Best mix for propagation?

This is my first effort at indoor propagation and seed starting. What medium is the best? I'm using a shoplight and heating mat. Thanks in advance!

They sell seed starting mixes at any of the big box stores and probably any nearby nurseries - especially for just starting out, that would be my choice. Once you get germination and a few leaves, then the soil choice becomes a little broader, depending on what you're starting.

HTH!

I agree with Pagancat, while there are many ways to do it, the seed starting medium from the big box stores is good and, just as important, is sterile so you don't have a lot of diseases attacking your new seed sprouts. It's fun to see the seeds sprout and become big plants, I really like it.

Here's a thread over in the seed germination forum you may be interested in. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1064577/

I used coconut coir as the medium for my most successful seed starting endeavor and will continue to use it each time.

Here's a link that shows you how it's typically packaged: http://www.wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=SCCB300&AC=1 It's available from many different sources. I found mine shelved with other seed starting supplies at a midwestern chain hardware store.

After I soaked mine in water, I put batches of it in the microwave to sterilize it. I don't know if that's necessary, but I've suffered the disappointment of damping off often enough that I'm happy to take the extra step to prevent it.

Around the time that the seedlings develop their first true leaves, they will need nutrients that the coir doesn't provide. I added some controlled-release fertilizer pellets to the coir before I planted the seeds. It worked fine, but I'd like to find an organic solution to use instead.

Some people say that you should pay attention to the sodium content, as some coir has a lot. It seems to be true, as I saw something that looked like sodium in my coir after using it for several weeks. So this year, I'll look for a brand that says it has a low sodium content.

Good luck with the seed starting, whatever medium you decide to use.

For organic food I'd say you could use some type of liquid to feed them. I'd guess fish or seaweed emulsion would be good. Even a compost tea or alfalfa tea would be great. Alfalfa tea may be a bit too high in nitrogen and also in salt (since most is made with adding epsom salts to it), I think I would avoid that. I'd stick with something more like a "food" and not a "fert", there is a big difference and most folks forget that. Seedlings need food, not ferts.

If you can stand the smell I'd go for the fish emulsion. You can make your own, if you can stomach it...just don't tell me about it. I've used the fish emulsion indoors and honestly I've never suffered the odor. I wonder if most folks forget to read the instructions that you are supposed to mix it with water????

How is the water retention on the coir anyway? I mean in comparison to peat moss? I notice you are using paper pots, that's a tough thing to do with a peat based mixture, at least for me...there always seems to be too much water or never enough when using paper pots with a peat based mixture. Your paper pots look impressive...or did you snap that pic right after potting everything up? It doesn't look like it from the way things look...very impressive. Maybe I'll have to give the coir a shot, but I think I'd try it as an additive...more of a water-holding agent than just as a base for my mix.

I was considering using fish emulsion, so I'm glad to hear that you use it indoors and it doesn't bother you. Thanks for the tip! Unfortunately, I won't have compost available, so the tea is out.

I'm not sure how to compare the coir with the peat-based mix. You probably know that the peat itself dries out (if you don't keep it moist enough) and then repels water. Coir just remains fluffy, and if it dries out, you can water it again and it's fine. Some people say that the coir retains moisture longer. I don't know that that's true. I still had to water my seedlings just like I normally would. And I don't know that you'd want that. You want the water to either be used by the plant or drain out, not sit there. Overall, there never seemed to be too much water or too little.

I've had some (but not much) success with seed starting with peat mixes, so again, it's difficult for me to compare. I'm sure it was user error on my part, but I found the coir to be practically fool-proof.

As for the paper pots, I started out thinking that I would need to use several sheets of newspaper to avoid the whole thing falling apart. It's only paper, right? But that ended up being too thick to fold after you roll them up. Two sheets or even one is sufficient. They're somewhat delicate when wet. But when I hardened off the seedlings, I made sure not to water them close to the time I'd be transplanting them. And they went into the ground just fine without falling apart. Just like you, I was amazed that they were able to hold up like that. (I've been using newspaper under my mulch, too, and you wouldn't believe how well it keeps the weeds back. It's a lifesaver!)

