Hey Al!
I don't give up easily. I went back to SW Fertilizer to check again, and I found a bagful of Sugar Corn Pop size fir nuggets! It's Schultz's Orchid Mix! I remembered you saying to check out the orchid mixes and there it was. Problem is that it is $5.99 for an 8 qt. bag which is very cost prohibitive.
But at least I've found it and now know what it feels like to find dime-sized, gold nugget, pine bark fines!
So. Here's the pic of what's in the bag. Then we'll move on toward Conroe, cause if I'm going to make enough mix for at least 15 eBuckets, I'm gonna need to hike on up 45 with that trailer, right? And, thanks a million for helping me out!
I know you spoke at length with them in Conroe explaining just what you were looking for right? So, it's the right stuff? I could go Saturday afternoon. I'll google to see if they've got any pics online and to get directions.
NOW I AM TRULY EXCITED!
Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention III
Al,
I can't find the website or the phone number online for "Timber Solutions" in Conroe.
(936) 321-8111
I double-checked on the Supplier in Houston, and he has a location in Missouri City on S. Gessner that also has the double grind pine bark. I'm going Saturday to pick up a load.
Al,
I'll be using my eBuckets and Earthboxes (SWCs) this season. When I do get a raised veggie bed built, can I use this pine bark in it too? Just wanna know what else I can do with the excess I'll have...
Linda
I've seen lots of DGPB before, and it's usually been very good for use in container media, but I'm sure it varies from supplier to supplier. Send me a pic after you get it, and we'll figure out the best way to combine it w/other ingredients, so it will suit your purpose(s).
If you want fir bark for the gritty mix, go to the yellow pages and start calling orchid growers and businesses that cater to them - preferably large outfits that have their own greenhouses and sell supplies to hobby growers. Tell them you're making your own medium, and need fir bark in 1/8-1/4" size.
Yes, you should be able to utilize the DGPB in raised beds, too.
Al
My container plants are more successful than in years past doing this.
hellnzn11 - more successful doing what?
Tx_gardener,
I think Hellnz11 means using the pine bark (fines) to create her own growing medium...
Al,
I didn't get to the supplier. Life got in the way this weekend.
Yes since using this mix and the principles taught here, I find that my plants, who usually struggle from drought or heat or root rot are flourishing in the pots. It is very hard to garden in this zone, hence the screen name Hell in Zone 11(sunset). I proved this equation by making a few large batches and putting it in some large pots. The ones with the old mix, struggled to bloom and retain enough moisture, seemed choked out of O2 and it is harder to figure out what to do to make them improve. The ones in this Mix, don't seem affected by most anything, they seem to hold on to the fertilizer as well, not wash out, not sit stagnating on the bottom.
Hellnzn11 & Tapla,
Question about planting in the 5:1:1. Since the pine bark is roughly in "chip" form, it's the fines and the peat and perlite that comprise enough of a "soil" texture for the plant to send roots into and establish some anchorage in, yes?
Oh you need to direct the question to the master, I ignorantly followed a recipe, as closely as I could, it may not be exact either, but the principles he shared made good sense to my plants apparently. I defer to the Master Talpa and bow out in humility.-
Ahhhhhh Sow, Hellnsahn!
Tahplasahn, how do you respond?
Plez forgive this ignorant stoodent for presuming other weedhopper have anser only Master can provide!
Much apology and humility,
Lindasahn
Ahh so fellow glass hoppa. Talk to us Master Talpa.
We better watch out joking, he is a serious sort.
Naw,
Al's a good guy, and if we're talking dirt, "he got game!"
Right, Al? Al?
Al is working. Which is what I should be doing....
Holler!
I have not seen this side of him yet, must pay more attention.
Hi guys - been to the big city (Detroit) car shopping. Sorry I'm late. ;o)
"Since the pine bark is roughly in "chip" form, it's the fines and the peat and perlite that comprise enough of a "soil" texture for the plant to send roots into and establish some anchorage in, yes?"
Not really. Even large chunks of pine bark will support great growth and supply adequate anchorage. The problem with large chunks isn't related directly to texture; rather, it's related to water retention. You can grow perfectly healthy plants in a bucket of those 'boulder' size marbles, the ones about as big as a Tootsie Pop sucker, if you want to stand over it and water every 20 minutes.
