", watch out. That should be a warning flag. I am not saying that they said that to you. I am just saying that for everyone's information.

So, now what are you going to do? Just curious, did they ever get the black mushrooms?

Wish I could help.

Connie,

So sorry to hear that none of the plants made it. That makes me wonder, too, if an herbicide is the culprit. I have never lost plants in all my bales just maybe one or two plants here and there. That indicates to me there is a definite problem with all of the bales. Something should have survived in a couple of bales even if you did fertilize (but it would depend on what you used and if you burnt the roots!). Will you start over with new plants? It can't hurt to try again with a couple of the bales and use potting soil this time. That would make it really clear it's a bale problem and not something you did.
I like Jnette's advice to wait a week before adding fertilizer. Worm castings are always safe (don't burn) and would give enough nutrients for a while. The usual recommendation is 2 parts soil and 1 part worm castings.
I hope something works out for you. Straw bale gardening is truly fabulous. I'd hate to see you give it up the first time around!

Jessica

Good suggestion Jessica. Unless of course she wants to start over with a few new bales. But I don't think I would get them from the same place. Maybe get 4 or 5, for tomatoes and peppers. The problem is, what to do with the bales you have Connie. You can't use them for mulch even unless you make sure there nothing wrong with them.

Connie, would you do something for me? Would you turn a couple of your current bales over and plant a couple tomatoes in them? I will send you the money. Don't say anything to anybody, your neighbors or anybody, just plant them like they are the ones that are growing now. Don't plant them too deep, get fairly small plants. Go ahead and use some compost, or something. No fertilizer except some slow release if you have some. Superthrive if you have some. Remember just a drop or 2 to a gallon.

Just an experiment I would like you to try. Let me know how much you spend and I will send you the money. Jeanette

Definitely a good idea to ask your seller if, when and what the bales were treated with.

I asked the farmer I bought our bales from. He said they were treated with 2, 4-D last August, about 6 wks before they were baled. There were some good hard rains between treatment and harvest. This seems to be the most common herbicide used by farmers, and I am hoping that our heavy watering of the bales will wash off whatever might remain of it after all of this time. (Yeesh, REALLY hoping, now.........?)

:) K

Ahhhh...you ALL are so precious! Please understand that the ONLY thing I planted them with besides the soil they were growing in was 1/4 cup epsom salt sprinkled around them the next day after planting because I forgot to do it when I planted them. I mixed up 1 TBSP to a gallon of water of Miracle Grow for Tomatoes and used it as a last ditch effort to save them.

Jnette...you are something else :) Please don't send any money, Sweetie. The bad part about all of this is the very healthy plants were from your seed that you so kindly shared with me. So sorry. Hubby has been off of work due to surgery and has truly enjoyed starting those seed and watching them grow. I thank you for that!!!

He said we have 2 extra beefsteak and 2 extra Heinz plants. We have no compost but I do have some more potting soil. It is Expert Gardner Perfect potting mix that feeds for 9 months. Will that work? No one knows about the bales. They were bought at Westlakes (like an Ace Hardware Store). I did see a couple of mushrooms growing and the bales are growing some "grass". Would they still do that if herbicide was used? We don't know of any farmers around here having anything other than round bales.

Thanks,

Connie

Connie, when I googled 2 4-D like garden2heaven (K) said her bales had been treated with, it said it is used for broad leafed weeds, and the most commonly used for the purpose. So, that would mean the grass would still grow. After all they are growing hay. As for the mushrooms, not sure. I just don't know on those. (and 2 4-D would not know the difference between broadleafed tomatoes and broadleafed weeds).

If they were just tomatoes, just peppers, or just cukes, mellons, etc. that would be one thing, but it was all of the above. I am so sorry, but I would say it has got to be the bales. The Epsom Salts wouldn't do it.. If one or a few of these didn't like the ES, then that would be another thing. Tomatoes especially love them. Just like roses. My mom bought all the ES in a drug store one year because she had over 50 roses.

This is going to be the puzzle of the year for me Connie. So now what? Unless you have already planted them, I think I would plant the rest of your plants in tubs this year I bought some Muck Buckets at Walmart (19 or 20 gallon) for $5. Problem was the ones they have this year are outrageous colors. My DH suggested you take a sample of the straw to your county extension office and have them test it. I have not a clue as to what they would need to sample. You might call them and ask, because you can't use the bales for anything else if they are contaminated.

I would hate to see you lose your last plants by planting them in the bales. I guess I tend to forget that other people don't overplant and have extras to mess with like I do. Not that I plant a whole packet of seeds.

Bob is right. It would be best to have them sampled then waste your remaining plants. Please let us know what you do.