One thing I did notice with the paper pots is that I need to consider how long the seedlings will be in them and how vigorous the roots might become. When it came time to transplant, many of the tomato roots and some others had escaped the paper pots and tangled with each other in the bottom of the tray. And no matter how tall I made the nasturtium pots, their roots poked out the bottom as well. I might do the tomatoes in plastic pots this year to avoid that.

Trying coir as an additive sounds like a good idea if you're already having success with the peat mixes. I wish I could better answer your question on how they compare. Maybe you could do an experiment: a few straight coir pots that you could compare with your peat mix. I'd be interested in hearing what you find.

This one shows the coir close up. The lighter material is starting to dry out, and the darker material is saturated. So as it gets lighter, you can kind of use that as a guide on when to water.

Thank you for the close up pic. It actually looks very much like peat, but sounds much better. I'm not good on the watering. Too much or too little...guess why I know so much about damp off prevention?? LOL!! I'm thinking I'd really like to try coir, maybe even as much as 50% in a peat mix and see how it does. Really only including the peat because of nutrients...and, of course, because I'm used to it. If I do get to try this I will do a few all coir and see how I do with them.

I thought the coir texture would be more like the liners used in window boxes, etc. The long fibers. I've seen stuff like that for starting seeds in, maybe that's called wool? I just can't imagine starting seeds in that, I think they'd get lost once watered.

I agree with what you said about sterilizing the coir tho. Even if it's not really needed, what does it hurt? If there's no trace nutrients/elements in it then it's certainly not going to hurt anything, but could sure save a big mess in the end. I'll have to remember to do that.

Yeah, I'd try some fish emulsion, according to the package instructions. If there's no info there on how to feed seedlings just ask around here on DG and someone will know for certain. I know they use it on Coleus, they'll know on that forum for certain. (It helps bring out the bright colors in the coleus if fed when they are seedlings). If that is too smelly for you try a bag of purchased compost made into tea. If that is still too smelly I'd just do some miracle gro liquid and not fret too much over a few feedings. You could always do the bone meal, blood meal, N-K-G mix on your own and feed them that way if you want to.

It is different from the planter liners, but you can see a few of those fibers in it. My guess is that either they chop the fibers up more, or they use a slightly different part of the husk. Not sure.

Yeah, I might try making tea from bagged compost, as I'll need to learn to do it sometime anyway. Shouldn't be smelly if it was composted properly, according to what people are telling me. I'd thought about adding some of that compost right into my growth medium anyway. Dunno. So much reading to do, so little time!

Dividedsky, you can get a bag of alfalfa pellets from any feed store (horses and rabbits both eat it) for about $10/ 40-50 lb bag. Pour some in a bucket and cover with water, 24 hours later, wah-la, you have alfalfa tea.

I have a friend in Phoenix who plants her new roses in dirt mixed with the pellets, doesn't seem to be too high in nitrogen - ???

The only reason I said alfalfa tea may be too high in nitrogen is because this is being used for food for seedlings, not for already established plants. Maybe someone else can weigh in here with their thoughts???

I've made alfalfa tea before and it IS stinky, stinky stuff. I have a very strong stomach and it made me gag...even after the rain, so be prepared for that.

The other reason I said it may be too high in nitrogen...check the label on the pellets. Be sure you get pellets, cubes won't work. I honestly don't remember what the label on the pellets said, but I remember it making me worry about nitrogen content.

I've used the pellets straight in the garden too. I've never used them or the tea on seedlings and don't want to recommend it and see someone lose all their hard work. I know for certain that fish emulsion will work, I've done that myself with great results.

Here is to no damping off, gnats, heat mats, soil etc, etc, to germinate seeds.

Cut a regular kitchen paper towel in half and wet it. Squeeze out the excess water. Fold it in half. Place the seeds in a corner and fold one end over the seeds. Place this package into a ziplock bag and zip it, leaving a small opening to blow air into the bag to fill like a balloon. Once filled, zip it closed.

If the seeds need stratification, place in fridge for 3 weeks, then move to room temp to germinate. If not, skip the fridge and place in room temp.

Sprouting time depends on variety. Check the seeds daily, starting after the 3rd day. Use a tweezer (grasp the seed casing) of those that have a radical (tiny root forming). Transfer to seed flat or pot. Make a hole with a pencil and guide the root into the hole. Plant at recommended depth, spacing 1" or more, apart. If the roots have grown into the paper towel, just tear the towel around the roots and plant it. Do not try to remove the roots from the paper.

