Do I have this Monstera IDed right?

How come every time I go to do some research on a particular interesting plant, I always find Kell inquiring first? LOL! Ah, Kell, a woman after my own heart. We should just live together and combine gardens! LOL! I just bought one of these. I have a new friend that is super knowledgeable about variegated plants. I'm sure he won't mind if I share what he wrote about Monstera deliciosa:

"There are 3 plants that look similar: Pertussa, Deliciosa, and Borsigiana. Pert. & Bors. stay small leafed with lots of stem/stalk between the nodes and 'vine' easily, very few perforations in the leaf and only a few splits. These NEVER get HUGE leaves like Deliciosa does no matter how old they are. Deliciosa, when adult size, can have leaves 4' across with numerous rows of perforations and many many splits in the leaves. They also dont have ANY stalk or stem between the leaf nodes."

Below is a picture he sent me of another grower's M. deliciosa in Long Beach, CA:

Sorry, Clare,....I get first dibs on Kell.

Hap

LOL! :-)

Hey Clare and Hap, my husband says to come get me ASAP! He has packed my bags and parked me at the curb. He is so excited. He says PLEASE take all of the plants too.

I got sidetracked from figuring out IDs. It seems so confusing. If I go by your defintion Clare, the ones at Filoli are as marked then. The leaves were huge. The one I have is from a well known plant guy in San Francisco. He belongs to many of the plant societies. I still have his email. I think I will drop him an email and get his input. I think he single handedly propagated the variegated monstera by the hundreds and it is probably the main one eveyone has here. All lead back to his. I think when he told me its history. I save everything so I bet still have that email from years ago. I will look later. I also have a start of the one from Filoli. It has lived outside for over a year and has been so neglected. I can't even reach it where it is. I plan on bringing it it in and get it to thrive.

Dave, I will google the way you told me later today if I have time. Thanks

I don't want to keep Kell, just pick her brain, besides she'd probably go crazy with my 5 teenagers!
Kell when you have time I need some help with this split leaf tree philo, the kitty had a field day with it, and I don't know if I can save it now. If you need pictures just let me know!

Dave, I found your explanations to be excellent! The problem with the names is largely one of trying to mix science with horticulture.

Horticulturists love to have a different name for anything that appears different in any way while botanists (as you know Dave since you are one) don't normally care. The differences are just natural variation and/or ontogeny (natural change in growth from juvenile to adult).

Since I serve on the board of the IAS (as does Brian) I can tell you the society rarely puts horticultural info on the site unless it has to do with a registered cultivar. There is certainly nothing wrong with cultivars or common names but the mission of the IAS is to promote the study of science while sharing the info with collectors.

Monstera deliciosa borsigiana is a natural variation, but it is much smaller than the plant normally sold to growers. It took several years to find a "borsigiana" for my own collection until I finally went into a local barbershop I had never visited. He had a 35 year old plant and the largest leaf on the plant was less than 12 inches! Although people think this must be a different species, it is not.

Mr. Graf did a great thing for collectors by introducing us to many new plants but he was not very good at checking his facts. His books Exotic and Tropica have many names that have zero basis in science. I used to spend tons of time trying to find a plant I saw in his book only to be told by one of the top aroid botanists the name was bogus. That is because Mr. Graf was a horticulturist, not a botanist. He included just about any name he was given by any other grower, so long as the plant was somewhat unique.

Brian sent a very beautiful plant two years ago he knew as Philodendron tuxtla. I have searched and searched as well as sent many email to Dr. Croat and several botanists in South America. The name does not exist in science and appears to be another of Mr. Graf's creations. By pure luck it now appears the plant may be a natural variation of Philodendron sagittifolium found only in Mexico, at least according to Dr. Croat. All we need now is to see it produce an inflorescence..

Thanks again guys and gals. This is a very good discussion. And thanks again to Dave and Brian for all they do to make understanding aroids easy.

By the way, if you find variation to be confusing this may help, but of course, it may confuse you even more! Plants don't have to look alike to be the same species.

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Natural%20variation%20within%20aroid%20and%20%20plant%20species.html


Again Dave, very good explanations. Mine tend to run too much toward the scientific side and you've found a very nice middle ground to help folks understand.

Steve


This message was edited Apr 4, 2010 6:44 PM

This message was edited Apr 4, 2010 6:58 PM

This message was edited Apr 4, 2010 9:30 PM

I forgot to add that the name Philodendron pertusum is a commercial name, not an accepted scientific name. It became popular as a result of a tissue culture company in North Florida. The name Philodendron pertusum (L.) K. Koch & C.D. Bouché is a published scientific name but was incorrectly published in the wrong genus due to natural variation and is now a scientific synonym for Monstera deliciosa which is not a Philodendron species.

By the way, the juvenile form of "Philodendron pertusum" (as it is sold) looks nothing like Monstera deliciosa but it is in fact just a baby Monstera deliciosa. Looks can be very deceiving in aroids due to morphogenesis known as ontogeny.

Read the link I posted above and hopefully some of this will be clearer.

This message was edited Apr 4, 2010 6:56 PM

This message was edited Apr 4, 2010 7:03 PM

Sorry to take so long to get back in here, Kell. I actually got out and took pictures that very day - and then completely forgot to get back and post them. Steve did a great job of summing everything up - he's undoubtedly much more knowledgeable on the subject than me. (I'm just a hobbyist who collects a lot of plants and does a lot of reading - that of which was written or posted on websites by those the likes of Steve). To answer one of your questions to me, Kell, borsigiana has much smaller leaves ("small" being relative, of course. It's leaves will get 12"-15" or so). It will also have much longer spaces between leaf nodes - 4" or more even on small immature plants - 6" or so probably being more usual (that's from a very leaky memory, though, so my "measurements could be a little off, lol!).

Monstera deliciosa variegata leaf. This leaf is maybe about half of the eventual fully mature leaf size. It's approximately 20" or so across.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/photo2.jpg

Here is the crinkle at the end of the leaf petiole just before where it joins the leaf.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0971.jpg

Here is my "normal" M. deliciosa. Largest leaves are about 3' across.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0979-1.jpg

Leaf from that plant (I couldn't get back far enough to get the full width of the leaf).
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0981.jpg

Here is the petiole where it joins the leaf. Definite crinkle there.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0982-1.jpg

Here is the leaf of a fully green M. deliciosa borsigiana. I assume this is a mature or nearly mature leaf - it's about 12" to 15" across. This plant is from one of my variegated M. d. borsigiana that reverted to all green. So far, it has been identical to it's variegated parent in all aspects, save for being 100% green with no variegation.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0973-1.jpg

Here is the petiole where it joins the leaf. Notice no crinkle whatsoever - it's completely smooth.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x205/carter-mayer/Monsteras/IMG_0976-1.jpg

Of all plants monstera is one of my favorite genera.

Carter, your "crinkle" is a geniculum. A geniculum is a wrist-like organ located at the apex (tip) of the petiole that allows a leaf to rotate and orient itself in order to control to a degree the sunlight the leaf receives. Geniculum are unique to Anthurium, Spathiphyllum and a select number of aroid genera including Monstera. .

Steve