The only other thing I can think or is something like Round-up drift. I had one event where all my tomatoes began to curl up and die. I don't remember it affecting anything else, but the tomatoes were on the "road" side of the garden. Turned out the county had sprayed the sides of the road to kill kudzu, and it apparently went far enough to affect my poor little 'maters. They did survive, but never did much else.
Could any of your neighbors have sprayed anything?
I'm sorry, I wish I could help.
I'm with Jeanette, put the remainder in dirt, and see what happens. It would be too sad to lose those, as well.

2, 4-D is the 3rd most common herbicide in the world and while its use is more common in pastures and croplands, it is not long-lived. It has a half-life of 2-15 days depending on where it has been sprayed. It is considered biodegradable (!) because micro-organisms break it down. So, if the culprit is 2, 4-D in particular, the way to get rid of it is the cook your bales like crazy! ...... including the outsides if at all possible, so I would strongly consider putting a nice layer of compost on the top of them and fertilizing like crazy w/ the watering. (That way the compost is "super-activated" and will break down the 2, 4-D on the surface/upper layers of the hay bales) But we don't know for sure that it is 2, 4-D.

I would have much preferred to get hay bales from non-treated pastures, and actually have a friend who raises untreated hay for his grass-fed cows, and am going to try to buy bales from him next year. Connie, your trouble w/ your bales has me all gun-shy now. Now I'm all OMG-NO-HERBICIDES!!! -- hahahahaha :)

Connie, how long have you had the mushrooms? Like, when did they appear? Just curious.

:) K

Here's a link to information about 2, 4-D's behavior -- http://www.24d.org/backgrounders/body.aspx?pageID=30&contentID=133

I suspect we don't see more problems from 2, 4-D with straw bale gardening because the cooking process prescribed by Kent would break the chemical down. The cooking process (with the fertilizing & decomposition process) IS how you break down this particular chemical.

So if the bales have been fully cooked/prepared, you shouldn't have a problem with 2, 4-D.

:) K

That may be true, but I don't think everyone is cooking the bales that thoroughly. Maybe we have just been lucky.

Ummmm...where do I start???? This will be one to remember LOL!!! We had put some tomato plants out in a small garden for "just in case" and have the four left over. We were thinking like you all and maybe set them in planters and debating on whether to tear down the 4x4s and wire we put up. Well...ya might want to to get another cup of coffee (or stronger) before you continue reading this....

THE PLANTS ARE TRYING TO COME OUT OF IT!!!!!! I warned you on that drink (wink). The stems are still brown and damaged from wilting and doubling over but the leaves are straightening out...and green. The Good Lord has a sense of humor 'cause all we could do was stare and shake our heads as we tried to pick our jaws up off the ground in amazement and then laugh.

Okay...now...I need all of you key players to huddle together for an action plan and select a coach. I SO need a coach at this point. I am getting excited all over again. YAY!!!! Talk about a roller-coaster ride. What about top soil? I have some of that. I am still speechless with this. Oh, yeah, we thought we had better start watering again HA!!!

Connie

Potting soil or coir would be your best bet. Better than topsoil. Try to work the potting soil gently down into the straw to cover the roots if possible. Once the plants have recovered fully you can feed with a good organic fish emulsion fertilizer. Hope they keep recovering!

Good advice. LOL, Connie I was just getting ready to go looking for you to see how you were doing and what you had decided!! I sure would like to see some pictures of them. I am sure you would rather wait until they recover more but whatever. This is truly amazing. Do you have any room to put a new healthy plant in there? I would like to see what happens if you do.

Sorry, but I guess I am wondering how actually healthy they are going to be if they do recover. In other words, are they going to be good enough to produce? I don't mean to be a pessimist, but don't want to see you go thru the season with no results. Were they shocked so much they can't produce?

That is why I would like to see a healthy plant put in there and watch it for a week or so. How long were they in there before they did that?

Here is a pic of one that is recovering. Someone asked about mushrooms and you can see one of them to the right in this pic. Pitiful plant but it is surviving.

I think you are watching these plants like sick babies but I think rather than waste time I would put new plants in. If those plants are coming back I would not think it is the bales.

Someone up above suggested that possibly one of the neighbors or someone was maybe using some kind of herbicide on weeds or something and it drifted. Is that possible?

I just do not know what to tell you other than to not count on these plants. You will probably lose the whole summer if you wait for them to produce. Sorry. Do you need more seed? Or is it too late in your area to start over? Probably.

How is your husband by the way? He had surgery and here we are just worried about the goofy plants. Tell him I am sorry we haven't asked.