Back to Linda's question. The large bark particles provide the base for a very well-aerated soil that might not have enough water retention. The fine particles are the 'balance'. Start with the large particles and add enough fine particles so you can keep up with watering .....
After I figured out that insufficient aeration and excess water retention was a limiting factor in my growing, I set about trying to figure out how to reach a favorable balance between the two. I already knew I was willing to water a little more in exchange for better growth/vitality, so it wasn't much of a leap to see that larger particle sizes were the key. From there, I factored in cost, and determining what ingredients were best suited to the role they needed to fill in each soil. Long story short, I settled on two basic mixes that were pretty flexible. By varying a few simple ingredients, you can change water retention so it suites your particular needs.
The original recipes should be usable by almost anyone, but they're just frameworks for you to build on. I was never selling a soil, or a couple of soils. I'm selling a concept - that soils that are durable and retain excellent aeration while still providing adequate water retention will make your life so much easier, will offer the best opportunity for you to produce plants growing at as close to their genetic potential as possible, and have a LOT of potential to improve your effort:reward quotient.
How do I look at the joking around? That's a really hard question to answer, because I like to joke around and trade stories/wise cracks back and forth too. Even though I'm always serious about helping people, I'm sure I come off as more serious than I actually am in 'walking around mode'. I also tend to try really hard to respect the original topic of threads. That doesn't mean I won't follow and participate as conversations morph from the original topic, but if the new topic is unrelated to the thread, and doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the thread, I try to avoid posting. Even when people ask me off topic questions on someone else's thread, I tend to be polite and offer the briefest answer possible, and point out I'm uncomfortable being off topic on someone else's thread, and usually suggest D-mail.
Some threads are less serious than others though, destined from the beginning to be short-lived. It doesn't seem to matter much if those threads dissolve into off topic chatting back & forth between parties after the subject seems to be exhausted. This thread is a little different than that, though. I think a lot of people follow this thread, and many come to it often for reference. I often wonder how frustrated they might be, having to read through the conversational posts to get to the information they're looking for? Actually, I've only asked a couple of times on my own threads for people to stick a little closer to the topic, but OTHER posters have expressed their dismay about off topic posting several times, which is one of the reasons I think people are regularly following this post.
So how do I decide what's appropriate when it comes to posting? I can only say that I try to ask myself these questions: What is the nature of the thread? Is my offering on topic? Will it be informative, or, does it have the potential to interest more than 1 or 2 people involved in the conversation, and is that conversation on topic.
Many of you guys have first hand experience, even apart from my threads at Dave's, re. how far I'll go to help to anyone who asks for it or needs it. Remaining on topic could easily be looked at as being respectful of that effort, and of anyone who might be looking through the information in these posts next week/month/year. It's all good, guys. I always appreciate your participation and enthusiasm - always. ;o)
Take care.
Al
Makes sense, many people come here to get the info and it is a little scientific in the beginning so I guess off topic for this long of a thread, would be hard to decipher where info starts and the banter being more of a nuisance. I am a banter type person all in all, because I come here for friendship as much as info, but I do get why you are that way about the topic. It's been helpful. Thanks.
Tapla, I respect your attitude about staying on topic. I got so frustrated with chit-chat on another forum that I just gave up on getting any pertinent information!
Mary
We might as well go off topic and talk about this if anyone wants to. I'm curious how others feel about OT posts. It's not as easy as it sounds, and I understand that. For instance, my comment that 'I was in DET car shopping, so couldn't respond to the posts' was clearly off topic. I followed that with an on topic reply to Linda, then launched into another discussion that is probably off topic, though in the end it will hopefully be a benefit to the thread. I have a lot of friends on the forums that I've helped over the years, and we all enjoy chatting with each other. For many, the very natural thing to do would be to ask if we bought a car, or what kind of car(s) we were considering, much like a real time conversation between pals would go. Maybe the answer is to keep the pleasant chatter (which I really enjoy, BTW) short, and mix it in with other on topic offerings. I'm not just talking about this thread now - more like how to satisfy our need to network beyond the OT and still be respectful of the OP's efforts and others following the thread.
I often take that approach when I see people joining someone else's thread who need encouragement or guidance. I try to offer help when I can, but I do it in such a way that the comments are pertinent to the thread.