Until the sprouted seeds have broken through the soil, they do not need light. However, once they do, grow them in a sunny window, under light, or place the flat outside in a protected area if weather is warm.

Small or tiny seeds
You can sow by mixing them in a container with moist peat moss. After germination, scattered the peat/seed mix over the surface of seeding mix or potting soil and gently pat the mix down to be in contact with the soil mix.

This is now the only way that I start seeds. It is almost foolproof. Below is Scabiosa seeds still in kitchen towel just prior to planting.

Here are daylily seeds that sprouted in kitchen towel after 3 weeks in fridge.

blomma, is that known as the "deno method"? My mind escapes me right now...I'm up way too late/early due to pain and have taken way too many pain meds due to a loverly kidney stone. Wonder if I sow that if it'll grow kidney beans??? yeah, prob not.

A caveat on the fish emulsion. My cat is really really attracted to it. Use prevention . :-)

Heather, sorry that you are hurting.Hope it goes away.
Yes, that is the Deno method, and works great.

The following seedlings were all sown by the Deno method, then transferred to potting mix to continue growing.

Oh yeah, kitties can love fish emulsion...but mine never seemed to bother it. I used the Alaska Fish Emulsion. It was good stuff. I didn't water it down too much, I promise!! You know, I just thought of something. I wonder if Oust would work if the fish emulsion odor was too strong??

Oust kicks butt!! DSIL and I were packing up their place and came across some cheese in their old barn 'fridge (dorm size 'fridge). God only knows how long that had been in there. She grabbed the cheese and ran outside. We were both gagging. I grabbed the Oust. It was really the first time I ever used it. In seconds that odor was gone. Neither of us could believe it. Now I'm never without it. I bet it would work great.

I'm feeling much better this morning, thank you very much. This kidney stone stuff is crazy. Hopefully by this time next week it'll all be over with. My head is still goofy from those pain pills taken at 4 am, but at least they dealt with the pain...and at least today I have something to blame the goofiness on! ^_^

If you plant your seeds in seed starting mix, you shouldn't have a problem. It's potting soil that should be avoided.

Didn't know about alfalfa pellets. Thanks for the tip.

I do like to sprout some seeds like that. And it's good for testing seed viability. Looks like you do mostly flowers, blooma? I found flower seed-starting more complicated than veggie seed starting.

Glad to hear that your kidney stone pain has subsided a bit. We won't hold it against you if you get a little loopy from the meds.

Thanks dividedsky. But what if I just get loopy in general?? lol! Hoping to have the stone blasted with a laser soon.

dividedsky, The Deno method would work just as well for vegetable seeds, minus the fridge action

Heather, Glad you are feeling better

blomma,

You have converted me! I will start some seeds that way (Deno), as well as the regular way indoors and some WS. I just have so much to do this season. Still, that way makes a lot of sense to me as if I overdo it and sow too many seeds, I will have to plant them all....I am not getting any younger!

Thanks!

Evelyn

I'm trying something new to me this year.

I'm using the burpee ecofirendly seed starting concentrated seed starting mix. it is coconut fiber

I'm also adding in worm castings as these are going into milk jugs for winter seed sowing.

Once I get well enough to start (we are still in winter mode) recovering from another sinus surgery.... then I'm mixing the fiber with the worm castings and into the bottom of the jugs, then outside.

will report back as to my luck with this method.

Janet

Just to add my 2 cents: I've been using the paper towel method for years, and it really does work. In my experience, many seeds will sprout very quickly, especially the big ones like morning glory and moonflower. If you're as impatient as I am, this is very gratifying. Just be sure to check them daily (I usually stick mine in a kitchen cabinet), because if you forget, you CAN end up with a tangled mess...

Another 2 cents . The 7 trays each have a different propagation mix , but where all done one on the same day and sit in the same environment . The closest ones in the photo look larger but this is ONLY the camera angle. .

Maybe watering and temperature control are just as or even more important ????

Holty

Holty, I'd bet there's probably a wide range of what's acceptable - it's just hitting that range, right? I'd say each factor plays a part and as long as it you don't get it very wrong, you're going to do at least okay.