Jeanette

As much as I hate to admit it, you are right, Jnette. I am spinning my wheels on them but I think mostly because I am so amazed! Hubby stuck the other 4 in the bales yesterday and they look so good. OOPS...probably shouldn't have said how they look LOL!! We will try to find some organic fish emulsion fertilizer Friday - thanks, Jessica. When should I start giving them the miracle grow on a weekly basis? As far as any spray in the area, I don't know of any neighbors or town doing that but ya never can be certain as we live right in the middle of town.

DH is doing better... SO thoughtful of you to ask. He is really excited about this also and was never interested in gardening until he planted those seed. Now I pick on him and call him "my little gardner". HA!! He just asked me if it was too late to try to start cuke seeds out there since they don't like to be transplanted. Wonder what would happen if he did that in Late June/July so it will be cool again when they produce? Good question 'cause I do know some will replant beans and peas around that time.

Pssst...Jnette...notice Kent didn't come back and post on this thread.....LOL!!!!

Connie

Connie, cukes like heat, so go ahead and plant them. I just planted mine last week. I'm glad things are looking up for your plants, but keep an eye out for anyone spraying anything in your area, although I'm not sure what you could do should you see it....

'morning Connie, and your spouse, you're looking good this morning. Haven't lost your sense of humor or patience yet? that is good.

Ok, If you used some potting soil in planting them, they should be ok for a week or so. The fish emulsion is a good idea as it is a mild fertilizer. Not harsh. I would watch them to see how they are doing and maybe give them a diluted, maybe half strength Miricle Grow the next week.

LOL, Connie, I just stopped where I was and went back to the beginning of this thread and re-read most of it. Mostly what you wrote about what you did. I truly hate to confuse things, but one thing stuck out in my head. "soaker hose". However, I did not see where you used any harsh ureas or nitrates to decompose your bales in the first place did you?

What I was thinking was that if you did, the soaker hose would not have been enough to wash that stuff out and it possibly burned the plants. The soaker hose would probably be enough to water the plants once they were up and growing, but if you were using chemicals to decompose the bales the soaker hose might not have been enough to wash it out prior to planting. That would have burned the plants.

Cat is right. Cukes like heat. They are not a cool weather plant. Listen, anything you want to plant you should go ahead and do it. Just use potting soil to plant seeds. If you have the room in the bales you have nothing to lose but seeds. If you need seeds I think there are enough of us out here to get you going again.

But, let me know about what you used to decompose the bales, and what watering system you used.

Good morning/afternoon all!!! Thanks for the advice on the fertilizer. We will fertilize when we get the fish emulsion tomorrow, then follow up the next week 1/2 strength with MG. We will get the cuke seed in today...YAY!!

I took the earlier advice of Kent and did not use anything for the breakdown. The bales broke down naturally on their own so nothing there. We are finding that the soaker hose "just 'aint soakin' " HA! We are keeping a close eye on that and have been since the first go round. Ya wanna know what's workin' for us??? Okay, don't laugh too hard now. When we lived in MS we learned a trick to "slow water". You take a 2 liter bottle and cut part of the bottom off, take the lid off and stick the "lid end" of the bottle in the ground. Fill the bottle with water or fertilizer and it will slowly soak in and less run off. Well, because it runs through straw faster, we left the caps on and drilled two small holes in the caps. We will do this a few times and slowly water the bales with the hose as the water from the bottles soak in close to the plants. We seem to have less run off doing this. We don't have enough bales this year to warrant an irrigation system and this is working...believe it or not...HA!!! Ya'll just choked on your coffee, didn't ya? Sorry about that :) Here is a pic of it. That tomato plant looks a whole lot better, huh :::)))))))

Connie

Well Connie, whatever works!! Looks great. Yup, I would go ahead and plant whatever seeds you want or think will grow in the straw, planting with a soil mix, and have fun. All it is costing you is a little soil mix and whatever seeds you have left.

If you want more let me know. I think I still have plenty.

If you use the fish emulsion you shouldn't really need any Miracle Grow. Follow instructions on the Fish emulsion as to how often you should feed plants (every two weeks? once a month?) When the plants are setting tomatoes it is then recommended to use less nitrogen and something with calcium and a higher phosphorus number (the middle number) as well as liquid kelp. I tend to try to be as organic as possible so use organic products which MG is not. But whatever works for you is fine. I would still wait on adding the MG after using the fish fertilizer for at least two weeks!

Jessica, Wait!! I doubt that she should go by what it says on the directions. She is planting in straw remember?? Not soil. 2 weeks,? a month?

Have you done this with fish emulsion and straw? Just really curious. I never would have thought this regimen would be enough.