Just recently, I've seen comments by folks with dual memberships on two different threads at GW, mentioning the fact that here at Dave's, threads very often, to the point where you might even be able to say 'usually', break down into chatter between two to several people that has nothing to do with the OT. I don't know how others deal with that, but I usually just stop watching the thread because it's almost like listening in to someone else's phone conversation. I'm sure I miss some opportunities to offer on topic comments or help, but ....
I don't want anyone to feel bad or like they're not more than welcome, so let's talk this out, & then we can get back to soils. If there are no comments, we can just get back to soils. ;o)
Al
I'm good, you guys?
I'm good! Let's talk dirty...er...dirt!
^^_^^
Yeah! I'm good.
I have some seedlings I grew in the mix, I forgot that I had them in a particular spot, so they did not get supplemental water and are doing good with that mix.
I just found that my local source for mulches and soils seems to have an appropriate fir bark on their product list. I'm hopping in my car now to go and see what it really looks like. Check it out. It's called 1/4 Minus Fir Bark.
http://www.grabngrowsoil.com/pBarks%20&%20Ground%20Covers.htm
Whaddya think????
Susan
Couldn't find a picture, but it sounds right for the gritty mix. Do screen out the fines though, please. ;o)
Al
A few days later and a few more questions/observations.
The 1/4 minus looks pretty good, but there is a whole lot of the minus that goes through my 1/4" screen, and I'm wondering what that part is useful for???
And, in researching around the net this morning I came across a reference to a product called LECA
http://homeharvest.com/hydroponicmediumleca.htm
Any idea how useful it would be in a mix? It sounds to me like Turface which I haven't yet been able to find locally, although I'm heading off to a couple of places today to look some more.
Susan
The smallest particles in the smallest size LECA are still about 3X larger than ideal for the gritty mic, Susan.
If you're screening the bark, save what passes through 1/4 but what doesn't pass through 1/8 for the gritty mix. The fines that pass through 1/8 can be added to the 5:1:1 mix, which is what I use for all my veggies and the pretty display containers I have scattered through the gardens & on the decks. Waste not - want not. ;o)
Al
Uh, that's
If the bark passes through 1/4" screen, but doesn't pass through 1/8" screen, then it goes in the gritty mix?
Fines that pass through 1/8" go into the 5:1:1?
What size are we using to screen bark for the 5:1:1?
I'm still lurking....been busy moving...this is my last weekend...^^_^^
The smallest particles in the smallest size LECA are still about 3X larger than ideal for the gritty mic, Susan.
If you're screening the bark, save what passes through 1/4 but what doesn't pass through 1/8 for the gritty mix. The fines that pass through 1/8 can be added to the 5:1:1 mix, which is what I use for all my veggies and the pretty display containers I have scattered through the gardens & on the decks. Waste not - want not. ;o)
Al
Thanks, Al. I saw some of what I think is LECA at a local building/garden supply place today and you are absolutely right. I had no idea from the original picture I saw of the stuff that it was so huge....kinda like marbles.... Scratch that idea.
Okay, so now I need to go and source some 1/8" screen....
This is like a treasure hunt, and it is interesting visiting all my previous haunts looking for new stuff and seeing what they do and don't have that just hasn't registered before. At the same place I found the LECA, I did pick up a bag of pumice that I would never have noticed before. Also a new fixture for putting a t-5 grow light into.... Shop shop shop..... The rains will start tomorrow and I will have all sorts of indoor projects...
Susan
Linda - hopefully the double grind I put you on to won't need screening, but I would say 'ideal' for the 5:1:1 mix (in containers) would be everything that passes through 3/8 mesh. See picture from 9/11 upthread.
Susan - you're very welcome. Best luck! ;o)
Al
Got it!
Susan - you're very welcome. Best luck! ;o)
Al
I found 1/8" wire, pigeon grit, and I'm probably set to rock and roll, but now I'm going to have to go back to the beginning and see what to do with everything. I picked up two new Semps while I was out, so they will be my first victims.....:-))))
Susan
This is a lot to read and very informative; I am learning a lot. I belive that Al (Tapla) is simply trying to pass along information and insight in a helpful spirit. There will always be some folks who take offense as though the knowledgeable one were a braggart. We need to realize as gardeners that we share a common passion and that Al is saving us time and trouble by sharing what he has learned.