Tell us what different mediums you tested?

Update on my seeds,

I so love the coir fibers and this is the fine grated fibers. NO NATS! and when transplanting to larger pots the easiest I've ever had with getting the seedlings with NO damage to the root. I never really had damage to roots before as I always soaked the soil till it fell away from the seedling, now just let the coir dry out some and shake the tray and away it falls from the seeding. LOVE this stuff reason why: 1) price, 2) this doesn't bother my sinus issues that I'm having right now (chronic sinus polyps disease) and I don't have to wear a mask to use it, 3) no nats, 4)great drainage with this, 5) higher germination rate for me (no matter if the seeds have somewhat dried out (which several containers had seed of that nature in them so I used them to see).

What is DENO method? never heard of this.

Janet

The Deno Method is completely explained in the Seed Germination forum under Seed Starting.

Here is a link: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1064577/#new


Evelyn

Now 4 cents worth :) Mediums are the usual , coarse sand , perlite (fine and medium) coca peat , fine shredded foam etc and the bottom left has worm castings added for bit of a joke .

As I mentioned before the coarse sand on top of some trays is only to stop the seed blowing away ....

Unless I'm way off track , all these mixes need to do is stabilize and help with aeration and a bit of moisture retention until the second leaves form ?

This photo is of the same seed planted 30 days earlier (2nd leaf) and now "playing" with different liquid fertilizers .

It looks like the front tray needs a feed BUT is double planted . (Hmmm , so do I double dose it OR feed it twice as often ? )

Fun :)

You calling that "fun" makes me suspect that you are a plant geek (um, kinda like the rest of here, lol!).

That is interesting .... I've had some problems with seed starting with a peat/perlite mix (typical planting soil) and blamed the perlite. Now I'm going to have to figure something else out to blame.

I'm also having a problem with vegetable plants not getting very big this year - on advice of one of the container forums threads, I didn't add the usual Osmocote to the soil and I'm thinking that is the problem, yikes. Hate to try to sell small plants.

Anything that keeps the brain active is fun :)

My dogs , cameras , motorbikes " playing in the hothouse " , especially coming into winter . Yep WARM Fun ....

BTW...
Also looking at slow release micro fertilizers and will post results when I have enough info to show you .

One is from Apex that unfortunately we cant get over here anymore (still have some left) , one for its results and the other reason is that while its micro , its green coating makes it VERY easy for these old eyes to see in mixes .

Aussie 5 cent worth .... :) Photo .

Without knowing the ingredients, I would say that's the same stuff.

Yeah, warm is infinitely preferable fun IMO!

Great topic. I started seeds indoors last year for the first time, used potting soil, took them out to harden off and lost the whole crop.

Not being one to quit, I got more determined to succeed, read more books over the winter, got more advice, got very confused. Bought one of everything at the nursery, a couple jump start lights, table at Big Lots, I'm sure you can picture the whole scene. But I was playing with dirt so I was happy.

I spoke with Kevin at Corralito's Gardens, the on line nursery where they sell dahlia cuttings that are started in small teeny pots. I ordered some of his dahlias and asked him to recommend a mix .- I really wwanted to mix something ,myself. I used 1/3 coconut coir, 1/3 good quality potting sil, and 1/3 perlite or vermiculite.

I used that mix for all seeds and plants and tubers, and everything. It worked great.

I just mixed another batch for potting vegies in bigger pots, and kind of instinctively used the same mix but added a bigger proportion of coconut coir. How much? Till it felt right.

By now I ran out of all my little boutique bags of stuff and had a couple bags of the organic seed starter - Ferry Morse from lowes or HD - I'm starting other seeds that only take a couple weeks under light indoors- and it has woked juat as well. I don't like the way it feels as much as the other.

Fertilizer - I used the Fox Farm organic stuff - I small cap per a small watering can every two weeks on all the seedlings.

Re: alfalfa - I use the alfalfa pellets straight from the bag spread over the ground - grass and flower and vegie beds. . I just let them sit there until the rain and sprinkler wash them into the dirt I sprinkle them every where - feed the dirt not the plant -.

someone said they saw sodium in dirt? What does it look like? Table salt?