That said, I have a question or two: In the event that bagged potting soils are the only choice available at the moment, is orchid soil the best bet? I have stopped buying any bagged potting soil except orchid soil available at Wal-mart and Lowe's. I pot everything in it except cacti and succulents. For those, I use cactus soil, also found at Wal-mart.
What is the usefulness of growing things in peat at all? I start many things in Jiffy peat pellets and find them great for getting seeds and little plants started. I will even keep such starts in peat for a long time until the plants are overgrown and must be potted up. Then the young plants usually go into orchid soil.
This year, I want to take the steps that Al has outlined to make my own soil based on the science that he has provided. Thanks so much!
Peat is light to ship, plentiful, inexpensive enough to present a greater potential for profit for potting media (soil) packagers, and many/most people are willing to pay for the convenience of not having to go to the effort of making their own soil. As you probably already know, I have found that with only a little sweat equity, you can make a much superior soil for less.
I think that to make a judgement about whether orchid soil is better or best, we would need to know a little about it's composition, primarily the size of the particles and their physical characteristics. I think it's important to understand that what this thread emphasizes isn't so much the particular soil recipes; rather, I wanted to point to the fact that well-aerated and free-draining soils that have, inherent, the ability to retain those properties for the intended life of the planting, offer much greater opportunity for plants to grow to their genetic potential within the limiting effects of other cultural factors. The soil recipes are just good examples of how you can implement that concept.
For several reasons, soils that support little or no perched water, yet still offer good water retention, will be more productive AND easier to grow in, offering a much wider margin for grower error in both the watering and fertilizing depts.
I use the 5:1:1 soil, pine bark:peat:perlite for all my veggies, mixed floral display containers, and the short tern plantings (1-2 years in the same container). For ALL my trees/shrubs, houseplants (including cacti and succulents) - all the long term plantings I think will be in the same soil for 2 years +, I use the very stable 'gritty mix' seen in the picture.
Al
Are there any bagged mixes that you'd consider or would you feel they all need some amending, Al? Thanks.
Fafard makes a couple of good mixes if you can find a dealer that will get them for you. Their #51L and #3 mixes are good, with the #51L getting the nod over #3 because it is slightly more porous. I know it's sometimes difficult to locate the right size bark, but once you get a supplier located, making your own is very easy. I dump a bag (2 cu ft) of bark and about 3-4 gallons each of peat & perlite on a tarp, along with the lime & anything else I might be adding. I then mix with the flat side of a garden rake (so I don't tear the tarp) before I pull on the corners of the corners of the tarp so the ingredients are all thoroughly folded/mixed together. If you don't count the 5 minutes it takes to screen the peat to break up any clumps & get the big sticks out, I can have a 3-4 cu ft batch made in 15 minutes. Clean-up is easy because everything stays on the tarp. I use a plastic dust pan to scoop the soil back into sturdy bags I keep (like 50 lb dog food bags) for that purpose, or scoop it back into the pine bark bags for future use.
I put the bark down first & moisten, then pour the peat on top, then the perlite and moisten the perlite. After it's folded together & sits for a few minutes, the hydrophobic tendency of the peat is eliminated as moisture from the bark & perlite diffuses into the peat particles.
Al
Thanks, Al. I've been using Fafard for years. Only our bad backs prevent us from all the work you do but we do add some fine pine bark to the mix.
I'm getting ready this spring to repot all of my houseplants with Al's soil mix (the gritty mix). Just one little question that I haven't been able to find the answer for reading this thread, which is probably because my brain can't keep track and is in overload! What is Turface and where can one buy it?
While waiting for the answer to what is Turface (and where can one buy it), I appreciate Tapla's help, and in thinking about the concepts, I have boiled them down to this:
Roots need air as much as they need water.
Container soil is best when it is made up of chunks that allow air to exist in the soil.
A good soil allows water to freely drain out each time you water.
This will clean the soil of toxicity.
The best container soil is that which drains freely but does not make you water constantly.
You should fertilize each time you water, provided the water drains freely when you water the plant.
You do not need a layer of stone in the bottom of your pot. This will shorten the pot since you can't put soil in that last layer.
It is not wise to allow water to pool at the bottom of the potted plant.
Plants would do well to exist in longer pots than what we are used to seeing in the marketplace.
Overly simplified ~ Please forgive that, but I do believe I am "getting" the concepts. Thanks.
